Pennine MC

Yes, hurry up you two. Some of us are waiting to open those nice blue boxes

Not just minerals Mike, it's fairly commonplace on most BR-era wagons. Not sure when it actually started but it may have been a blackout measure.

In that case, it sure does.

I'm surprised there's not been more appreciation of the Edgeley shot, I think it's a cracker with the way it contrasts the old and new orders so graphically. On a detail point, the 16 tonner at left shows evidence of a stanchion repair, which wasn't uncommon.

Any shots of ACs on 'traditional' freight present an interesting juxtaposition, the one with the big hoppers is almost surreal

They certainly look good in a setting Carl, reminds me of the old Triang catalogue covers with the artist's impression of their 81.

It's good that you can put the positive side here Paul, from what I'm told the poor bloke is getting some quite undeserved slating just for running a business. All hidden away where no-one can have the right to reply, it's just not cricket, is it.

Well, I have to say this loco has given me the best laugh of the week. Not the model itself, it looks superb, but I've been advised that some folk are getting hot and bothered about this Ebay member: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Bachmann-31-678-Class-85-Electric-85026-BR-Blue-/190679421585?pt=UK_Trains_Railway_Models&hash=item2c65611291 Apparently there's disquiet at him trading at a profit as soon as the model's out; well, look just a few inches to the right of course, and you can clearly see it's a shop. Erm, that's what they do, isnt it

Comments are amusing, even without knowing the folk involved

The last ones are definitely 16 tonners, they're not sheeted but the load is slightly and (quite neatly) humped. The two behind the van are some sort of hopper, and are sheeted - they're probably common or garden 21 tonners, judging by the height and length relative to the surrounding vehicles. Nice Army wagon on the Lowmac, can anybody ID that? Edit - dont think the hoppers are sheeted over fully (unless they've sunk inwards), the tarps may just be draped over the nearsides.

Are you sure it's in the wagon Keith? It looks to me more like it's bracketed out from the embankment, and that the vertical members terminate in the grassy mound.

Stuart Whether you and I understand each other is irrelevant here (if admittedly tedious) - the thread isnt here just for you and I, it's for anyone who might want to learn from it. If nothing else, Rmweb can be a valuable resource and the overall aim should be that the info presented is as correct as it can be. Your hypothesis, whilst perhaps understandable, was incorrect - initial TOPS renumbering and fitting of plated headcodes didnt occur together. That being so, it got corrected, and the situation in general was clarified, all in the spirit of historical accuracy. Cheers.

I'm a bit unsure what the significance of the phrase 'TOPS revamp' is in this context, it may only serve to confuse the issue. The initial programme of TOPS renumbering was a purely operational issue which had little if anything to do with the detail condition of a loco. 85s were renumbered into TOPS between spring '73 and spring '75, giving almost three full years during which some TOPS'ed locos would have displayed operational headcode panels. The '0000' display came in from 1.1.76, fairly closely followed by the dominoes. Plating over with marker lights would have been later, I'm open to correction here but I'd think it would have started from around 1979/80 as it did on other classes (with the exception of ECML 47/4s which were done pretty early).

'Twas indeed, pardon my facetiousness; I may not know 85s inside out but I do know they don't have steam engine wheels...

What should it have, 6'9 16-spoke?

Not thick Mike, there's a slim chance you have something very unusual. It's definitely fitted, it has a vac pipe. The most likely explanation would just be that it looks dusty, but enlarging the shot, there do appear to be areas of light grey patch painting on the end - look particularly at the 'grid' pattern on the LH panel. I've always understood that the far North went fully fitted in 1977, at the same time as the Southern, yet on the cover of a book I have (Tom Noble's Diesels on the Regions, ScR), there is another shot, also very coincidentally taken at Brora, of a 26 with a 16 tonner that is even more clearly grey. That one is dated March '83, which is very late for any unfitted 16 tonner to be away from the areas in which they were concentrated at the end. Not impossible for it to have strayed of course, if it turned up at Inverness then no doubt it would have been sent on, possibly under some local authority or on the basis of 'we've dealt with these bl**dy things for long enough, we do know what to do with them'. I'm far from convinced, but open minded - it's just possible that a few of these wagons were vac fitted at a very late date without being repainted, in the same way as many 21T hoppers were, but definitive evidence is going to be very elusive, methinks.

Bit of a modeller's train that Keith - one of everything AFAIK it was only the ZHV minerals that had the slots cut in, not the ZHOs; not sure why, unless it was something to do with the slightly higher speed possible with the fitted wagons

Both ends Matt; otherwise they'd have ended up turning the loco, which kinda defeats the point of having two cabs.

Nice 'Big A' in the Brora shot

It's got a raggy edge to it, but otherwise very neat and even in application - possibly a primer, if only the yellow end was being freshened up

There are a few later than that, including some in original black - the problem is ID'ing them as such with all the sh*te on them. That will have been built in black as 13171 and looking at it logically, it'll be a green repaint done before the adoption of wasp stripes (probably at the time it acquired its 'D' number)

Oh, you're not with yourself Simon, when I think of how many times I've seen this come up. There's a whole interlude from around 1966 to 1976 that's rife with misunderstanding; f'rinstance a lot of folk seem to think that diesels went straight from 'D' numbers to TOPS.

So should I, looking back at that post. Red/grey was 'the Speedlink livery' and thus only applicable to stock fitted with air brakes - vac fitted, piped or unfitted wagons should have retained existing liveries or, if repainted, been done in bauxite/brown. I do STR though that a few CAP (vac piped) brakes incorrectly got the red/grey.

Hi Bob It seems rather less fair to me, and a bit shortsighted TBH, to hold back progress on those grounds. The market (particularly if you include ebay, swapmeets etc) includes legions of examples of models that have been superseded by better ones - it's a case of caveat emptor I'm afraid, and hope that either folk do their homework or that sellers are open and honest.