Western Star

Oh, come on Ian, you need to show us. Some of us know that your 3D drawing has incised lettering and numbering .... and that lettering is readable when the 3D dwg is printed. Next thing we know is that NIck maybe going to ask you for replacement solebars for 4171. regards, Graham

Ends between sides or sides between ends... Until a few minutes back I believed that GW wagons were ends between sides and yet here, for my education, is a statement that requires re-adjustment of my memory. Where did you find this nugget of GW wagon design? regards, Graham

Nick, GWR 1908 wagonary down by the sea-side might require a 3'1", solid spoke, 10 spoke wagon wheel... and that appears solely in the Slater's range. For example, the ballast hoppers to diagram P7. Given that your blog post is - to my mind - about finding what appeals to you in regard to 7mm carriage / wagon wheels then I think that you have covered the most probable bases (especially if availability, consistency, range are valid criteria in the selection process). I do not use Peartree or Roxey because I want pinpoint axles and spoked wheels. I do not use Alan Gibson because of supply worries and loose tyres. I do not use Wizard as, I believe, there is no S7 option. As for Dapol, Heljan, Accurascale... there is no S7 interest from those manufacturers. regards, Graham

Is there a way to "quote" from a blog post? I have copied the bulk of Nick's blog into this post and then inserted my comments. [Start of Nick's blog post] This time I am returning to that ubiquitous item of the early 20th century railway, the private owner coal wagon - in this case, a 6-plank end-door type built by Gloucester RCW, in the livery of 'United' collieries. The model is of course the familiar Slaters kit, and so is very similar to a build to the 'Ocean' wagon I have posted about previously: The big difference with this one is that it is empty, not loaded, so there is full interior detailing needed, and that is the focus of this post. I decided to paint the etches after they were filed to fit, but before gluing them in. I gave them a coat of light grey etch primer, then of a creamy 'new wood' colour, followed by some knots and marks in brown and gunmetal. <GDB> - I have problems with the idea of wagon sheeting circa 1900 - being made from wood with knots. I recall reading, back in the midst of time, that wagon specification carried the phrase "all timber to be free from knots... shakes... and shivers". Now if that applied circa 1900 then draw your own conclusions. Kit, @kitpw, are you able to comment on this point. The etchings have extensions to the ronwork on the end door, to be wrapped around the horizontal bar that forms the pivot to hinge the door. The intention of the etches is the bar sits below the top of the door, and the ends of the bar go into holes in the corner plate either side. Gloucester wagons generally have the bar above the height of the wagon.... <GDB> - sorry to disagree with you on this... the evidence to be found throughout the PO books published by Lightmoor Press is that circa 1900 a good number of Gloster wagons have the door bar passing through the top plank of the sheeting (supported by an eye in the top of the end knee). Later wagon builds do go in the direction that you have described. I made the pieces that support the ends of the bar from some scrap etch: <GDB> - and the plates that stop the bar from coming out of the eyes? The DJ Parkins etches include the capping strips, with etched marks to be pushed out to represent the bolts that hold these in position. <GDB> - as yet I have not seen any contemporary wagon models with the nuts under the curb rail to prevent the capping strip bolts from coming loose. To be clear, I have no experience of the MMP product that Nick has used and I do not wish to offer or imply any criticism of that product. regards, Graham

BTW - I use solely Slater's wheels for my S7 layout so that I get consistent running.

Peco (Steve Haynes, Product / Marketing Manager) said to me - in my capacity pre-Covid as S7 Technical Officer - that Peco bought 7mm wheels from Slaters. In discussion with David White (Slater's supremo), at about the same time that I spoke with Peco, he said that Slater's supplied Peco with 7mm wheels... not surprising as Parkside-Dundas used Slater's 0-FS and S7 wheels for the 7mm kit range. I recollect that Webster's may have manufactured their own 7mm wheels before their range of 7mm kits was taken over by Peco. regards, Graham

For academician I suggest that what you ought to write is "My hypothesis is", of course you can change the text later when you have found the proof of templates/stencils being used at Derby. regards, Graham

The question is simple, I suspect that an answer might not be so easy. What was the capacity of the wagon works at Swindon for the construction of new wagons in the years between 1885 and 1902? That is, how many new wagons were or could be constructed in each of the years from 1885 to 1902 inclusive? Whilst someone having the information to hand is the response that pleases, I suspect that the answer might be reference to some annual statistic which was required by government or board of trade. Pete @K14 any ideas? Thank you if you are able to assist, regards, Graham

Maybe that is how the animals are arranged on the sprue?

Just in case... to avoid confusion... Slater's Plastikard produces wheels for O-gauge (31.5, 32.0 mm) and wheels for S7 track (33mm gauge). Mike, like me, uses the S7 wagon wheelsets from Slaters, the range of wheels for wagons and coaches is here:- https://slatersplastikard.com/wheels/scale7/S7CandW.php The S7 carriage and wagon wheels are available to all, the S7 loco wheels for 33mm gauge track are available only from the S7 Group Stores. regards, Graham

The five involved in this crazy escapade are Chris Brown, Ian Haynes, myself, my son and Tony Overton... yes Stephen, I do mean to say that one of us likes D299, D305 and D351. The status-quo is that we have a 3D model to produce sides, ends, doors and floor for a 4-plk body and that model owes much to GWR dwgs. 7925 and 11939. The model has been printed in Hampshire and in Oxfordshire and is subject to revisions. The underframe is an etch using 10th, 15th and 18th n/s so as to get decent fidelity to the prototype - the phototools require revision to accomodate what we have learnt from dwg. 7925. I shall need to ask permission of those who hold IPR before I can post a photo here of the 3DP body on the n/s underframe. At this time we have not found a photo of a wagon built to dwg.11939... such can be identified, we believe, by counting the number of bolts holding the T stanchions to the end sheeting. So if you can see a four plank wagon with T stanchions and a total of ten bolts (four for the top plank then two for each of the remaining planks) holding one stanchion to the sheeting then please speak up. To complete this bit of the story, the two earliest drawings that we have show a four plank wagon with L angle at the ends and the third dwg in the sequence (7925) has T stanchions with bolts "staggered" so that there is a bolt to the left, then a bolt to the right, followed by a bolt to the left regards, Graham

Returning to the sheet rail support for GWR 4-plk wagons, there is a group of S7 modellers who are collaborating in the construction of 4-plk wagons for our layouts set in the late Victorian / early Edwardian period. The research for this project has found at least 60 photos of 4-plk wagons where the wagon identity is known and there are a good number of those wagons with sheet rails. Of interest to this blog is that there are two versions of where the sheet support is fitted to the end sheeting, viz:- * with the cruciform fitting on the first plank up from the end rail; * with the cruciform fitting on the second plank up from the end rail. We have four dwgs. for four plank wagons, those dwgs. are dated between 1880 and 1899, none of those dwgs. show sheet supports. As yet we have not found a dwg. for the fitting of sheet rails to wagons and neither do we know, yet, if the sheet bar is a part which is common to the different arrangements. regards, Graham

I shall try to follow this approach for our wagons. What colour of "brick" have you used? Roughly how many bricks per layer? thank you, Graham

I wish to purchase a Dragon Models 7mm kit for Trimsaran 3-plank wagon - the base model is Slater's kit no. 7029 to which Dragon Models painted the sides / ends in red and then applied their transfers. thank you, Graham Beare

Thank you, regards, Graham

Where can these photos be found on the CRly web site?

Nick @magmouse, the Peco kit is correct for GWR open wagons. Whilst not included in my post of prototype dimensions the GWR GA dwgs. include the internal door width annoted as "5' 0" in clear". regards, Graham

Thank you "41516", your contribution relieves me from having to find a model shop that stocks the Peco kits. There are five people in the group of S7 modellers who are working towards the same end of a decent body on an accurate underframe, only two of that number are contributers to RM Web (AFAIK). Please can I copy your information about the Peco kit to the other members of the group? regards, Graham

All, Thank you for your contributions to this topic, whilst there has been no cut-n-dry decision as yet the information offered here - thank you Nick - has bolstered our confidence in being able to make a decision that is in line with our original ideas. Turning to Nick's post about his experiences, I have to agree with Nick that we "ignore the underframe at our peril" for both the Peco and Coopercraft kits present challenges in regard to mounting a plastic injection moulded body on an etched underframe. For example:- * the prototype wagon has end stanchions which extend below the body and which are affixed to the headstock - both kits have (most of) the stanchion as part of the end moulding; * the prototype wagon has side knees which bend under the curb rail and are fixed to the front face of the solebar - both kits have part of the side knees moulded on the face of the solebar; * the prototype wagon has door hinge plates which are attached to hinges which are fixed to the front face of the curb rail - both kits reflect this design (which is good if the moulded curb rail remains attaached to the side moulding). Addressing the concerns (above) probably requires removing detail from a moulding... re-instating the plank lines... re-instating the removed detail, noting that 3D prints might be required for the side knees. Not mentioned by Nick is the question of door width and the locations of the knees / hinges for research shows that the Coopercraft kit is not accurate in those respects - note that no measurements have been made of a Peco side as yet. We have access to four drawings of GWR 4-plk wagons, dated from early 1880s to late 1890s - we do not know (yet) if our most recent drawing (by date) is the last drawing issued for these wagons. Drawing 11939 of late 1890s has these measurements:- The relevant dimensions from dwg 11939 in imperial (scale 1:1) and metric (scale 1:43.5):- 1/ internal dimensions * length 15'6" / 108.5mm; * width 7'1" / 49.6mm; * height 2'4" / 16.3mm. 2/ external dimensions * length 16'0" / 112mm; * width 7'6" / 52.5mm; * height 2'7" / 18.08mm. 3/ door details * width on face 5'1" / 35.6mm; * hinge centres 4'5" / 30.9mm; * side knee centres 5'6" / 38.5mm; * hinge width 2 1/2" / 1.46mm. Side sheeting 2 1/2" / 1.46mm. End sheeting 3" / 1.75mm. Second, Cooper craft body (assembled) 1/ internal dimensions * length 108.2mm; * width 50.2mm; * height 16.2mm. 2/ external dimensions * length over sheeting 111.5mm; * width over sheeting 53.4mm; * height including curb rail 17.7mm 3/ door details * width on face 33.3mm; * hinge centres 30.4mm; * side knee centres 36.7mm; * hinge width 1.45mm. Side sheeting 1.57mm. End sheeting 1.75mm. Comparison given as a delta, negative means model is under size. 1/ internal dimensions * length -0.3mm; * width +0.6mm; * height -0.1mm. 2/ external dimensions * length over sheeting -0.5mm; * width over sheeting +0.9mm; * height including curb rail -0.4mm. 3/ door details * width on face -2.3mm; * hinge centres -0.5mm; * side knee centres -1.8mm; * hinge width -0.1mm. Side sheeting +1.3mm. End sheeting 0mm. For now I am accepting the deltas in body width / body length as deviations that were introduced during assembly (because the sides/ends are mitred and there is no positive location for the joins). The major concern here is that the deltas for the door width / hinges / knees are not compatible with an underframe that has been designed using a GWR drawing (11939). A member of the group who are looking at building accurate models of the prototype to S7 track standards has started along the route of cut-n-shut for a set of Coopercraft sides, this is looking promising - the jury is out pending photos of re-worked mouldings after a coat of primer. raham regards, G

Marc, what is the "4plk blog"? Please provide a link or reference... or at least describe the pros and cons. thank you, Graham

Please note that this topic is concerned solely with those parts which form the sides and ends of the body - at the moment any wagon parts below the curb rail are outside the scope of this topic. There are several S7 modellers whose era of interest can be loosely described as late Victorian / early Edwardian GWR... and there is one stand-out design of open wagon from that period, a four plank wagon for which construction started in the late Victorian period and continued into the early years of the Edwardian era. A drawing of this type of wagon can be found in GWR Wagons (pub. Tourret) and photos can be found in several other GWR wagon books ( J H Russell, pub. OPC)... there are several relevant drawings in the NRM GWR C&W catalogue so there is reasonable reference material. Discussions amongst the group of modellers suggests that there is a common desire for an etched wagon underframe and appropriate work towards a set of etch parts is underway. Parts such as buffer stocks, bearing springs, coupling hooks (and springs) are likely to be 3D prints or lost wax castings. The "elephant-in-the-room" is the wagon body - there are three suitable / appropriate / reasonable kits known to me, being:- 1/ WEP etch brass; 2/ Peco ex Webster polystyrene; 3/ Slaters ex Cooper-craft polystyrene. The big question is this - "which kit ought to be considered as the starting point for the intended models and why?". Not a trick question, maybe there is no "best" answer, just a case of seeing what others think about offerings as kits. regards, Graham

Stephen, Ever since you sent a flyer to me I have been puzzling as to how you create a talk with the title "Midland in Berkshire".... and your post above suggests that you have a similar worry. How about telling all of us just how the Midland managed to get a presence in Berkshire? Just one week to go, the Basingstoke S7 Area Group is going to be there to learn about the answer to this question. regards, Graham

For the last fifty years or so I have worked with the solebar back-to-back measurement being 6'0" for wooden solebar wagons and 6'3" for steel channel solebar wagons (this is a generic view, there are some companies which used 5"11" B2B). In 7mm I expect GWR wagons to have solebars which are 42mm apart (at least).... so how do I align my understanding with what you have written in this post? regards, Graham

Swindon has a mutation which is to count the notches in the tooth rack.....

Stephen @Compound2632, A good reply and one which expands upon our knowledge base, thank you. regards, Graham