Bob Reid

Bruce,

Click on you username at the top right hand side, then select 'My Gallery' from the pull down list. In your gallery, click on the image you would like to add comments to then look on the right hand side at the image details box - there should be a Mod Options button - click on that and one of the options is 'Edit Image' select that to change the title or add a description.

Bob.

Just recapping slightly on the OP's question.

 

IIRC the Mk3s have disc brakes located around the wheels, but the Mk4 wheelsets have an extra disc brake assembly in the centre of the axle, as well as those in the conventional wheel area. This allows for the improved braking that would have been required from 140mph.

 

Not quite Phil but nearly Mk3s (as the disc braked Mk2s) have Cast Iron 'cheek' discs, bolted through the wheel (in four halves bolted either side of each wheel centre), Mark 4s have separate brake disc rotors on the axles themselves as you say however they do not have conventional cheek discs as the Mk3s etc. Either way the Mk 4s have a far greater brake pad area and are far better ventilated to allow rapid heat dissipation.

Where have you been hiding 'Chard' - wondered if you had got lost in the whitrope tunnel after indulging your borders alter-ego?

Great stuff. Is the white metal object to the bottom left of the second photo the tilted plate separator?

No I don't think so. I'm sure the Craigentinny TPS was at the rear of the Pump House and is out of sight there. If you look at this shot of Clayhills http://jordstrainpics.fotopic.net/p47166365.html (click on it to open it in a seperate window and enlarge it). Ahead of the the group of guys, there's one working on his own doing something to the side of the actual separator itself. It's basically a black tank maybe 10ft long x 3ft wide by 8ft tall, with an open top, which is always filled full of contaminated water (all of the rainwater and spilt fuel etc. pumped to it from the Fuel Point). The water passes over tilted plates (literally) with the oil seperating from the water. The water went into the trade effluent drains, and the oil into into a large cylindrical tank that's sitting within a bund directly behind it. Once the tank was full, it was offloaded by Road Tanker, and the waste oil was sold to a company who recovered it for further use (I'm not sure what it was used for - maybe industrial heating)?

More bits of Craigentinny Graham;

Note that last shot Graham. The one you pointed out earlier at http://daverowland.fotopic.net/p45804941.html This was taken looking up the side of the blue shed on the right of the above photo from the opposite direction. By the time I took that shot, the cleaning lighting gantries had gone, as had the roads on which the vehicles were sitting on in the earlier shot.

You did have the lighting over the cleaning roads as well but point taken about other lights. Thanks for the fencing list as well, Glenn thought that was probably the case. The Express Models lights are 240mm which is 18.24m, they should be okay.

Forgot about those! - Of course they provided lots of them

And the shunters had a great way of dealing with them!

Some quality cars there Bob. Which was yours?

It's probably not in the shot - we had a "company" car! - The proverbial RAF blue Bedford (Astra) Van - or if the boss wan't using it, his "company" 309 - in same colour! I had 16v Black Metro GTi then (still wish I had that car) but I don't see it....

One wee thing I meant to add Graham. Most (if not all) of the ScR Carriage Depots did not have anything in the way of small roadway or yard lights. They all only ever had the large 15m? fabricated towers with maybe six lamps on each. Carriage depot lighting was notoriously bad. and it's only in the last 15 years that those at Craigentinny were replaced by the larger 25m Abacus masts.

This is just a teaser Graham, though it maybe highlights some of the points;

From the Car Park round - Above the Car Park, a covered bike shed! followed by the Gas Compound (somewhat empty by that time) and also containing blue R22 Refrigerant bottles. The building over to the right of the road is the Plant & Machinery Workshop with all their junk outside. Below that is the compound for the oil barrels (racked), below that is the HV/ETS Compound, and below that the white thing is the Compacter. I'm not 100% certain of the date though I'm sure it was 93ish...... I was halfway up one of the 45' lighting towers on a steel ladder with ice all over it. I'm not sure what was shaking the most - me, the camera, or both!

I have no idea of the type of perimeter fencing used in the 1980s, if anyone has a reasonable idea or even photos then that would be very useful. Plus it there's anything we might have missed please feel free to say, sometimes you just can't see the wood for the trees.

Craigentinny - Concrete posts with 8' high chain link fencing

Clayhills - Nowt but a granite block wall with a 25ft drop over it!

Cowlairs - Concrete posts with chain link fencing - or in the remote parts of the depot where the Neds could get in, big steel fences.....

Polmadie - Big Steel Fences....

Inverness - Can't remember for sure but it may well have been chain link fencing again with concrete posts.

Carriage Depot security was never that great in the past - Usually only the one side (facing onto any public area) was fenced, the rest being closed by adjacent lines..... You once would have struggled to find a closed gated entrance (though the gates were alway there)

Many thanks for the reply Paul, I was beginning to think I was the only person reading my own thread.

 

As I said above things are a bit of a mess at the moment. They'll be no work on the layout this weekend and next weekend Glenn and I will be spending money at Warley.

 

I've been looking through fotopic for images of coaching stock depots in the mid to late 1980s basically to see the ground textures/colours and what paraphernalia is needed to help bring the depot to life. Photos of Craigentinny help but the problem is most of them are taken after the ECML electrification so the amount of diesel movements, and subsequent filth, were reduced.

 

The best photos I've found so far are here and here, if anyone has any more shots of carriage sheds in this era (and preferably Scotland but not essential) I would be very interested to see them. Obviously many thanks to Bob for the two photos he posted on the old RMweb (link).

 

The list of items needed so far is large lighting towers, smaller yard lights, carriage cleaning lighting gantries, stand pipes, battery chargers (portable and non portable) and shore supply boxes. Any photos from depots of these items in the 1980s would be greatly appreciated. If you're reading this Bob (or anyone else) and there is anything major we have missed please say.

Hi Graham it's the "blog" format that doesn't lend itself to well to getting lots of feedback I fear. Nowt to do with the layout....

Perhaps (at a quick glance - so I may have missed the presence of them) you could consider adding some of the follwing, which were typical of Carriage sidings....

- A couple of waste compacters - something has to be done with all that rubbish that comes off the trains....

- A Propane Gas compound - Naturally, given the quantity needed we were not allowed to store them indoors....

- An ETH compound - Usually at the rear of the carriage sidings, containing the 415v & 1000v transformers and switchgear for the shore supplies - mind there were separate supplies at the end of each siding provided, for both HST & Loco-Hauled ETS.

- A separate Boiler House for supplying the shed heating and the the Steam Heat shore supplies.

- A tilted plate separator near the fuel point (used to separate out the waste Lube Oil from Coolant/BSM/Rainwater) for disposal....

- A remote filling point for the main fuel tanks usually somewhere on the depot access road where the BP tankers (from Grangemouth) could offload the diesel fuel, similarly there was usually a bulk offloading point for the Lube Oil)

- Talking of Lube Oil, most depots had a separate fenced compound for storing the 45Gall drums of Lube Oil etc.

- Again (almost) all depots had adjacent to the Yard Office, a large clock outside - just as a reminder to the train crew who might be booking on there!

- Outside of the yard office was inevitably where the depot pilot sat (Glenn will remember this) when it wasn't shunting stock about. Needless to say this (as well as the fuel offloading points) was where the ground was heavily contaminated with diesel....

- Most Depots had a store (some like Craigentinny had it's own Laundry /dry-cleaners) where the replacement loose seat covers, sleeper laundry, and 000s of Blue & White Towelmaster rolls sat.... Before the stuff was cleaned and stored it often sat outside on small trailers or in the ScR, in redundant BRUTEs - for which most Depots had a couple of battery Tow trucks for....

- The larger Depots usually had accommodation for the Plant & Machinery staff based on the depot - often though, as they were not T&RS staff they had their own workshop separate from the Depot Staff - and usually with a lot of (seemingly) junk outside "Under or Awaiting Repair" (Tow-Trucks, Battery Chargers) and more BRUTEs

- A staff car park! 24hrs a day operation and 365 days a year, meant that there was always a busy car park (except Saturday back shift usually)....... And inevitably the Depot Engineer and even the AME got their own marked space. Aye the power of rank!

I could probably blether about C&W locations for hours, but you are probably quite bored by now! - I don't have a lot of photo's but there's a few that I do have that might pick up on some of the carriage depot details you might want to consider. When I've stopped lifting our (flooded) floor - no pun intended, I'll try and scan some for a wee article on my blog that'll maybe give you some pointers!

Although your looking at some photo's from the electrification years, Carriage Depots (except perhaps Cowlairs and Bellahouston) were always that (relatively) clean compared to Diesel Depots. The Depots servicing HSTs were only constructed in 1976 and later, and apart from where the Power Cars were overhauled were always that much better - hence the reason we could paint the floors in the sheds light grey!

Anyway, more later!

Okay i think i get it now. The coaches are air braked and the engine supplies the air for it. In an HST it is supplied by 2 engines from both ends, so brakes twice as fast. But the loco-hauled only has one engine at the front (or back). The coaches them selves don't have electric brakes. Is this correct?

Not really - the signal that causes each coach to apply or release the brakes individually is provided by altering the pressure in the Auto-Air Brake Pipe throughout the train. Sticking to application of the brakes, on conventional loco-hauled air braked stock, this alteration to the AABP is done by reducing the air pressure from the (leading) locomotive. In the case of the HST however, whilst the reduction in pressure is still initiated at the leading Power Car under the control of the driver it is also automatically reduced via an electric signal at the rear Power Car as well. This reduction in pressure from both ends at once, increases the speed at which each coach is signalled to apply the brakes, and proportionally reduces the distance required to reduce the speed of the train or bring the whole lot to a stand. No electronics are involved in the braking system of the Mark III stock, being entirely controlled by air pressure, the Power Cars however use an electrical system to communicate the position of the brake controller (and hence the application of the brakes) from the front to the rear PC.

[Edit] Thinking of a more basic analogy - if the speed (and hence the rate) of brake application was dependant on letting water out of a 600ft long pipe what would the effect of letting the water out of both ends of the pipe at the same time be as opposed to just one of them?

Sorry- finger error- I meant 125 mph. I had been up since 03:30......

Crikey Brian you've knocked me off my rant there!

The Mark 3 loco-hauled stock was designed to be hauled (DVTs arrived later), and the trains included Mark 1 stock- gangwayed brakes were used as no Mark 3 Brake vehicles were built- so it wasn't thought necessary for the stock to be 140 mph-capable. It might have been possible to retro-fit the stock once DVTs became available, but there probably wasn't enough spare stock to enable whole rakes to be taken out of service to be fitted. It only became feasible to fit the equipment once the stock had been displaced by the Pendelios, by which time it wasn't seen as a priority. It's one of these cases of 'If only we'd thought of that' or 'we should have employed a Systems Engineer' which bedevil so much of industry. Mind you- the converse situation of specifying and fitting equipment which is rarely if ever used can also be problematic...What you really need is a reliable crystal ball, and an unlimited budget!

Why would it have been 140mph? They were designed for 125mph though (as a result of being "hauled" restricted to 110mph. 140mph only ever became a consideration (and then for Mark 4 stock, on the advent of the IC225 project). Why would BR have considered retro-fitting the Mark 3s for 140mph, when there were no locomotives, nor any plans or funding to produce any 140mph capable locomotives after the Class 91s?

You say it wasn't a priority? As far as I'm aware (certainly within INTERCITY) it was never considered let alone a priority, as the next step would have been the Mark Vs - I'm not disputing it ever happened however I certainly don't ever remember a "if only we'd though of that' moment or 'we should have employed a Systems Engineer', in respect of the Mark III stock - Why on earth would they?. The Mark IIIs were well designed and executed and their length in service has proven that time and time again. BR was already full of capable engineers - and a had plenty of competent and active Systems Engineers. The only thing BR lacked was a cohesive plan for the progressive replacement of rolling stock, such as had existed up until the end of Mark III construction, which would have course have necessitated a government that wasn't intent on running BR down.

Put it under a Judith Edge Clayton?

 

(Just off for my tin hat )

Don't worry about your hat just show us the error of our beliefs

Yes, far more accurate than the Heljan joke, even better with Shawplan replacement fans and grilles.

I'll need to stop using that invisible ink

It's not directly to do with the wiring, but because of the system of brake actuation (not sure if it's a variant/development of electro-pneumatic braking), which applies and releases the brakes within an entire HST set at once, rather than the lag one gets between the application of the brakes to individual vehicles. On the basis that 'The ability to stop gives the right to speed' this means that HSTs are allowed a higher maximum top speed, as they can stop more quickly.

More like an Electronic version than EP, though the principles the same - each Power Car is equipped with a Davies & Metcalfe E70 electronic Brake Controller which through application valves on each power car (and the associated train wires), applies and releases the brakes simultaneously from each end, basically for the same length of train at a faster rate than a conventional loco-hauled set - we are talking fractions of a second difference in lag for either type however on an HST it's sufficient enough to reduce the stopping distance at maximum speed quite considerably!

Aside from all that, both the Loco-Hauled and HST Mark 3s were originally designed to operate at 125mph!

The JE kit built well gives a 'finer' and slightly better proportioned Clayton, some of HJ's cab dimensions are incorrect if I recall.

It's like many of these stories that get put about- wrong rivets, too small, too big, whatever - no one ever puts any figures round it, any meat on the bone as it were...... The one about the height? of the HJ Clayton came out within the first week of release, and to date no ones put any figures to the difference. Could it be the kit Clayton's are wrong? Who knows without any supporting info? I'm certainly not out to look up or source the appropriate drawings as to be honest (like many of the purchasers) apart from the drive problems it looks better than any Clayton I'd seen modelled previously. In comparative price terms, the HJ - even at full price, are clearly streets ahead. Of course there is room for improvement, but I'd have to say, to me that fact doesn't detract greatly from what HJ produced.

Doesn't make HJ's effort a joke by any means, perhaps an enterprising individual will show us their JE version, though in the way these types of comments have gone in the past, we'll be waiting for quite a while.

 

Anyone remember the ' better than the NRM Deltic Kitmaster conversion'? ... Still waiting to see it two years on ....

Some people are never happier than when they are decrying the latest release. Having returned to modelling a few years back now after an extended absence thanks to BR and the 12" to the foot version, I've been increasingly disappointed by the queue that forms to be the first to pronounce the "next-best-thing" from the manufacturers as a dud, or to spot the latest "oops" as if all the other modellers will be suitably impressed by their wealth of knowledge and prowess. As you say PMP, if there version is that much better and streets ahead of the RTR manufacturers, and yet costs the same price, then lets see it then - Get it out on the table

Yes, far more accurate than the Heljan joke, even better with Shawplan replacement fans and grilles.

Nothing like stirring it up without any explanation?

Forgetting the drive problems, what's the joke about it?

What's the red livery on the DMUs?

Do you mean the earlier photo's of the EMUs as well as the 156 - It's the Bright Orange of Strathclyde Transport..... See http://members.madasafish.com/~dysgraphyk/156/class156_liv-st.htm or strictly speaking Strathclyde PTE.....

thoes electrical hoses look far to thick.

 

Ian G

Handy things those electrical hoses Ian. Great for spraying electricity all over the place

Kentucky Fried Chicken

on her horse

along the watchtower

amongst the nobs