nickb4141

4 hours ago, tractionman said:

 

worth keeping an eye on the S/H Heljan CoBos that appear here:

 

https://clarkrailworks.com/collections/Heljan/?sort_by=created-descending

 

 

 

Thanks for the recommendation! Just had a quick look and the only Class 28 is, (you guessed it,) sold! 😁 I will however check back periodically, so hopefully, I’ll strike gold! 

On 22/01/2024 at 14:36, Michael Hodgson said:

 

With ebay you have to look only at items that sold - and ignore the grossly over-optimistic starting prices of things that are repeatedly relisted.  Even then, it only takes a few moneyed types fighting over an item for an auction to reach silly money.

 

I sold my Hornby Dublo Co-bo a good many years ago on ebay because I had seen some auctions resulting in prices I consider completely unjustified at the time.  But that was only 1 loco and an auction with a high starting price  (I would have been happy to keep it had it not sold).   I was once at a railwayana auction and saw something which the auctioneer would have expected to go for perhaps £20 to £50 that sold for £2000. 

 

Current Ebay prices are not enough in themselves to indicate sufficiently serious demand to warrant a re-run, though they could be low enough to confirm that a rerun isn't a good idea.

 

 

If you look at sold prices on EBay, there are quite a few reaching over £200, so while, yes,I agree it’s not an exact science, it does suggest there is at least some demand for these. The only alternative is the ‘expressions of interest’ polls which, in my opinion are a complete finger in the air and absolutely meaningless. It’s been quite a while since the last batch sold out everywhere, so I would have thought it’d be worth a punt in releasing some more at some point? Incidentally, I wasn’t interested in Class 28’s when the first two batches were released, as they didn’t fit in with my layouts at the time. Currently, I’m planning a model based on the Furness line, so these are very much part of the scene, so I’d be looking for 2-3 if they ever do become available again. Yes, that’s only me, but I’d imagine there are other modellers whose modelling interests ‘evolve’ over time.

Is it only LNER 9 car sets Kato are producing? Just seems a bit strange not to offer the GWR equivalents, unless I’ve missed something?

The prices these reach on EBay are stratospheric! I’m really surprised that no one at Heljan has picked up on this and announced a new batch - there definitely seems to be a pent up demand, based on what people are prepared to pay for them! 

9 hours ago, Charnwood said:

Anything southern region from mid 1970s to mid 1980s. Blue or blue/ grey. The most numerous EMUs in the UK and woefully under-represented in the modelling world. Favourites probably 4-SUB - lifespan of several decades and hundreds of the things made or 4-CIG - another massive hole. Price? Accurascale quality with DCC sound and the like? £500 max. Quantity? Up to 4-5 of either but you'd have to do alternative running numbers! Always thought manufacturers missed a trick here. Many of the MUs were identical but modellers don't want literally the same one. Provide the same model but slap different transfers on it and it becomes a very different story. That's my thoughts anyway: bound to be differing views 😁

 

Rob

Definitely agree about the 4CIG! Three mouldings, with no significant changes made to the prototype throughout a 40 year plus life and multiple liveries, operating across all three sections of the Southern Region! In addition, it has lots of current models that complement it. Probably makes sense for Hornby to utilise their soon to be released, revised Class 423, but I won’t hold my breath! 

I think the simple answer to how much people are prepared to pay for units, is to be at least in line with competitors. Bachmann have produced many units over the years, so there must be a market for them, as they wouldn’t continue to invest in new ones. Their Class 158’s and 117’s and 121’s are excellent models at pretty reasonable prices, so would provide a good benchmark for prices of 1/2/3 car models, both DCC Ready and Sound Fitted, (although I do feel their CEP’s and BEP’s were overpriced at an RRP of £500!)

Dapol also seems to have pitched the price and specifications of their recently announced Class 323 well.

Accurascale have already demonstrated their capabilities with their Irish units, so I’m surprised Fran is trying to gauge opinion on the commercial viability. I wouldn’t have thought a UK outline multiple unit wouldn’t be any more of a risk than an Irish outline unit, taking market size into account. Yes, the prototype picked I will be a definite factor, but reading through this thread there seems to be a lot of people requesting what appears to be some sound commercial choices.

I do wonder if Fran’s question was to deflect that Accurascale don’t have any immediate plans for UK units? My personal opinion is that they’ll still be in the ‘Space Race’ in the immediate future, to produce high spec loco replacements for some of the ‘low hanging fruit’  of ageing models from other manufacturers (Class 08, HST, West Country/Battle of Britain, A4 all spring to mind).

That said, as someone who is ‘crazy’ about multiple units, I sincerely hope I’m wrong and Fran has all sorts of goodies ready to announce! 

Has anyone heard who the ‘mystery manufacturer’ is for a newly tooled 153 yet? 
(Charlie alluded to one being in work at the moment, but was tight lipped as to who it was!) 

….Would have bet it was Heljan, with the new 7mm version currently in work , but Charlie said it’s not them??

Accurascale? Rapido? 

Just checked my preorder for five 142’s and thankfully the order is not cancelled (at least not at the moment!)

7 hours ago, The Pilotman said:

 

Someone did a few days ago…

Really? Please do enlighten me…….I haven’t seen anything that explains the phenomenon of N gauge being more viable than 00 gauge products? Block wagons, I could possibly understand, but we’re talking about a 2 or 3 car multiple unit here? 

7 hours ago, The Pilotman said:

 

Your comparisons between Revolution and other companies are unfair. I would not expect a company run by a handful of people, doing it in their spare time, to go about things in the same way as a large company with multiple paid staff on their books.

Is it? I see Mike has already put you straight on that one and confirmed Revolution isn’t run as a side line hobby. Even if that was the case, Realtrack manage to produce multiple liveries of their products and I wasn’t aware that there is an army of people working for Charlie Petty? 
 

Just to reconfirm (as I’ve said many times before,) I love the products Revolution have produced and my wallet has been considerably lighter as a result, in both 00 gauge and N gauge! I’m not attacking them, but merely trying to provide constructive feedback regarding some of the decisions that have been made, with a view to them maximising their success and potentially reinvesting that into further projects. I genuinely wish them the very best for the future and look forward to what else they have up their sleeves. 
 

Merry Christmas everyone! 😁

6 hours ago, Sir TophamHatt said:

The issue here is that your view point is jaded because they aren't producing something you are interested in.

 

I see no stand out marketing for either Accurascale than Dapol or Revolution Trains - the only one I occasionally see is Hornby.  But then I don't read railway modelling magazines.  Enough people saw the EOI as the whole project has gone into production.  I don't really follow model railway news but I still managed to see the EOI and get registered for it.  Maybe people wanted other liveries more and can't afford two or three units these days?

 

Accurascale aren't selling to the same market as Revolution.  I am not interested in yet another Pannier tank, but I am interested in a 180.  Not the same market.

 

Different companies have different thresholds on what they want to / can risk.
Stamping your feet looking for an answer that you won't accept anyway isn't going to help anyone, brings nothing to the discussion and is quite simply getting boring now.  Perhaps I should take my protests to Asda for not producing some Red Leicester with black pepper cheese this year, nor did they last year.  It clearly didn't sell that well the year before that, so they didn't get it manufactured again.  Do I stand around and complain about it?  No.  I just accept it and buy some other cheese instead.

 

EOI didn't meet the threshold of [producing that livery] being worth it for Revolution (at this time).

 

Sorry if this seems harsh.  I am here for updates about the project, not moans about a specific livery not being produced.

Haha! I’m not sure who’s ’stamping their feet’ here?!
 

I don’t think you have understood the point I have been making. The 00 market is the same group of consumers whether you’re a modern or steam era modeller and every permutation in between. They don’t suddenly metamorphosise into a different species when purchasing Revolution products.
 

Accurascale are far from a predominantly steam manufacturer, so why you feel Accurascale sell to a different market, to Revolution is a different view, but everyone is entitled to their opinion. As a previous purchaser of Revolution products, there are many items that Accurascale produce that also appeal and complement the Revolution products produce or are planning to introduce. The fundamental difference between Revolution and most other manufacturers is that they other a range of liveries which cover the timeline of the products they’re producing, thereby maximising the return on their investment, by appealing to the widest possible audience. Similarly, Dapol, Bachmann, Heljan, Realtrack and even Hornby follow the same practice, so it must work, as they’re all still in business! I’ve fully accept that Revolution have no plans to produce the livery I would have a purchased a couple of units in, but I just think some of their business decisions are a little strange, but it’s their business and that decision is entirely their perrogrative. 
 

Interestingly, no one has countered my argument that if the missing First livery can be viable in N scale, then why it wouldn’t be in 00 scale? Even Ben has said ‘N gauge items can sell at least as well as 00 scale’ which kind of contradicts the decision that has been made.

Anyway, Merry Christmas everyone, I hope that clarifies the point, I’ve been trying to make and here’s to a ‘spitting your dummy out’ - free 2024! 😆

On 06/12/2023 at 10:48, Sir TophamHatt said:

Why didn't it mean people weren't interersted?

Because you could only be ‘not interested’ if you actually saw the ‘expressions of interest’ in the first place! Revolution seem to have a very low profile compared to for example, Accurascale. At the end of the day, all manufacturers are selling their products to the same 00 gauge market, but I can’t imagine Accurascale only offering 2 liveries on an 00 DMU (if they ever produce one,) and Dapol are able to offer 7 liveries on an arguably more restricted EMU prototype, than the 175 and 180 DMU’s? So why is the 00 market so different to Revolution’s eyes? 

6 hours ago, charliepetty said:

These have been postponed for the coming year.  Charlie.

Hi Charlie,

that’s sounds a bit like a cryptic crossword! Can you expand on what you mean please?

8 hours ago, woodenhead said:

@nickb4141 The 156 has been done in OO by RealTrack, Bachmann would do the 950 if anybody in OO or N.

Yes, meant Dapol’s N gauge 156 (model in both scales) I already have a lot of Realtrack’s excellent 156 sets :) 

I agree re Bachmann doing a Class 950, as it would be a simple body retool/set of slides, but seeing they’ve had the 150 tooling for about 15 years, they don’t seem in any hurry to do it! 

The Network Rail Class 950 Track Recording DMU would be a good choice - at least 3 liveries off the top of my head and they have been literally EVERYWHERE across the rail network, so an easy excuse for every modern modeller to buy at least one.

…..there’s not that many items you can say run everywhere! 

Revised Class 156 models with the universal toilet window modifications, so that we can have an up to date Northern White & Blue and Scotrail liveries. Also if the boxy underframe could be retooled, that would be a great improvement!

1 minute ago, woodenhead said:

Class 120 coming from RevolutioN - but only N so far.

Yes,sorry, I meant in 00. Revolution always seem extremely cautious about producing 00 gauge stuff, demonstrated with the two liveries offered for their 4mm 175 and 180 models. They’ve also avoided 00 gauge versions of their 320/321, 313/314 and Electrostar models, so I wouldn’t hold your breath waiting for anything from them. Ben has said ‘N gauge sells at least as well as 00 gauge’ so they probably feel safer sticking with what they know with N gauge products. 

25 minutes ago, Legend said:

There’s still some low hanging fruit . Now that they’ve developed an my drive for the 323 

 

A class 185 , looks like it will remain TPE fleet for some time to come 

 

Class 116 . A spectacular miss from Bachmann when they introduced  the 117 . A 116 was promised from Kernow but disappeared when Bachmann took over development . A 116 was widespread . Wales Midlands and Scotland . It would probably be less expensive than Bachmann too 

 

We are still waiting for 313/4/5 . Supposedly being developed by someone , but no sign of it for years ! 
 

A Swindon 120 
 

 

Agree with all of those choices - I’m quite amazed that the 116 and 120 DMU’s have been shunned by manufacturers for so long, while some other quite niche (and ‘bargain bin’ candidates,) have been chosen ahead of them! 

On 04/12/2023 at 18:22, adb968008 said:

This is the problem with the 185.. three liveries, and most of the time these units run solo, so most people only need to buy one in their selected era, and job done.

 

I seem to recall at least 1 class 185 in a promo livery, c2000’s.

They actually run in 6 car formations fairly regularly nowadays, but granted this is a relatively recent development in the last couple of years. On the positive side, these have run over quite a widespread area, despite only having one operator and they would complement the forthcoming Hornby TPE Class 802, which seemed to sell out extremely quickly on pre order and the Accurascale Nova 3 Mk5 sets.

On 27/07/2023 at 17:37, 6990WitherslackHall said:

A class 185 DMU.

 

No manufacturer has made a ready to run version yet. Currently they are being only used by one TOC: TransPennine Express. But they've carried 3 liveries throughout their career.

I second that. Probably more attractive to Revolution as there are only a couple of mainstream liveries to produce, rather than multiple liveries that Dapol tend to favour, but whoever was to produce these, I’d be in the market for four sets of these.

3 hours ago, big jim said:

To me a FNW version is probably the most versatile of the liveries as it can be rebranded for use on mid 2000s ATW based layout too

 

Admittedly I didn’t express an interest in any particular 175 even though I want one and was just going to order whatever took my fancy when the books opened, I suppose I shot myself in the foot regards the FNW one, it used to guard them and it was the first unit I drove when doing my handling hours with FNW then I drove them rebranded with ATW (it was also the last unit I I drove for them) But that was the weird interim livery ATW one 

 

 

 

 

Well said Big Jim! The FNW livery is also the only livery that has operated over all of the lines shown in Revolution’s route maps!

4 hours ago, The Pilotman said:

Fair enough, I hadn’t been following this thread from the beginning so I did take a look and found the number of people stating that they would purchase a 4mm First North Western 175 was fewer than ten. Of those, I think at least one of those expressing an interest has an N gauge layout. As this model is out of my area and era of interest, I don’t know whether I’m surprised or not. But it’s hardly a glowing endorsement, so I’m not surprised that the version isn’t going ahead, based on that figure, and the apparent lack of expressions of interest directly to Revolution Trains earlier this year. 

….and if you counted the Welsh livery versions, (bearing in mind there are two options,) it wasn’t much more, so based on your theory, none of the livery options would be viable! Let me just ask you this, if you were investing your money in a project, how many 2mm models do you realistically think would outsell a direct 4mm equivalent? If you’re being honest, I think the answer would be very few or none. If that is the case, then how can the FNW version be viable in 2mm, but not in 4mm? If just doesn’t stack up! If 4mm versions are such poor sellers for Revolution, then why bother? Perhaps the answer is to share development costs with Accurascale and let them produce the 4mm versions and Revolution the 2mm versions, which I’m sure someone will correct me, if I’m wrong, but was pretty much what happened with the Mk5 Transpennine & Caledonian Sleeper coaches.

On 01/12/2023 at 22:23, WCML100 said:

As much as I am a fan of barbie livery, and one of these on a 175 would look great, its most likely the shortest lived livery and I can imagine as it is not current it wont be picked up as much. 
 

The comments regarding the previous releases of pendos and 321’s, well maybe they are learning from experience of how well (or not…) larger variety of liveries sell under one batch. 
 

I think the expressions of interest was well publicised on here and elsewhere. For me first thing I do when something is announced I am interested in is turn the ‘follow’ button on for that particular thread. That way I don’t miss any talk or information regarding them.

….whilst not a current livery, the ‘Barbie livery was around for about ten years, albeit later debranded with new operators names added.  It was certainly around for longer than the last livery, which is now obsolete, seeing as the units have now been withdrawn by Transport for Wales. Anyone modelling the Cumbrian coast to Barrow, Blackpool, Windermere, Lancaster, Preston or Manchester areas sadly doesn’t have an excuse to buy a few units. 

15 hours ago, The Pilotman said:

Or, more likely, the fact they had little response would suggest that not many people want one? Clearly there was enough interest in the ones they are doing otherwise Revolution Trains wouldn’t be doing the model at all. If you’re so sure the version you want is viable, perhaps you could approach a suitable retailer in the target area for the livery in question and see if they’re interested in commissioning one. So far, on here at least, you seem to be the only voice in favour of the version you want. 

If you’ve been following this thread from the beginning, you’ll see quite a number of people stating they were going to purchase 4mm First North Western 175’s, so I’m certainly not the only one who wanted this livery before it was pulled - take a look, you might be surprised just how many there are!

10 hours ago, Revolution Ben said:

 

Hi Nick,

 

It seems a common misapprehension among 4mm modellers that the market scales.   We have found with many of our projects that the 2mm version sells at least as well as 4mm.

 

This may be because fewer customers seem to individually buy more of most things, probably relfecting that their layouts tend to feature scale length trains rather than truncated ones.

 

I appreciate that some customers may have missed the expressions of interest but it was widely publicised on our website and on here and is the only hard data we have.

 

cheers

 

Ben A.

Hi Ben,

Thanks for your reply, but I’m struggling to understand the logic here? If 2mm versions sell ‘at least as well as 4mm’ then how can the FNW version be viable in 2mm but not 4mm? Last weekend Dapol announced an (arguably less geographically spread,) model with the class 323 EMU and have offered six liveries from the outset in 4mm, which seems at odds with your two offered for the 4mm 175. I don’t think expressions of interest tell you anything - it’s easy for anyone to say ‘I’ll buy two of those and three of those’ but the fact that you had little response would suggest the message didn’t get out there to the intended audience. I regularly read RMWeb and read all of the modelling press and didn’t see anything and I’m a massive DMU fan! I’m not saying all of this to be a thorn in your side, but I think your pendulum has gone from one extreme to another with the livery options offered (early Pendolino options and 321 spring to mind). My concern if that you’re going to end up stifling your potential sales and the viability of projects, which would be a great shame, when you produce such great products. 

16 hours ago, Revolution Ben said:

 

Hi nickb4141,

 

We were unsure of demand for FNW so we carried out an expression of interest exercise over the summer.  The response was minimal, so at the moment it isn't one we are offering. You will understand of course that different livery versions have to reach an MOQ (minimum order quantity) to be viable.

 

We would rather not take your money than take it and then have to refund it as we are unable to fulfil your expectation.

 

It may be one we revisit later.

 

cheers

 

Ben A.

Hi Ben,

Thanks for your reply. Re the expression of interest, I had no idea of this and I wonder if others may be in the same boat. I was surprised that you are still doing the FNW livery in 2mm if it’s that unpopular as I thought the common assumption was that N gauge is only 10% of the 4mm market, hence if 2mm is viable, you’d expect 4mm to be a certainty? Currently the only two choices are both Welsh liveries, so anyone modelling quite a wide area of Northern England is effectively excluded from having an excuse to buy a 175 from you, which is a shame as it no doubt effects the viability of this and future projects. I appreciate your past experience with the 320/321 liveries offered, but only offering 2 liveries both from the same geographical area seems like a missed opportunity to me? 
 

Cheers, Nick.