RichardS

Anonymity - I don't understand why people don't use their real names on these forums. I am of course assuming that Vistiaen is not your real name. Perhaps it is. Nor is there a signature. The point being that it is always easy to stand on an ego sustaining soap box - which is what these forums are really - when nobody has any idea who you really are. My own view is that no posts should be permitted unless the originator's own name appears - this applies to Twitter, Facebook, everywhere. But that's just my view There would be less of the offensive and often vile trolling if people were made to be accountable for their public comments. (I'm not suggesting any of the excesses apply to this dialogue) If folk generally are worried about privacy - don't go online. There's scores of places information can be obtained by hackers other than model railway forums - where the most contentious information available might be one's views of a toy train and the accuracy of its whistle moulding (for example.) Basic identity information is easily obtained from non-internet sources. For example your name and address appear on almost every letter your postman delivers. Your Computer World link by the way goes to a 'page not found' - well it does for me. Now that you've told us of your offer to be of service to C&L I'm not sure I understand your sentiments about trading with them or a competitor. But there we are. As I have never offered to invest time and effort in support or to help my local corner shop, book shop or pub whether I shop there or with a major retailer is I feel rather irrelevant. But if I had I would support them if I could even if things cost a bit more. But that's me. If I didn't propose to trade with them I would be unlikely to offer to be of service to them in the first place. John (Hayfield) has kindly suggested, in another post, that I might not understand the difficulties and frustrations of sourcing goods across frontiers when the supplier might not be up to speed. He is of course correct I have no direct experience but I have had a friend living in Europe who experienced supply difficulties due to the distance. I suggested that he should let me know what he wanted and then I would source the items meaning that the sale was in the UK either at an exhibition or by internal mail order or in a shop. Such a strategy could be helpful for others with friends in Blighty who might be willing to help especially where contacting a retailer from abroad proves difficult. (This is meant to be a constructive suggestion) One muses what impact Brexit might have if there are additional delays to goods because of customs problems. Once again we shall see what happens. For me it's time to draw a line under this increasingly pointless strand of this overall thread. I just hope Phil gets sorted out so that everybody can move on.

Undoubtedly. And there's nothing wrong in looking for the best deal provided consumers don't screw themselves in the process. Clearly Andrew, unless he is a charity, will expect a return on his reinvestment in Exactoscale. Phil at C&L has to make a living too. As Martin Wynne observed sometimes contracting the range and distribution is a means to ensuring profitability. We see this with the similar voluntary arrangements being entered into by high street stores such as House of Fraser which is closing half it's shops in an attempt to avoid administration. Whether the market will sustain two competing providers of track components is debatable. If C&L could not survive with the combined range for whatever reason, two sole traders will be far more vulnerable. At the very least I expect price rises, reduction of ranges and eventually only one supplier again. There will be much more leaping in the air and 'knicker waving' from the disgruntled before this saga settles down.

Thank you for your totally anonymous contribution (not even a picture - of anything) which I feel illustrates some of my earlier points rather. A new slant introduced by your post is the inference of a 'right' to be able to buy the parts and if not the threat to transfer business. "I am customer meet my needs or suffer the consequences." Many on this and other forums 'should like to be able to buy' - but if impossible; 'putting one's parts on' or 'getting stroppy' is hardly likely to magically generate a solution to the situation. It is an interesting interpretation you make of there being a second future source for Exactoscale parts. I had rather assumed that Exactoscale/Andrew Jukes - of whom much is clearly expected - would be the only source rather than there being a choice of suppliers, at least in the short or even medium term. I'm sure we shall find out in due course.

Of course there are some who are more wealthy always have been always will be. In Yarmouth those who run the amusement arcades etc and possibly those working offshore would be good examples But as you will see from the House of Commons briefing paper dated April 2018 - link below- this shows both the Great Yarmouth and Waveney constituencies have high unemployment (coloured dark read on the first map) compared to the rest of Norfolk and Suffolk and most of the south of England. In fact GY is the 10th highest rate in the country at 7.4% (just behind some of the inner cities!) and witnessed a 14% yearly increase while Waveney is 5.5% and witnessed an 18% increase. http://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/CBP-8286/CBP-8286.pdf Obviously the more who are unemployed to begin with the lower the % increase in unemployed compared to areas of higher employment which might have similar numbers finding them selves out of work. The second link provides data for average income for taxpayers in Norfolk and Suffolk by district council. Great Yarmouth, Waveney and Fenland are the three lowest. The whole region is 15% below the national average. http://www.edp24.co.uk/business/norfolk-suffolk-average-income-below-national-rate-breckland-broadland-yarmouth-waveney-north-south-norfolk-kings-lynn-1-5469373 In the tax year 2018/19 any adult earning the national living wage of 7.83 and working 29 hours per week or less will not be a tax payer (TR 11850). Young adults would be working for longer as the NMW is less for them. A lot of people here are part time and earn the minimum. On the data it is the southern Suffolk and North Essex districts which are the highest. This is for one main reason - commuting distance to London. Thus a proportion of the taxpayers here are earning London levels of pay which slews the data. Traditional high-manpower industries such as food processing have all closed in both GY an LT. Bird's Eye peas are no longer packed at Yarmouth or Lowestoft and consequently the farmers who grew them in the East no longer do so. Food canning at Lowestoft has gone - the Mortons/CWS plants closed long ago, the Pye TV factory - closed, Shipbuilders - Brooke Marine and Richard's (no connection) gone, the North Sea Oil and Gas industry plateaued a long time ago. Eastern Coachworks (mentioned above) gone. The only new industry to really offer any replacement for just a part of all this is the offshore wind farms. There used to be a Ro-Ro service at GY - Norfolk Line - moved to Felixstowe decades ago. Curiously Pasta is made in GY and exported. http://www.pastafoods.com/ (It's also made in Norwich) It is impossible to comment on the people drinking outside Weatherspoon's as I know of their personal circumstances no more than you do and to base an assumption about a whole town or the wealth of the residents on such a small example is disingenuous. How do you know all the empties were theirs? Did you ask them? Individuals everywhere will be entrepreneurial but most people are not, so again to cast aspersions upon the energies of a population by highlighting a small number of notable examples is to slight the majority who are ordinary working people given the chance. I'm not sure how a lack of foreign workers will increase wages for local seasonal workers who must already be paid the minimum wage. Paying them more will cause prices to rise unless the assumption is that the local seasonal workers will work more hours. Which is not unreasonable except for one point - such seasonal work is usally characterised by long hours already such is the nature of the need to harvest or serve the needs of the holidaymaker. The only impact of a lack of 'foreign pickers' will be to cause shortages in the shops and hence a price rise to consumers - it's happened already with some farmers not able to harvest their perishable crops and thus incurring losses rather than being able to reward their workers with higher wages. It's an interesting concept. But next year these farmers will not be growing the cash crops - probably go over to rape or maize. Which don't make make great salads. Just because a person is 'unemployed' does mean they are fit for any or every kind of work. Of course there are lazy scoundrels here as much as any where else. But 'not being in work' does not arise from only one cause. Generalisations are always dangerous. (For example all young people in Essex - drive Ford Cortinas, appear to be orange skinned and rejoice in the names of Sharon and Dwayne. Well the two I met in 1976 were.) While some of these 'foreign pickers' are in the East and South of Norfolk the majority are in the West (which is the really flat bit called The Fens and Marshland - yes, there is a difference) where the fruit and veg are grown. In the East and Suffolk where the crops are mainly rape, barley (much for malting and some exported from Yarmouth), beet (processed at Cantley Bury St Edmunds and Wissington) and potatoes - machines are used for harvesting. No longer the ruddy faced cider pickled yokel with scythe and pitchfork tossing sheaves into thresher or, be-smocked and flailing the grain twixt the open doors of the flint cobbled, thatched barn while those from the workhouse glean the field margins. (Heck I'm sounding like Ian Rice!) So many people living in the London catchment and the commuter towns of the south east have absolutely no idea what life is like in the extremities of the country for the indigenous residents - Cornwall, parts of East Anglia, the North East, the Fens, parts of the North West, Wales, the Humber area etc etc. Some people in these places - Norfolk and Cornwall particularly - cannot afford to live in the places where they were born because the affordable housing is actually unaffordable to them. Parts of the North Norfolk Coast for example are ghost villages in the winter - the houses owned by rich Londoners as holiday homes and maybe let out in the season to urban foragers and the pretty wellie brigade - but there's no real work anyway. I could go on (and on and on and on - no, really). But one last little fact. You might think Norwich - home of the old Norwich Union Insurance Societies (God rest their souls), a wonderful cathedral, big castle etc was a bit better? By the 1970's Norwich had the highest proportion of council housing in the whole country. The whole country. Not an inner city, not a conurbation, but a smallish, very old, market city in the middle of the granary of England. https://municipaldreams.wordpress.com/2015/09/22/council-housing-in-norwich-i-thought-we-were-ever-so-posh/ That's all.

Probably why they had to replace them.

It's very easy to comment on anything these days via online forums with the sanctuary of anonymity and the safety net of distance. It's also very easy to find fault with the behaviour of others. We humans are adept at this in all spheres of life. We find it far harder to offer solutions. If individuals are unhappy with the C&L situation I observe that any of us had the chance to buy C&L and to run it as we perceive to be 'the right way.' In fact anybody could offer to buy it from him now. For the right price he might sell who knows. Any of us could volunteer to lend the proprietor a hand to sort things out. He might not accept. But apart from John (Hayfield who helps at shows) has anybody offered? Any of us could start a new business making track components. There's only so much point in negatively criticising a situation for so long, after a while the activity becomes utterly pointless. Then is the time to take alternative actions in pursuit of your personal goals. There is always an alternative.

Don't get the impression that GY & LT are dirty wastelands - they are not - both ports support the oil, gas and windfarms industries and Yarmouth at least still has merchantmen visiting the port. The seaside of all three is still quite nice but no where near as vibrant as in the past. Beaches are pretty good and Yarmouth particularly still has a lot of 'commercial' attractions for families. The principle problems are economic - many of the people are not wealthy, the jobs can be seasonal and low paid and this impacts the shopping areas. The towns are all at the end of the road, the communications are bad, industries that remain are small and very niche, there is no major manufacturing to speak of. The outlook for many young people is not hopeful. Both GY and LT were categorised as 'deprived' and allegedly allocated money. GY has invested a lot in the seafront and this weekend has a largish airshow for the first time. The long gone electric motor boats were in Kensington Gardens (which are in Kirkley I think; next place down the coast before Pakefield) - they' weren't dodgems really but I suspect some did bump them. Like Dodgems though they did collect current from an overhead web via a sort of mast. In retrospect it appears quite a dangerous arrangement. Parrs model railway shop is on London Road South. I think Mr Parr retired a while back but his daughter was continuing to run the business. Did art materials as well. Hannant's of course was the other shop with a model department in London Road North. The toy/model shop closed but the business operates out of a warehouse in Oulton Broad - in the scale model market (kits and bits.)

Indeed it is. Though I don't think anybody has suggested otherwise. It's a sort of frontier town politically in Suffolk but probably closer to Norfolk socially. I doubt many workers commute to Ipswich. Two interesting railway aspects were the branch line into the fish docks and the sleeper depot where sleepers were creosoted etc. I think the little sentinels worked at the sleeper depot at one time.

Always has been a town of at least two halves, Lowestoft. Always the poor relation to Yarmouth except for deeper sea trawling when it's fleet outlasted GY for a time until that too succumbed to falling fish stocks and rationalisation and economies of scale etc. Seafront - South Lowestoft pleasant but no longer has putting greens, boating lakes, miniature railway etc. North Lowestoft - dying shopping centre. Main claim to fame is that Hannants is based at Oulton Broad - which actually isn't Low'Stuf (Norfolkese) anyway. It's a shame.

I must have missed the moans. Too engrossed in the good natured banter.

If only the photo showed the knees.

If only the photo showed the knees.

Roy's of Wroxham, a well respected local trader with many stores across the county, does not to the best of my knowledge have any involvement in WMW. At least it didn't when it opened.

In 1976 most people worked 9 to 5, there was no Sunday trading as we have now and many families survived on one wage earner. Nowadays with all the social and work changes which I'm not going to list life is so different and people generally so tired I feel their energies are diverted in surviving. Not less stern just busier overall. And often knackered.

As we say in Norfolk "ther's a lud o' squit' on here about exhibition times. For the vast majority of exhibitions 10-4.30 is perfectly adequate. If a punter arrives at 10 and is still walking avidly around after 6.5 hours they're either on something or need help. Sometimes you have to accept you cannot see everything and I think it is incumbent upon the organisers of the big exhibitions to make plans and details available beforehand so people can organise their day. For the Ally Pally show this was a serious omission - the hall plans were available on the organiser's commercial site but were aimed at exhibitors mainly. Railex, Warley etc all make floor plans available. Of course some folk cannot get to a venue for the opening time but that's not the organiser's fault. It is up to punters to make arrangements to suit their circumstances. Long journey - you might have to stay overnight. More cost but then you want to go to the event. Complicated journey - you might have to leave earlier or accept a shorter visit. One of my colleagues left his home before 7, and we left Norwich at 7.20 arriving at Ally Pally (having made another pick up) at 9.25 after an easy journey via A11. M11, North Circular, Wood Green etc. Easy to park, courtesy bus up the hill, cup of coffee and we're in the hall at about 10.05. We stuck it out til the end but by 16.00 (or maybe earlier) we'd had enough. Home at 18.50. Having exhibited a layout in the 90's I found 6.5 hours of repetitive playing trains was enough to drive me to semi-insanity. My layout was probably boring and I'm not keen on operating but by early mid afternoon we were usually only running a train when a visitor stopped to look. Talking to people was probably the most rewarding aspect of exhibiting - oh and the people watching of course. Exhibiting a model at an exhibition is a voluntary activity and visitors need to remember that. While it is true that having paid an admission fee they can and should have a reasonable expectation of receiving some entertainment which represents value for money this is of course a very vague description. You cannot expect to see a village hall full of large superfine accurate model railways from the four corners of the country unless it is advertised as such. Similarly you cannot expect to see a whole sports centre full of set-track tail chasers if the event is targeted at the more specialised sectors of the market. Allusion was made to other entertainment types. I think this is valid. Each of us has a finite amount of money to spend on the things which amuse us and occupy our free time. Some have more of everything some less. We choose to spend what we can of this this on what we hope will please us. If we are not pleased we cannot really complain unless what we have received is not what we thought we had bought. Thus if a football team loses there is no complaint because a win was not promised. If an exhibition does not meet our expectations we have to review whether it was the advertising that was at fault or whether it was our own expectations that have misled us. If the latter it's tough. If the former then they may be room to complain but such situation will be very rare. You cannot complain if the exhibits are not to your taste - (nothing for me here - oops sorry wrong thread). As most exhibitions list their exhibits and attractions on the UK Model Shops website it is not unreasonable for event organisers to expect potential visitors use the information they make available. In other words do your research. Traders are in a no-win situation. Of course all their prices are too high. They conspire together to fix prices. They haven't got what people want. They want to start packing up early if trade is slow. Certain ones aren't there and old Fred specifically wanted to spend 3/6 with W&H Models. They all stock the same things (er???? whose fault is that?) The second hand stock is mostly rubbish (whose fault is that?) and the good stuff is too dear. Can't imagine why they bother. The preceding sentences are of course satirical in case there is any doubt. Every trader is there to make money - it's their living and I'm sure most do their very best. And I for one thank them for being at exhibitions. Some have complained about lack of bargains. It all depends upon what you were looking for, and how hard you looked I guess. One of my colleagues found two very keenly priced brand new rtr locos which he was looking for. The particular exhibition under discussion in this thread is not Warley. Although commercially organised I feel as an outsider that there is still a degree of 'localness' to Ally Pally. Localness to London that is. Yes one or two big names are there but then it's a big exhibition. But there are stalls there which are similar to those seen at smaller events in more remote localities. The amount of second hand traders give that feeling I think. I saw several families and I saw one little lad a approach Rails to ask questions. What I am saying is just because Hornby and Bachmann have stands there's still a local flavour here. Another thing I will mention and which struck me was an increased diversity among the visitors. Although dominated by white males there definitely seemed to be a larger number of people from communities we don't traditionally associate with railway modelling. I really hope that this is trend which continues as there are many potential modellers in these communities which will strengthen and broaden the wider hobby. One contributor above mentioned Warley being open until 6 - yes it's very quiet I've been there after 5 but the layouts are getting ready for the next day - cleaning, reorganising stock etc and the traders are tidying and restocking shelves. It's not really open as it is actually closing down in that period. (It's lovely actually!) Of course things will sometimes go wrong - specific things affecting one person - but I have seen no reason for anybody to complain about the way any of the exhibitions I have visited over the years have been presented or organised when a rational and reasonable assessment of the circumstances are considered. Long may they continue. So there!

A few pics on Flickr which may be of interest. Hebble Vale Goods and Leighton Buzzard mainly but also some of the sample little locos - P, B4, Barclay - that 2018 will become famous for. Here's the link: https://www.flickr.com/photos/richardjslipper/

I found some pdf floor plans and a separate list of exhibitors with stand numbers on the Warner's Exhibitions web site under the section for this show. You have to look for it. I think this is aimed at exhibitors rather than the GP. (I note there are a handful of differences between the list of exhibitors on here and what is shown elsewhere - unless the latter has been updated since I looked ) It's a shame there's nothing for customers easily available on the 'public exhibition website' (yet) brochures are available to buy on the day but personally I like to identify where the things are which I particularly want to see before I arrive.

Is there a floor plan available for the exhibition by any chance? I know some exhibitions have downloadable pdf available. Thanks

I've installed Templot on my Data drive as opposed to C:/. It works fine. There's a world of difference between running a simple home PC to a network installation. Put it into a free cloud drive and it all gets backed up automatically. Simple.

How far is it from the overspill car-park to the arena? I saw 700 yds mentioned earlier. How accurate is that figure? It doesn't seem that far to walk (I realise some would not be able to manage this distance if they have mobility or other health problems)

J21

The person was me. Obviously I intended no offence to be taken from what was a simple observation and it is as John says an opinion only. Who am I to say what colour the chairs were in relation to the sleepers on the TVR at that time. I doubt anybody can be entirely sure. It was just the contrast (light and dark - not necessarily the actual colour) that struck me. But I must agree with John in his appraisal of the whole layout. By far the most pleasing 4mm offering at the show - in my opinion of course. Thought the stock, buildings, and general ambience were very good. I do wish you were positioned differently as the back and the 'quarry' side were not easily seen by visitors. As I said in my original post if I ever achieved anything half as good I would be pretty pleased. Hopefully I will see Ynysybwl again before long. Here's the pics I took of the layout - mobile phone only I'm afraid.

Well, John, some of us do try to maintain some semblance of civilisation when attending these events. CMRA had changed the layout from last year when they had some tables but really there wasn't enough room allocated in either year to the refreshment bar. It's hard to see where extra space would come from without reducing traders or layouts and obviously the 'consist' of any one exhibition will vary. It's a balance isn't it but they'll never please all of us all the time and I expect that like hospital car parks whatever they do would never be enough. But those lines of chairs this year were just too close together. I liked Ynysybwl too, a very tidy layout. My only observation on the track was the painting of the chairs which I felt were perhaps too different to the sleepers. But if I can ever model something even half as good I would be very happy. Good to see you again. Richard

Having sorted out the name of the mystery layout (see previous posts) I can now provide a link to some of the photos I took at the show on Saturday. All on phone and somehow I had set it to HDR, but I've tweaked them so hope they are acceptable. https://www.flickr.com/photos/richardjslipper/albums/72157691495420794 Have to say I felt the show was equally as good as 2017. Exhibits of high quality especially Arun Quay - how do you get a baseboard join like that; Llangerisech - 2FS - which despite Jerry Clifford's denial I still think is a punishment option to a second hand hair shirt, Mauch Chunk - USA - HO which maybe the most interesting US layout I've seen, Ynysbwl - EM - great atmosphere but badly placed in the hall so that one end and the interesting 'backside' could not be easily viewed, Sandford and Banwell - P4 - oval layout with sound proving that it can be done with grace and style - the list is long and it is churlish to highlight only five. Anything not so good? Well yes - seating. Quite inadequate for show of this size. Sitting down to eat some sandwiches bought on site I found the lines of chairs were cramped, the floor dirty with crumbs and liquids, no place to put bags and other bits such as drink, crisps, etc. In fact so cramped that when an oversize chap plonked himself on a spare set next to me he could not sit back and I was so squashed I couldn't lift my arms to eat. I got up and walked away to stand and finish my meal. Also getting in - obviously it's a function of the venue but we went to the ground-floor to be told ticket sales were upstairs. Honestly, two old boys, a cash tin and a book of raffle tickets can work faster. Signage would have helped avoid so many people having to go up and down the stairs. (Sensible and securely fixed signage is not an H&S, or probably more accurately a liability insurance condition, issue.) A litter bin for the small peel off bits of the wrist bands would have improved the tidiness - the foyer looked untidy. (When I sought a bin, a steward suggested I throw the bit on the floor!) But these are 'housekeeping' issues and we'll be back next year without a doubt.

Thanks Mick. I learned from the two gentlemen exhibiting it that they where not the originally builders but that the maker had died. There was some nice rolling stock on it. Regards Richard