buffalo

Sorry, Rich, my question was specifically in response to Edward's comment that Midmight Blue was very dark on a model. Hence what colour undercoat did he use with this (and with the Ontario Blue) as this might well affect the final colour, particularly as Kilmersden had mentioned that the SDRT had used a medium blue undercoat on their full-sized specimens.

Nick

Midnight Blue is veryd ark on a model - I have found Ford Ontario Blue much the best so far, and at a  recent Exhibition some S&D 'experts' agreed.

Bearing in mind what has been said above, what undercoat did you use with these paints?

Nick

This site lists the Rover version of Midnight Blue as suitable. Must try it some day...

Nick

...I'm thinking of perhaps dropping the pivot down by about 3mm. See red dot on the photo below...

Why not put the pivot above the axle centres and just above that frame cutout? If you look at the 1366 photo that is what was done there, and is often done on other models. You may even be able to shape the beams to avoid the plungers and it will be less conspicuous that way. As to fore and aft movement, as chaz says, provide you allow a bit of space in the frame axle holes it will be irrelevant. There will be some minute movement wherever you place the beam centre.

Nick

Thanks for the photos.

 

One thing that I have always wondered about these railcars is why do they not have buffers?

I believe that they were run together on occasion, and No.22 (as preserved) has buffers.

 

What was the rationale for no buffers?  

None of the early ones (up to No 17) were intended to pull tail traffic*, nor were they coupled together. No 18 was fitted with buffers and regularly hauled horse boxes, etc. on the Lambourn branch. Subsequently, the ones with flat panels (19-38) were all built with buffers and did often run in pairs or with a trailing coach or van.

Nick

* those up to No 17 were fitted with a vestigial form of buffer, just a pin without any head. You can see these clearly on Karhedron's second photo above. They provided some protection if they came into contact with stop blocks or other vehicles, but were not intended to act as buffers in normal use.

Oh dear, Railcar 7 was a different bodyshell design to the others. vehicles 5-7 had a different nose with the handrails just under the cab windows and the bodyside lining adjusted to match. As you can see in this 1956 shot, the lower body panel rises up at the nose to almost touch the windscreen.

There certainly were differences under the skin between the 1935 and 1936 batches, but the visual difference that you've pointed out is, AFAIK, only cosmetic. It is simply that the beading on 5-7 sweeps up to the centre of the front windows whereas that on 8-17 is straight. The painting reflects this and, possibly, it may reflect a difference in panel shapes. Of course, if the model has only the straight beading then you're right that it will be wrong for No 7 (or vice versa).

The handrails are irrelevant as neither group had these fitted when built. The handrails and footsteps were added some time later. The earliest example of these that I've seen is in a 1939 photo of parcels car No 17.

Nick

That driving wheel offers the possibility of the GWR 'Hurricane' which had a 9' wheel. Just a thought....

Afraid not, the first Hurricane in 1838 had 10' drivers and the second in 1895 had 7'8". The third was a renamed Castle. Mind you, an 1838 Hurricane would be an entertaining project.

Nick

Guess I'm somewhat of a traditionalist when it comes to liveries. GW ... should be in green... as God intended.

Except, of course, when they were black, with or without red lining, brown and cream or crimson lake as GJ Churchward intended...

Nick

That's interesting.  When did the GWR change the Churchward type lamp irons on their coaches?

As Mike said, ordinary tail lamp brackets had long been fitted to coaches and NPCCS on the GWR and can be seen on vehicles in the late 19th century. They were normally mounted above or just inboard of the left hand rear buffer (viewed from behind) and have their long section in line with the end of the vehicle. What I think you are referring to are side lamp brackets. During the Dean era these were mounted on the end, or extreme end of the sides, and were oriented like the post-1905 GWR loco lamp brackets with their long section in line with the vehicle side. In a few cases, vehicles with end duckets had their side lamps mounted inside the upper part of the ducket. The Churchward era type was similarly aligned, but was usually mounted on the vehicle end and stuck out further to the rear. The use of side lamps on passenger trains ended in 1934 so thereafter they only showed one lamp (the tail lamp) to the rear. Many of these brackets survived, though unused, well after they ceased to be used for lamps. Previously, passenger trains (includeing NPCCS) showed three lamps to the rear, one tail lamp and two side lamps (except slip coaches that had extra special lamps).

Nick

Maybe a GWR lamp would fit on a SR lamp iron but it would be facing sideways.

It's a tail lamp, not a loco lamp, and side lamps had gone long before Rob's time so no fitting problem.

Nick

...1. 4707 in unlined black on a Bristol Swindon stopping passenger train. 6 April 1951...

Was it in clean ex-works condition? The Swindon-Bristol and return stoppers were regularly used as running-in turns for engines fresh out of the works, though Castles and Kings were the more commonly seen.

Nick

I should have mentioned that the mid-1927 date for the start of blue axleboxes comes from GWW. Looking at their references, it appears they used the same evidence of photos from Russell's Appendix that I mentioned above. I don't recall seeing any other source for this date.

Nick

...I haven't found any confirmation (or contradiction) regarding the "blue axle boxes = oil lubricated"...

Well, if you don't believe me, try the paper read to the GWR Mechanics' Institution on January 9th 1896 by a certain G. J. Churchward, reproduced in Russell's coaches vol 1.

The bearings of all modern carriage stock are lubricated with oil...

Alternatively, look at the photos in the same book. You'll find very few grease boxes beyond the first few pages.

Nick

The above links show only the axlebox covers in blue, which doesn't exclude other coaches having the spring hangers as well, of course...

Try Russell's Appendix Vol 1. Looking only at the E diagrams from E132 (1928) to E163 (1947), most of the 'as built' photos show the blue spring hangers. Exceptions where only the axleboxes are painted are mostly around 1928 or after 1947. Unfortunately few 'in service' photos are clear enough to detect any hint of blue paint.

Nick

The above comments about white lead reacting with sulphorous compounds are quite correct, the process being well advanced within a year or so of painting. Painting the tops of axle boxes blue began in 1927 and was used to indicate that the axle boxes had been modified. I don't know the nature of the modification, but it certainly had nothing to do with grease vs oil types. Grease boxes had not been fitted to GWR coaches or other rolling stock since the late 19th century (oil boxes were introduced from the late 1880s). Contemporary photos from the late twenties and thirties regularly show both the axlebox cover and the spring hangers painted blue, though I've not seen any explanation for the latter.

Nick

The photos of the 3501 tanks are quite clear and full-page copies of these and others were printed in BGS Broadsheet No 68. In only two or three cases is there even a hint of the black line close to the edge of the tanks and none of the orange. Equally, there is no hint of the black edging or red or orange lining that would be expected near the edge of the frames (this may however have appeared somewhat later). Certainly, the boiler bands on all of the photos are not lined. It is certainly possible to find examples of unlined or partially lined engines, particularly tanks and many of these do not have lined boiler bands.

Perhaps a better photo of Prince in Geof Sheppard's Broad Gauge Engines taken fairly soon after almagamation of the SDR with the GWR does clearly show lining on the bunker side, but not on the cab side sheet.

As to 517s, the John Copsey article in GWRJ 74-5 shows almost every combination. Most have some lining, some have difficult to see lining and maybe one or two have none. Boiler band lining is often missing. I don't remember the Guy Williams' article you mention but I doubt if it was a very early example as until the 1890s most of the class had Wolverhampton livery with very visible pale lining. I see the point about lining not being visible in photos, but red or brown wheels and frames aren't visible in most photos either

My main concern with model lining is that only the very best model painters appear to be able to produce something near a scale ¹/₈" line (0.04mm in 4mm scale) and so much of what we see is just gross.

Nick

Yes, the answer is in GWW and, in a less up-to-date form in RCTS Part 1 or the RCTS Livery Register for the GWR. It isn't simple, remember there were sixty odd years of the GWR before 1900 and there were many livery variations. The situation is made more complex because for most of these years the liveries used at Swindon and Wolverhampton differed quite widely. There was always some form of lining from at least the mid 1840s, but much variation in colour and where it was applied. At the time the 3501 tanks were built (1885) boiler bands and lining were black with a narrow orange line either side. The orange is rarely seen on photos because, as Mike said, contemporary film emulsions simply did not record it and so treated it much like red. There are some other photos of 3501 tanks that show a hint of lining, and lining is seen on many contemporary side tanks. As in later years, lining on saddle tanks is restricted to cabs or bunkers or both.

Some earlier linings do show up better on photos. The black with white edging and pea-green/straw varieties are usually much more visible. See, for example the photo of a Caesar class 0-6-0 goods engine on the BGS home page. This photo probably mid-1860s or maybe a bit later.

Nick

Wasn't the 22xx the 4-4-2T?

No, they were always the 2221 class. There had been a 2201 class (2201-2220), Dean 2-4-0s, but the last of those had gone by 1921. The 4-4-0 Counties were the 38XX class, although 3800 and 3831-9 had been 3473-82 before the 1912 renumbering.

Seems I shouldn't look at old publications late at night - it actually reads "County," 22XX, 102-3-4  - and I ought to engage brain as well.  (and before anyone asks the big engines were listed as 40XX, no class names for them)....

So, did they really mean the County tanks, or am I missing something?

Nick

...My question, therefore, is how unrealistic/unlikely would a 48xx loco be on my 1947/1948  layout....

According to the RCTS volume, all were renumbered between October and December 1946.

Nick

...The danger here is actually relying on computer monitors and colour prints which can be very variable and not necessarily faithful....

Of course, but equally we should not assume they are wrong without good reason. It's all very well rehashing all the well known and often repeated arguements about the accuracy of representation and colour perception, but in the case of the Wolverhampton blue/green we have, as far as I know, no other evidence. For what little it is worth, my perception of the colour sample (very close to Pantone 3288C) in GWW is a good match for their photo of the STEAM model, though the coloured photo in RCTS Part 1 looks more green. In terms of the potential errors here that's far from definitive, but it is all we can do without more evidence.

On the question of different greens for goods and express pasenger classes at Swindon raised by the well-known quote from The Locomotive, does anyone know of any other source making this claim? Perhaps Simon's point about lining might apply to the saddle tanks with a large expanse of unlined green on their tanks, but it wouldn't apply to, for example, the Dean Goods which were lined. I suspect that any apparent difference was more likely due to two factors. Firstly the number of coats of paint, the extent of rubbing down and stopping between coats and the number of laers of varnish applied. Secondly, express passenger classes would typically have had much larger areas of brown or indian red on their frames and their larger splashers than any smaller wheeled goods engines which would surely affect how the green parts were perceived.

Nick

Jeff,

Whilst I'd agree that the blue-green on Mike's photoshopped photo does look too vivid, where did the idea that "Wolverhampton green was reportedly darker than Swindon green" come from? See the sources I've referred to.

Nick

Hi Mike,

The 3288C certainly looks closer to the GWW sample. The text is not very helpful with Windsor brown, suggesting it is only slight shade change (presumably darker) from the milk chocolate and both might have a slightly purple tinge. Their sample for Windsor brown certainly has a slightly reddish appearance. It is based on Precision P3, which I couldn't find on the Precision Paints web site. They also note that Precision P6 (Indian Red) "looks more like the early Windsor brown with a slightly purple tinge." Just to add to the confusion, the Swindon version of Windsor brown used up to about 1880 may or may not be the same as the Wolverhampton version...

Nick

Mike,

I would add RCTS part 1. an often overlooked but extremely useful part of the series and has a colour plate of an Armstrong goods in Wolverhampton livery, and the second edition of GWW. I've not compared the detail differences between the two GWW editions, but the later one includes Wolverhampton green amongst its colour samples. The caption to this sample reads

A rough match to a plate in RCTS Part I and in Armstrongs of the Great Western of an Armstrong Goods. A model in STEAM Swindon is approx this colour. The mix is Plasti-Kote B53 Blue Lagoon 2 parts; 1 part B7 Night Blue; 1 part Humbrol Green No 3.

 

Pantone 3288C or 3278C is reckoned similar.

The colour appears somewhat darker and a little more green than your's.

As to the frame colour, yours looks well within the range suggested for Swindon's Indian Red. According to GWW 2nd ed., whilst Wolverhampton used a dark red with vermillion edging from 1854-66, they subsequently used a rich milk chocolate brown with black edging and red lining up to about 1880, then windsor brown with black edges and red ling to 1894. Thereafter, there was a gradual change to Swidon practice until the end in 1902.

Nick

Re lineside fencing, as with many topics RMweb has been there before. A quick search on 'fence posts' will find several topics with photos of the real thing including this and this. Not sure whether there are any LNER examples there, though.

Nick

They were meant as replacements for various pre-group 0-6-0s ...

Mostly Dean Goods and 2361s as there were no more than a handful of Armstrong Goods or others remaining by 1930. Deans had always been rare (usually single digit quantities) west of Exeter and, from about about 1920 were usually shedded at Taunton and rarely seen west of Exeter. Nevertheless, there were stil well over two hundred Deans remaining when the first 2251s were built. Distribution of the 2251s largely followed that of the Deans before them except, as Mike says, on the Central Wales lines where they were generally too heavy. Perhaps it's interesting to note that Collett's 57XX/8750 classes, built similarly as replacements for earlier generations of large saddle/pannier tanks were also a bit on the heavy side for many routes until their classiication was reduced from blue to yellow in 1950.

Nick