Natalie

Great photo Paul- one of my favourite locations! An LNWR type box (in use as a shunt frame )and AC overhead electrics- what more can a girl ask for?

This picture illustrates for me why locations such as Littleton's with no station are such an attractive proposition for a model. Kinsley Colliery is a layout that shares the same philosophy as mine and ticks all the boxes.

I look forward to seeing it develop.

Okies - leave it to me! Ian any specific location you are interested in?

Spot on- I omitted the 'via' as I would otherwise write pages of the stuff! Just goes to show that if you scratched the surface the Southern Region was far more than 'just a multiple unit' with many interesting workings abounding- such as the parcels/news/vans trains that would often carry a BSK or a 3-Set L for passenger accommodation going to such places as Eastbourne. Maybe I should start a new topic with these if people are interested enough?

Hi Gareth,

No your memory isn't playing tricks with you. According to the Summer 1986 Appendix to Carriage Working Notice the WR 5-Sets were booked to formed almost as you describe- SK,2x BSK,CK,SK (all Mk1) worked by diagrams CF150-158,170,179. Certainly photos of the time show there was variation in what Cardiff Canton actually sent out in the sets. Mk2a BFK being common for instance.

Rick your mention of a buffet car on the Brighton-Penzance workings has caused me to take a look in the May 1988 CWN. The workings have been cut back from Penzance to Plymouth. I have extracted the workings below:

LA245 (3 TSO,2 BFK,TSOT,3 TSO) AB/EH Mk2 stock

1O98 0550 SO Exeter St. Davids- Hove a 1010

5V12 1035 SO ECS Hove- Brighton a 1038

1V00 1105 SO Brighton- Plymouth a

5O05 xxxx SO Plymouth- Exeter St. Davids a

2O05 2030 SO Exeter St. Davids- Basingstoke a 2310

5B67 2335 SO ECS Basingstoke- Eastleigh Depot a 0020

LA249 (3 TSO,2 BFK,TSOT,3 TSO) AB/EH Mk2 stock

1O86 0933 SO Plymouth- Brighton a 1520

5O86 1555 SO ECS Brighton- Lovers Walk CS a 1615

works circuit LA252 next day

LA252 (3 TSO,2 BFK,TSOT,3 TSO) AB/EH Mk2 stock

5V18 1632 SUN ECS Lovers Walk CS- Brighton a 1647

1V18 1710 SUN Brighton- Plymouth

LA248 (3 TSO,2 BFK,TSOT,3 TSO) AB/EH Mk2 stock

5T03 0541 SX ECS Eastleigh Depot- Salisbury a 0643

2L20 0704 SX Salisbury- Waterloo a 0843

1P15 0922 SX Waterloo- Ports Hbr a 1046

5P15 1105 SX ECS Ports Hbr- Fratton CS a 1115

5V12 1135 SX ECS Fratton CS- Ports Hbr a 1146

1V12 1159 SX Ports Hbr- Plymouth a

LA249 (3 TSO,2 BFK,TSOT,3 TSO) AB/EH Mk2 stock

1O28 0940 SX Plymouth- Ports Hbr a 1428

5028 1445 SX ECS Ports Hbr- Fratton CS a 1455

5P40 1508 SX ECS Fratton CS- Ports Hbr a 1518

1P40 1530 SX Ports Hbr- Waterloo a 1658

1L13 1734 SX Waterloo- Salisbury a 1916

5T31 2050 SX ECS Salisbury- Eastleigh Depot a 2139

Essentially by this time the Brighton-Plymouth service was worked by WR sets used usually on Waterloo- West of England services. Sets were operated on circuits which were generally on weekly cycles- the change usually occuring over the weekend. Sets were often worked to Plymouth as passenger trains as a means of getting the sets to/from Laira CS. The workings above are part of more involved circuit workings and involve in addition to the Waterloo- WoE workings some short workings along that route on local passenger services as well as Eastleigh Depot having a large input each night into the servicing of the sets.

I hope the above has been of some interest and helps to show the way coaching sets are worked around cyclical diagrams to cover the services required.

To put some meat on the bones from Summer 1985:

On Monday- Friday:

all the Portsmouth services are formed of a WR VB/EH 5-Set(2 SK,BSK,CK,SK)

2 sets were stabled overnight at Fratton:

1O93 1810 Cardiff- Ports Hbr a 2201- worked 2V58 0656 Ports Hbr- Bristol TM (Sats works 2V56)

2O95 2020 Bristol TM- Ports Hbr a 2319- worked 2V56 0550 Ports Hbr- Bristol TM (Sats works 2V58)

Also a WR VB/EH 5-Set(2 SK,BSK,CK,SK) was:

1O85 1610 Bristol TM- Brighton a 1924 worked next day's 1V22 0830 Brighton- Cardiff a 1245

AB/EH SR 8-Set K (3 SK,2 BCK,3 SK) were used on:

1V12 1114 FO Brighton- Penzance a 1850 (works 1086 1050 to Brighton next day)

On Saturday:

Most services formed of WR VB/EH 5-Set(2 SK,BSK,CK,SK) except:

1V22 0830 Brighton- Cardiff a 1245

1O83 1400 Cardiff- Ports Hbr a 1752

1V31 1810 Ports Hbr- Bristol TM a 2041

The above set was an SR 8-Set H (airbraked and ETH)and had spent the week working East Grinstead line services

1085 1610 Bristol TM- Brighton was formed of a WR VB/EH 5-Set(2 SK,BSK,CK,SK). (It returned next day (Sun) on 1V34 1617 Brighton- Bristol)

AB/EH SR 8-Set K (3 SK,2 BCK,3 SK) were used on:

1O86 1050 Penzance- Brighton a 1813 (works 1V25 1017 SUN Brighton- Cardiff)

AB/EH SR 8-set J (4 TSO,BSK,FK(Mk2a),2 TSO) 1000v ETH used on:

1V10 0914 Brighton- Penzance a 1648 (returns on 1O22 1410 SUN Penz- Waterloo). The set had been used during Friday between Waterloo and Exeter St Davids and worked to Brighton ECS from Clapham.

The following were a WR VB/DH set (SK,BSK,CK,3 SK,CK,BSK,SK):

1067 0805 Cardiff- Ports Hbr a 1145

1V26 1210 Ports Hbr- Cardiff a 1533

Again two WR VB/EH 5-Set(2 SK,BSK,CK,SK) were stabled overnight at Fratton:

1O91 1710 Cardiff- Ports Hbr a 2050- worked 1V37 1915 SUN Ports Hbr- Cardiff a 2248

2O95 1940 Weston Super Mare- Ports Hbr a 2317- worked 1V21 0915 SUN Ports Hbr- Cardiff a 1256

Sundays:

The SR 8 Set H(3 TSO,BSK,FK (Mk2a),3 TSO) (EH/AB) 750v ETH was still out and about:

1O67 0755 Cardiff- Ports Hbr a 1140

1V27 1315 Ports Hbr- Cardiff a 1655

1O93 1750 Cardiff- Ports Hbr a 2141

5P14 2214 Ports Hbr- Clapham Yard a 2349

This set then stabled at Clapham Yard for a week before working 5Y48 0032 SUN ECS to New Cross Gate ready to spend the week on London Bridge- East Grinstead line workings.

However between 6th July and 7th Sept inc it worked 1V08 0837 SO Waterloo- Exeter St Davids, returning on 1O14 1220 Exeter St Davids- Waterloo before retiring back to Clapham Yard then working 5Y48 to New Cross Gate the next morning.

All other Portsmouth-Bristol/Cardiff trains on a Sunday were formed of WR VB/EH 5-Set(2 SK,BSK,CK,SK). Two sets stabled overnight at Fratton:

1O97 1945 Cardiff- Ports Hbr a 2325- worked Monday's 2V58 0656 Ports Hbr- Bristol TM

1099 2145 Bristol TM- Ports & Sthsea a 0024- worked Monday's 2V56 0550 Ports Hbr- Bristol TM

AB/EH SR 8-Set K (3 SK,2 BCK,3 SK) were used on:

1V25 1017 Brighton- Cardiff a 1507

1O76 1705 Cardiff- Brighton a 2139

5Y24 2155 Brighton- Clapham Yard ECS a 2330

The set was stabled at Clapham Yard over the week before returning early next Friday morning to Brighton for 1V12 1114 FO Brighton-Penzance.

WR VB/EH 5-Set(2 SK,BSK,CK,SK)

1V34 1617 Brighton- Bristol TM a 1958

As can be seen (hopefully) there was a mixture of stock utilised on the Portsmouth services- including SR air braked stock at the weekends. They also seem to be closely integrated with Brighton-West of England services. Also be aware that booked formations were not always adhered to- especially the WR 5-Sets.

I hope the above is of some interest and heps to unravels some of the workings.

Just noticed the question about Cardiff-Crewe sets interworking. I don't have a WR CWN for 1985 but do have a complete set of SR divisions and the WR one for 1981- that might be of interest? I also have the loco diagrams for the SR SWD for Summer 1981 and 1983 which show quite a lot of interworking of the class 33s.

I would recommend joining Robert Carroll's excellent BRCoaching Stock yahoo group where the files contain all manner of carriage working notices.

Let me know if I can assist further.

I have the carriage working notice for the South Western Division for Summer 1985 if the info is of interest. Bear in mind that the LN Cardiff-Portsmouth service ceased with the introduction of the May 1988 timetable when they were replaced by class 155 SuperSprinters.

Bit of useless info- 70012 is the loco featured in the recent RM article on class 70 construction. Seeing it in its unpainted and fresh state is actually quite sad knowing what has happened to it since.

Incidentally has the crane driver come down yet- if it was me I certainly would still be up there hiding!

Some people seem to indicate problems with these locos and insuniate/speculate as to their efficiency, are they considered as prototypes or are the new batch (70007-12) now being delivered considered as production locos?

You have also omitted a Tardis, Dalek, Trotters Independent Trading Van, Grim Reaper, run-over "The End is Nigh" man,

Coming back from the NEC after the model railway exhibition last year, I was confronted by the sight of a full size Dalek complete with a Matt Smith lookalike waiting on the platform for a train to Coventry. Train pulls in (class 350/1)and Dalek boards train with assistance of the loading ramp. A bit unnerving sharing a door vestibule with a life sized Dalek pointing his weapons at you. What was amusing was the fact that most people on the train took absolutey no notice. We all got off (weapon now averted) at Coventry where Doctor Who led his aluminium companion off along the platform, over the footbridge and through the booking hall- and no-one batted an eyelid!

(There had been an event on at the NEC which the Dalek had attended- as an exhibitor..)

You may be right.

 

I was driving past, and came upon the place by accident, circa early 90s.

 

Didn't make a note of where I was (very unusual for me).

 

Brian R

I would agree with Kev (did you visit me when I worked Croft?)that the pic is not Croft. The loading lines curved round from the mainline in a semi horse shoe shape. There were two adjacent single lines which both went under the loader although the left hand one was the only one I remember being used for wagons.Tucked away at the end of the two sidings was a crossover road to allow running round- I can't recall it being used when I was there, wagons being shunt released with the train engine if needed.

I had no problems getting round the quarry but then the staff knew who I was. We also used to park our cars in the quarry opposite (where they stored concrete blocks) where we could see them. During the heavy snow during late 1990 I was at Croft keeping it open on the night shift because of snow. By the time I went in the morning the snow was quite deep resulting in me being unable to get up the quarry access road without digging it clear- much to the amusement of the ECC staff and lorry drivers!

Shame I never took many photos at Croft- and then none in the quarry itself.

 

RR10256 at the loading point at Croft quarry, Leics. sometime in the early 90s. My brother and I had walked along a footpath next to the BR Nuneaton-Leicester line and watched as a class 56 reversed a load of empties into the exchange siding. Minutes later a TH 0-6-0DH appeared out of the quarry and was coupled up to the train. The driver, seeing us taking photos of his engine, asked if we'd like a ride. Is the Pope a Catholic? He shouted up to the signalman in the box on our side of the line, who confirmed there were no trains coming, and we crossed over and got onboard the loco. A couple of minutes later and we were in the quarry. The Rolls Royce was the spare loco.

I was a Leicester Manual Relief Signalman during the early 1990s and often worked Croft Sidings box. Apart from the virtually LNWR interior the box lacked such niceties as track circuits or dollies to control set back movements over the slip/crossing into the sidings from the down side (from Leicester). Added to that was the fact that the line was curved making set back movements really difficult. The shunter at Croft was legendary and got up to all sorts of mischief... The fact that it wasn't supposed to come out onto the mainline didn't stop it coming to Hinckley one night- but that is another story...

Hi

Continue to enjoy reading about this excellent layout. Love the fact that it appears to be designed along railway principles and is operated along those lines. Love the correct variety of stock and also the point rodding. Bet it is a lovely place to work in the ice and snow with all that mechanical detection and FPLs... But what would really enhance the Midland Region atmosphere and lift the layout to another level is an LNWR type 4 or 5 signalbox or even a Midland Region type 15.

Hi

Continue to enjoy reading about this excellent layout. Love the fact that it appears to be designed along railway principles and is operated along those lines. Love the correct variety of stock and also the point rodding. Bet it is a lovely place to work in the ice and snow with all that mechanical detection and FPLs... But what would really enhance the Midland Region atmosphere and lift the layout to another level is an LNWR type 4 or 5 signalbox or even a Midland Region type 15.

That looks very nice indeed. That conversion kit will I feel spawn quite a few of these distinctive units. A welcome development in multiple unit modelling. Any chance of an etch to produce a 150/0 or 150/1 end for those who might like to convert a Bratchell unit (to either a 150/0 or 154 or in conjunction with this kit to the Track Recorder Unit)?

For those modelling the 1974-79 period there is the GWS 'Vintage Train' to consider which included 7372 in its formation. The story of this set of coaches is told in the new edition of 'Heritage Railway.' Something different to run behind your mainline registered Halls and Castles or behind WR class 31 and 47s or even a class 76.

Hi

Just a quick post to say that I am enjoying following the life of this layout- is it set c 1986?As an signalman- in ex LNWR boxes with the best type of levers- ie stirrup catch handles- I must reiterate what Mr Skipsey has been urging- get that box sorted out! An LNWR type 4 (or 5) would be nice but you could also consider a BR Midland Region Type 15 also or even an LMS type 11. Dave also gives good advice in that you need to signal the layout as it would have been when which ever box you use was constructed which then gives you the amount of levers required and the length of box. I find this then gives the right size looking box for the area.

If you have not seen it already a copy of Richard Foster's "LNWR Signalling"- long OOP- is well worth a look as it is filled with photos and drawings of boxes and signals. It also details some of the idiosyncracies of the LNWR which would have an impact on the size of box used should you go for an LNWR box. Namely the LNWR was very reluctant to use ground signals and tended to opt for hand signals from the box wherever possible to save money. This feature would be a feature of ex-LNWR areas with almost a total lack of dollies where you would otherwise expect them- Croft Sidings being an example of this. Ground signals would generally only be provided for exit moves from sidings or if the movement could not be safely controlled by a handisgnal from the box. Another feature was the use of 2 levers to control a crossover- one lever would work each end instead of working both- this was to apparently save on maintenance but it meant more levers were required and often meant a bigger box compared to other companies was provided. In BR times additional dollies etc could be installed to suit traffic requirements but if the layout has been rationlaised and new dollies etc provided then relocking of the frame might occur.

My other interest is in coaching stock- I have the 1986/87 Passenger Train Marshalling book for the LMR if that is of any use to you as well as an article on WCML Train Formations for 1986/87- initially looking at the London bound services but detailing the workings along the Coast that utilised sets that went to Euston at some point. If they are of any interest then please let me know.

Hi

I have seen this layout at Stafford and Showcase and have been mightily impressed by it. It is to my mind one of the best of the current exhibition layouts around at the moment. Well modelled and avoids what I feel is a modelling cliché- that of a station taking up all the room. This allows for a bit of railway where you can see what is going on and just watch the trains run by- much as you would at the lineside. In addition there is scope for shunting in the sidings. All in all something different and a new take on the depot themed layout.

I'm still shocked by The Mighty Men winning. I was driving home from work listening to the second half on the radio and when Crouchie scored nearly crashed the car on a mini roundabout. It has been commented at work today that I have lost my voice- can't think why. And Stoke won too- that's a good proportion of my current 'customers' happy then! Well done to Harry and the lads- Dawson, King, Crouchie and Jermain D have to go to the World Cup.

Remember Spurs fans- next season ends in a one and we all know what that means for the Spurs- a trophy!

As an almost lifelong Spurs fan (well since I was 9 in 1976 ) its reassuring to see that the old traditions at The Lane still live on. Once again we find ourselves in the situation of having to play the matches of our lives to remain in the position that we have been in for the vast majority of the season.

Even if we are beating Man City 5-0 with 1 minute to go I still won't trust them not to throw it away- it's happened too many times for comfort. I said to someone at work that we would lose to Portsmouth (as we did to Wolves and Stoke- and boy did I get stick for that from the inmates) then beat Arsenal and Chelsea... But overall it's been a good season so well done to the lads.

All I can say to the rest of the Premier League for next season is forget those sky blue upstarts from Manchester, look out for the Spurs- the year ends in 1 and we all know what happens then.

Hi

I have just had a look at your layout pictures today for the first time and I have to say I like very much what I see. Haven't seen any signals yet but I'm sure they are there! If they aren't and you need assistance with their placing then please shout and I'd be happy to help.

I like many others it seems, the MoD trains especially. Normally I am not keen on Peco track but looking at a number of layouts such as the magnificent Widnes Vine Yard, Pete Harvey's two and yours it CAN be made to look good- they key I feel is the weathering and ballasting. The painting of the rail to remove the shiny silver finish is crucial in achieving a good look.

Once again many thanks for sharing this fine layout of yours and I look forward eagerly to more photos/progress.

Can I suggest joining Robert Carroll's British Railway Coaching Stock yahoo group. There is a file in the archives that details all the known pre-nationalisation design passenger carrying stock that carried blue/grey. There are also some photographs of the Gresley design. One of the last vehicles to be withdrawn we have now on the GCR (9124E) which although it has been repainted in crimson/cream it remains bodily in as-withdrawn (ie rebuilt) condition. It is currently out of use awaiting some repairs. I may have some photos that are useful to you if require them.

Regarding the Fort William sleeper I have never heard of the use of Gresley buffets on this. Maybe things are getting muddled up a little with another service- The Night Limited. For a while (c1969-1975) two interesting vehicles were allocated to this service which ran nightly between Euston and Glasgow Central in both directions. Two sets of stock were provided to operate these all sleeper services. Also included was a buffet service- provided by two ex Pullman cars branded as 'Nightcap Bar' one running in each set. One was a MetCamm design Mk1 M354E - as made by Bachmann whilst the other was M310E which was a 1951 Pullman originally built for the Golden Arrow as 'Pegasus'. Of interest is that both cars carried conventional blue/grey livery with a full length red catering band and lettered 'Nightcap Bar'. Pegasus is the vehicle that was rebuilt and now works as part of the charter fleet.

OK - I'll do it - what are we going to nickname these things ???????

Why do they need to have a nickname? Why not just refer to them as 'class 70s.' I am sorry but I find this obsession to create often fake nicknames for everything to be more than a little irritating.

I also think I must be in the minority in saying that who gives a monkeys what it looks like? The important things are inside- how much can it haul and stop, is it a comfortable workplace for the traincrew and can the maintenance crew get at the insides easily enough? For the people who will have to work on and with these locos looks will be the last concern on their mind. Priorities to them will be- can it brew tea and will it get them home in time to book off. Maybe I am looking at it from a railwayman's viewpoint rather than an enthusiast?

Let's just rejoice in some new traction, welcome the variety and be grateful that its wheels are flanged and not fitted with pneumatic tyres.

Now for a lie down!!!

Puts speculation hat on and add some more speculation coal to the fire..

Don't forget that we had City of Truro on the GCR for a short while last year. Bachmann offices are in Barwell which is well within driving distance (as it is to The Battlefield Line..) being approx 30 miles at most. (We are also the location of the GCR 04 and had the LNWR Super D for a while too...)

I am not aware though that anybody from Bachmann were at the GCR it.

Takes speculation hat off...

The author of the kettle module is a retired signalman. Who else is there to write such a module- signalman are the masters of tea making on the railway - unlike that bizarre concoction made by traincrews...