Ron Ron Ron

According to the pre-delivery blurb, these first 6 locos are fitted with telemetry and their performance is being remotely monitored by the engineers back at the factory in Erie. Sort of operational test beds if you like. .

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Yes they have AC traction motors, Bogie frames manufactured in Austria and I think the engine is a European design too? .

There's an assumption here that "Diesel" powerplants will remain the same as they have been and that the alternative is to switch to electric, but this ignores various changes that are happenning or could be done to improve the emissions and fuel consumption of "Self powered" traction. As an example, the new class 70, like many new types being built or planned, has been designed to be more fuel efficient and as a result is supposed to produce less nasties out of its exhaust. But that's just the beginning. There's a lot of work being done by the manufacturers to find ways of making much bigger reductions in CO2, not only from straight diesel but from "Diesel Hybrid" and other "Self-Powered" trains/locos. This is not a UK-only issue and as pointed out, putting up wires all over is not only impractical on some parts of the UK network, it is very unlikely that it will ever happen on large parts of the planets railways. Self-Power is here to stay (well...until everything goes "t**s-up") even if the UK become predominantly electric for powering its railways. Diesel-Hybrid (Diesel + Batteries + re-generative brakes etc) is one area actively being developed at the moment for diesel locos, but I suppose it's possible to look at Bi-Mode power using Diesel-Hybrid and Electric if it can be squeezed into a reasonably sized package. The Hitachi SET's due to be ordered for the Inter-City Express Programme (IEP) can be configured in such a Bi-Mode for mixed electricified and non-electrified routes, but it requires two power-supply vehicles and distributed traction. Stuffing that all into a necessarily heavy freight loco may be a bit of a challenge. (some clever s*d will probably mention the class 73 after this... ) For the same reasons I gave above, there will still always be a need for "Self-Powered" trains and that includes passenger MU's, whether powered by diesel or alternative means. New rules and market forces (fuel prices) will require that significant change is now required in the way that these are built and powered. In yesterdays "Times" newspaper there was a series of articles covering these sort of issues and rail was specifically discussed in a couple of those. As an example of what is being looked at.... Seimens' new Desiro City - 25% lighter than the current Desiro fleet. The diesel version (these are produced for European and worldwide markets too) would also employ technology to reduce fuel consumption and emissions by a significant amount. Other developments that may be utilised in new "Self-Powered" trains include.... exhaust heat energy recovery and more efficient turbo-charging, diesel hybrid engines, alternative fuels such as future 2nd and 3rd gen Bio-fuels, Fuel-Cell power, automatic Stop-Start engine control, computer assisted engine/driving management linked to timetable and signalling control, lighter construction and interior fitments (e.g. using composite materials) and more energy efficient on-board systems and services. Even with the large benefits of switching to electric power, some of these developments will be of benefit to EMU's too. .

Thanks for that Martyn. Yes they have won or regained quite a few contracts in the UK this last year, which does seem to reverse their fortunes over the last few years. It' may be a sign that the new management is turning things round. However it doesn't alter the fact that they bought EWS primarily for ECS. So far UK operations don't appear to be part of the larger European scheme and as I said, only time will tell if they serious, in the sense of integrating UK operations into their wider strategic plan; or is DBS UK just regarded as a branch line operation? .

No you're not muddled Dave. it is Transfesa. DBS bought the majority shareholding around the same time as they aquired EWS and ECR. The freight flows from Spain and Portugal to Germany and other Northern countries is said to have been a key reason for them expanding into France through the purchase of EWS. That and gaining open access rights in France and Belgium has probably made DBS the No.1 freight and logistics company in Europe. Apart from the Ford train, the scope for daily, or almost daily flows to the UK must be quite significant considering the number of lorry loads coming into the UK from the Iberian Peninsula. DBS must be ideally placed to bid for this traffic, but so far Zilch! I think we can each judge for ourselves if DBS have any serious interest in their UK branch. .

If DBS decide to order a replacement for the Tugs, rather than re-build them or do without; I suppose there's always the possibilty of another type being introduced, such as a slimmed down European gauge loco, GM's new replacement for the Shed or a Chinese cheapy. On the Green note.... You may not be aware that GE, GM and others are now busy working on Hybrid power for the next generation of "self-powered" locos. .

Maybe EWS employees have a better insight here, but your interpretation tally's with my own (simply gleened from the railway media, internet and rail forums). After Canadian National took over in 2001, did EWS lose its way? As you say EWS just happened to come with the package and were not the reason they bought Wisconsin Central. (IIRC CN only owned 31% of EWS, the majority was owned by two investment groups) Certainly staff complaints and moans about management actions, inactions and decision making indicated a lack of clear direction. The six years under CN also saw the rise of a greatly expanded Freightliner and other serious competitors such as GBRf and DRS. I would have thought that poor leadership and lack of direction don't exactly help if you're trying to fend off the opposition? ....and yes, DB bought EWS for their Euro Cargo Rail subsiduary and that companies European running rights. Apart from direct access to French markets, DB has access right into Spain via it's majority ownership of Transfesa. So EWS was effectively bought so that DB could aquire a major chunk of the rail freight capacity linking SW Europe, through France into Germany, Central and Northern Europe. Only time will tell if they are really interested in their UK freight operations. .

If I remember correctly; wasn't that possibilty mentioned by one of the top EWS boys in one of the "mags" a while back? .

Everything governed by the ?? ? Mmmm? Of course it is, it is a business after all. The very reason for which the railways were built in the first place. Taking on and sorting out virtually the whole of BR's freight empire (outside of Freightliner) must have been a massively difficult task. I'm sure some would have said a task almost doomed to fail given the inheritance that came with it. That burden is something that the new start-up FOC's and a rejuvinated FL haven't have to carry. Getting rid of the huge fleet of 1950/60's era geriatric locos was a given, but the remaining "newer" stock (56, 58, 60's ) clearly were a liability too, despite the relatively junior age of the latter two types. With their low levels of reliabilty and availability, coupled to the resulting high maintenance costs, it's no suprise that the 56's and 58's were withdrawn. Plus you have to consider the effect on rail freight needs caused by the closure of most of the UK's coal mines and the run down of our heavy industry. On the other hand (well the way it looks to me ), the class 60 story is bit of a mixed and rather sad one. The newest and most modern ex-BR diesel loco in EWS/DBS's fleet, you'd have thought it would have had a decent future ahead of it? . Despite the many early problems (didn't it involve the largest number of warranty claims ever made by BR on a single contract ? ), the concensus appears to be that it's a well made and solid performer. However I think the 60 may well epitomise many of the negative aspects of the former state railway when it comes to ordering new equipment. If the story is correct, BR adopted a "knobs & whistles" approach to specifying this loco, resulting in what is arguably an over-engineered and complex machine. Whatever thought was given to reliabilty and future maintenance requirements, clearly it wasn't sufficient for economic operation in an open market. You do have to question if that was the right sort of approach compared with say, the class 59 (rugged, durable, relatively simple with just enough high-tech to do the job). Anyway, at the end of the day harping on about the past is of no use whatsoever. Like any company, DBS has to look at its current and future business and organise its assets accordingly. Whatever the recent history of the company and this loco class, the fact is they have a tired fleet of 60's, many of which have been out of service for quite a while. If they have a future need for this type of loco post-recession, then at some point they'll either have to spend some money on restoring them to a satisfactory condition, or look at bringing in a replacement type. I read somewhere that the options were looked at quite a while back; and range from major overhaul to a complete rebuild with new engines and electronics (that includes replacing the electronic traction control stuff too). I assume that the more that needs to be done, the greater the attraction of a complete replacement becomes. Another possible option is not to bother either way and not have a "heavy-hauler", but personally I can't see that being a long term situation for such a large operator. Who knows? Before dismissing it as an option, it might be worth reflecting on the possibility that it might make more sense to just continue double-heading the few services that need that sort of power? Whatever DBS do, it has to be the right decision for them and if the 60's do go, so be it; that will be the right decision full stop! As a non-spotting, slightly enthusiast, interested in the railways type of person , I find it all a bit sad as these are my favourite diesel freight locos. But the reality is that sentiment matters not one jot. It would be nice if they go for the complete re-build though. .

Dave's post has already been corrected by Phil, Phil and Martyn, but if I may add just a couple of comments.... As the guys have already pointed out, the FOC's don't have, or operate under franchises. They are open access operators. AFAIK, once licenced to operate, they are free to bid for any contract going and are only restricted by the availability of suitable paths (OK I know there's a bit more to it, but it's effectively open competition). As far as locos are concerned, where they don't own them outright (e.g. EWS/DBS's ex-BR fleet, DRS heritage locos etc.), then they lease them from ROSCO's, manufacturers or the banks. There's no public money involved. In effect, Freight is the only truly privatised part of the railway. They are completely exposed.... and as there's plenty of competition, it's unlikely that any of them would be saved by the public purse if they ran into trouble. The passenger carrying side isn't immune from the market either (GNER, NXEC !). The only difference is that government has to step in to maintain a service and organise a replacement operator. I thought of that when I typed that post. "Private company" ??? It is one of those "muddied" areas, but even though they are constituted like any privately owned business and operate accordingly, ultimately they are publicly owned. There currently are and previously have been a number of similar examples in other areas of interest. I have a sneaky suspicion that the different parts of DRS's operation are subject to different commercial disciplines (i.e. the Nuclear stuff), but I may be entirely wrong? The commercial reality of life in the real world? Enthusiasts may not like it, but locos are nothing but machinery; assets employed in the furtherance of a commercial enterprise. It only matters that they are effective in both cost and productiveness. Does anyone get worked up if DBS retire any of their lorries or forklift trucks? (....runs for cover.... ) .

If reports are correct, Class 70 production has stopped. The first six are all delivered; the next six are said to be due later next year (sep/oct/nov ? ). Production of the remaining 18 has been deferred until further notice, i.e. if and when traffic picks up again. That may not be until 2012 or later. Is that because as a state owned company they aren't as worried about "certain parts" of the balance sheet as the other FOC's ? .

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This appears to be a question ! Wrong section perhaps?

That's it then; all six are in the UK now. The next delivery (six more) won't be until the end of next year. The rest of the order seems to have been deferred for the time being, due to the economic downturn. .

So only a total of 6 out 30 being delivered now. Six more at the end of 2010; then due to the recession, no date has been planned for delivery of the remaining 18 ! Looks like they could be a rare sight in some parts? .

Big Ugly Friendly So and So ?? ...soon to be available in 00 and N gauge, from our friends in Barwell. See - http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php/topic/4228-Bachmann-cl-70/ .

As new locos have to conform to regulations concerning their environmental impact, which includes noise emissions, are some people going to end up a little disappointed by the sound these make? Apart from their advertised operational capabilities, I thought Freightliner bought these on the basis that they are supposed to be quieter, as well as using less fuel and producing fewer nasties out of their exhausts. .

Is that Cockney rhyming slang for something.....? .

Should that be... "everything BUT New Freightliner"...in which case I have to agree. It could be worst.... http://www.thameslin...blackfriars.jpg http://www.thameslin...9-in-livery.gif http://wayne-radford.fotopic.net/p57026375.html .

Freightliner were having a revised branding exercise anyway, the new Cl 70's are just the first to be seen in it. The new font is now right across their web site. I agree, it is a bit rubbish. .

We've known that you can do this from the early days after the Dynamis was released and I'm aware that some people have used multiple Dynamis handsets this way, but I don't recall seeing much discussion about it on here or elsewhere? Are there any issues regarding conflicts e.g. the Command station getting confused by multiple responses to it's transmissions ? If it works without giving any problems then that may be a solution for those who have an issue with the roster size. Of course you won't benefit from the other facilities that the Pro Box provides, such as the ability to have multi-IR Tx/Rx units. .

I quite agree. Plenty of other managers have made strong comments or critised referees and it's a storm in a teacup, even when it's a high profile manager like Benitez or Wenger; but when the manager with highest profile of all does it, then it's a lovely juicy story for the tabloids to feed on. Of course I think SAF should show a little more dignity on occasion, but he clearly is a passionate manager and he does have a right to an opinion like anyone else. However, I have to say 8 times out of 10 his comments are often taken out of context and twisted for best journalistic effect. You can see this quite frequently when a seemingly inocuous comment at his weekly press conference is picked up and made into something it never was. He was wrong to make the comments about Wiley (...and I also thought he meant not fit to do the job ), but it's hardly the crime of the century. Mind you, the Ref was half way back up the field when he should have awarded a clear penalty to Utd in that match and he did seem to be struggling. Still, he didn't half make up for it on his next Premiership outing though. My father in law is a referee and quite active in the association. He's always muttering about how something has to be done about Ferguson. About what for goodness sake, I ask him? I never get a straight answer. IMHO, there's clearly an attitude towards this particular manager in the FA RA, justified or not. There have been rumblings that certain high ranking individuals have been stirring this one for a while. .

Just a point of order there. I think it's fair to say that Bachmann always said from the off, that the Dynamis would be able to memorise 40 loco's. They also said that it would be able to accept the full range of addresses up to 9999 loco's - and it does just that ! I still have the original leaflet/flyer, that they handed out at Warley when it was first announced they were introducing this system. Nothing has changed as far as I can see. They may have failed to deliver on some promises, in print (Pro Box PC interface) and verbally (cost of the Pro Box), but as far as I can see, everything else has been delivered as originally advertised. The only suprise when the Dynamis finally came out, was in the way the 40 loco memory/roster works and the fact that you can't just input the address of any loco to run it. It has to be stored first. I'm guessing that's a result of the system being related to the ECoS, where it's not an issue because there is no practical limit on the number of locos you can store in it's memory (the actual limit in the ECoS is 16,384 locos). Unfortunately, by setting a limit of 40 loco's on the Dynamis, this has become a problem for some users. Personally I wish the memory/roster had been higher, e.g. 100, but it isn't, so if that's not enough for some, then it might be an idea to look at alternatives. In addition, dare I say that maybe we need a reality check here; this is an ??80 DCC system; ??210 - 230 with the Pro Box. If wireless operation is the attraction, look at the cost of some of the alternatives. Digitrax offer IR based wireless at minimal extra cost (for the receiver modules), but almost every other wireless system is based on radio and will cost at least ??400 for the basic set-up. Add extra handsets and see how the cost soars then. As an example of how much some alternatives will cost, one UK Digitrax dealer is advertising the forthcoming EU version of the Duplex wireless Super Chief at ??428. I'm not sure, but I think you still have to add the cost of a power supply to that. Extra wireless handsets are listed at ??160 each. Therefore a system with two handsets will cost at least ??588; or with 4 handsets ??908. I'll leave others to do the maths on other alternatives. Was that a rant? .

Oops ! How did I forget Brush ? Still British owned too. I wonder if they still have the capacity to manufacture fleet sizes? Their last big order was for the Class 9's and the last ones were completed over 7 years ago. Their last diesel loco (class 60) was designed over 20 years ago and production was completed in the early nineties (16 years ago?). I suppose the overhauling and repair work is a much scaled down operation compared to what they were like 10 to 20 years ago. Also, ramping up a production facilty for a small'ish run of UK gauge diesels may not be the most worthwhile investment, especially so if there's no guarantee of further orders to come later. .