APOLLO

All the next set of shots were taken by my dad, (with me spotting - but I lost the notes decades ago !!). A couple (the super D and the semi) from the late 50's early 60's. The rest in 1966 and 67, when the Brits had their last fling. We are at Whitley Crossing, a mile or so north of Wigan North Western on the 1 in 104 climb out of town, a pretty stiff climb from a standing start, and trains not stopping and running at the bank had a 50mph restriction through the station. So, hard work in steam days. The nearby signalbox is Rylands Sidings which controlled access to the sidings and former Beech Hill and Standish colliery railway system which closed around 1964. The sidings were used in 66 / 67 by engineering trains. Rylands sidings had 30 levers, and was situated adjacent to the up line, 1463 yards south of Boars Head Junction, closing on 1 Oct 1972. The overhead electric went live in July 1973. Incidentally on the flat land behind the crossing the new girls high school was being built at this time. This was demolished in 1992 land is now occupied by housing. The footpath crossing (locally known as Whitley Crossing) was replaced by a footbridge around 2000. Here its what it's like here today. These shots taken through the god awfull pallisade fencing. Is it to keep us out, or them in ??? This is probably the best shot I've ever taken. 8 o'clock in the morning in April, sun just came out in time !! Tornado Northbound. And finally Whitley Crossing's replacement bridge. The old signalbox was about behind where the middle of this DMU is. Oh for the good old days. The Brits allways whistled for the crossing here - wonderfull. Brit15

Very highly paid ones at that, don't forget their flashy palaces also. And it's rampant in every sphere. No money left for the nitty gritty any more. Sad Brit15

I remember Clans were seen occasionaly through Wigan (and Garstang further north) back in the early 60's as some were (I think) allocated to Kingmoor then. They were also regularly used on the daily Manchester Exchange to Glasgow afternoon express, which ran via Tyldesley & Wigan North Western. Brit15

The Fat Slags go HST !! gan away fuu mi bait, man !! Brit 15

Newbryford - Yes thats the one, one station was named Manchester Central. I allways thought it was gauge 1 - but time plays tricks with my memory !! (owd'er and daft'er as they say !!). I'll dig out those programmes. Brit15

Anyone remember the very large scale trams which were exhibited seemingly every year at the Manchester exhibition in the Corn Exchange near to Victoria station ?. They allways intrigued me, the sheer size, weight, noise and smell of ozone !!. The was no scenery (or very little), and the track was sort of sectional. I also remember a live steam end to end gauge 1 layout here - the steam being electrically generated by a low voltage / high current third rail set up. GMMT or something it was called. I remember a Peak class loco on this layout. One train actually crashed into the end of the layout, scattering all the onlookers, wiping out the station building, and ending up on the floor. Manchester back then was THE show here in the North West. I still have all the programmes from the 60's (somewhere in the loft - yet to find !!). Quite a few layouts mentioned more than likely where exhibited here - just that it was so,so long ago I can't remember them. Brit15

As I said, dad was a press photographer with only a passing interest in railways and in his youth was a keen cyclist. I still have a medal he won for the Wigan Wheelers cycle club Wigan to Shrewsbury and back - 123.5 miles in 7 hours and 28 mins in July 1930. a club record back then, when most roads were cobbled through towns, no motorways or bypasses, tram lines also. Back in the mid 60's dad had an old Mk 7 Jag - but my dad loved 2 wheels, and bought a Vespa scooter for his work transport, which on this day (back around 1965 or) so took us up to Garstang. (I hated riding pillion - scared to death !!!). We visited the then open Garstang & Catterall station (on the WCML between Preston & Lancaster still open back then - it closed on 3 Feb 1969) and the remaining stub of the old Garstang & Knott End railway which served a coal merchant at Garstang Town station, about a mile from the main line station and alot closer to town. The Garstang & Knot End would make a nice model railway. (Has anyone done / doing it ?). Garstang & Catterall Station Garstang Town Station Brit15

Edcayton - I wasn't meaning to be personal, and I understand your points of view though not necessarily agreeing with some of them (and no doubt vice-versa). I was involved many times in my job as a gas engineer with the planning and installation of gas pipelines and associated governing equipment. The siting of governor kiosks (a fibreglass kiosk around 4m x 3m x 2m high, usually green or simulated brick ) brought me no end of problems from folks nearby (and usually NOT affected from them). We did our best to placate folk - but you can't please everybody - AND the thing had to go somewhere OR they would freeze this winter AND have cold beans for tea every night !!!. (The tales I could tell --- !!). It was doing this work that I learned the fact - "Never buy a house with a nice view". (some sod will later spoil it !!). Technology came to the rescue eventually (for alot - but not all) cases in the form of the ERS govenor module - placed underground and out of sight except for a vent stack and small control box - yes, you've guessed it - folk complained about those also - what's that?, why there?, why me?. Exactly the same with HS2. Difficult, nay, impossible to please everyone in our modern, high tech, crowded little isle. Brit15

Indeed they could. The old Whelley route exists as a footpath, but the route is still mostly there. A large viaduct across the Douglas valley near Boars Head would need rebuilding. Also the route in general has no sharp curves. Gradients seem not to be an issue. Somebody in Network Rail knows things we don't though. Just down from my house is the Old Whitley crossing, a footpath over the WCML. The foot crossing was replaced with a large and grand footbridge around 10 years ago. This footbridge was clearly built to span 4 tracks. Similarly the nearby Spencer Road overbridge built 25 - 30 years ago, again room for 4 tracks. I doubt rebuilding the Whelley loop - but - you never know !! Brit15

Whats so special about the Chilterns ? Just because it's a high cost area ? Every square foot of england is someones beloved land. Progress is unstoppable, and future generations will need this infrastructure as there will be fewer travel alternatives as the cost (and availiability) of oil ever increases. Dare we deny our offspring (and there future ones also) this infrastructure based on our selfishness and personal perception of beauty. Take a look at the Settle and Carlisle, or indeed the electrified line over Shap & Beattock. Railways ADD to the landscape, (if you deny that you probably should not be on this site). There are also many areas of beauty with no railways which will never have one, Chilterns included, - so not all is being "ruined". What about my beloved Wigan ? A dirty great new Maintainence depot planned on beautiful flowery fields alongside former colliery slag heaps a couple of miles to the south where very rare great crested newts live !!. On another site mention is made of a "Pinch Point" at Wigan - the WCML is 2 track from Wigan NW to Standish - 3 or so miles, where the 4 track formation starts (It's actually 2 track for a few miles north, but very easilly 4 tracked from Standish). The LNWR proposed 4 tracking Wigan to Standish, and a couple of bridges have abutments were built for 4 tracks. It was not done as there existed then the (now abandoned) Whelley loop line from Bamfurlong to Standish. I had a look this morning having a walk to the post office, from Spencer Rd bridge you can clearly see a mile south to Wigan NW and north to Boars Head, there is still room for 4 tracks without to great a disruption. May get done, may not, this line is 100yards from my beloved bit of Wigan, would I object ? - Hell NO - Bring it on - and quickly. (The newts can come and live in my garden !). Brit15

Well we have at least 20 years to sort things out, the important thing being connectivity. I don't know Toton, Derby or Nottingham but I think what will be needed is a rapid and very frequent link between the 3, be it heavy rail, light rail, tram etc (not the god awfull guided bus waste of time !!). There will be many more areas, one being the western leg link to Wigan passes close to Leigh, which is the largest town in England without a rail service. They can't have a HS2 station, but they will need links to it, to Wigan, Manchester or Warrington, preferably all three. Separate to HS2 but needed now. Another point is the country's two major airports, Heathrow & Manchester. I know Heathrow's future is a bit up in the air (!!!), but they can at least plan for dedicated train links between the two (or Heathrows succesor), replacing shuttle flights. Germany has been doing this for years (Lufthansa, DB, Koln - Frankfurt etc). Finally connect the system by a link from Manchester to Leeds. Doesn't need to be 250mph capable and the old 4 track route Stalybridge to Huddersfield then on to Leeds via the old Gildersom route may be viable. Only 2 tracks used and the tunnels exist at Standedge. 100mph would be possible with Pendolinos etc. This would open up many cross country possibilities. Dare I suggest re-open Woodhead also. Brit15

Explanation of the service patterns here. Seems a bit complicated, and only a proposal as yet. (long, long way off). https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/69743/updated-economic-case-for-hs2-_august-2012_-explanation-of-the-service-patterns.pdf Seems stopping Glasgow - London trains will call at Wigan Warrington & Crewe & onto HS2 at Crewe. Glasgow / Edinburgh - Birmingham trains will stop at Wigan but not Warrington or Crewe, going via the new link at Bamfurlong. Brit15

Pictures of 47 500 at MOSI here http://www.theghoststationhunters.com/Other/47-500-Fire-Damage/27741671_72k4Jk#!i=2338369354&k=9DbcNMF Brit15

This is an interesting (108 page) government document. Describes the routes / reasons etc etc in plain english. Well written I think https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/69738/hs2-phase-two-command-paper.pdf The more I think about this, the more I think it should go ahead - right now. Yes in a very early thread here I questioned the concept, stating that I hope it would not become just a "rich boys toy", but the linking into conventional services (described very well in the above document) and continued services on conventional lines makes much more sense. I can forsee much opposition, the route through Cheshire is very much like the Chilterns (very high value rural housing), no doubt modifications (more tunneling) will be the outcome. There will no doubt be objections from Liverpool and Warrington, both important centres who's HS2 trains will join the route at Crewe (again described in the above doc in full). Stafford also seems to miss out. Interesting to note there are two infrastructure depots and two stock depots on each leg. Crewe & Bamfurlong (AKA Golborne) on the Manchester leg, and Staveley & Crofton on the Leeds leg. Looking at the Bamfurlong plan you will need a rather long and wide plank to model it !!!!!! Brit15

RonRonRon, you are 100% Correct - And that is a whole new subject in itself - best not discussed here. My point is that the days of everyone having a car are slowly coming to an end. Fuel cost being the main factor. I know several people who have given up there cars mainly because of cost. I intend downsizing myself. Factor in the unstoppable rise of car use in India & China, there are big energy problems brewing worldwide. Over the timescale of the whole HS2 project, just expect to see many ongoing major changes in road transportation in this country. Introduction of road pricing, etc etc. Cost of fuel is reportedly going up 4p this week, (Not Georges fault this time !!). Brit15

Ian H - The high speed Leeds to London trains back in the 70's were known as "Deltic plus 8", 8 reffering to the no of coaches. They where marked "High Speed Train" in the public timetables. (Well before HST's). RonRonRon - I only looked the overview map of the line to Piccadilly, makes much more sense in a tunnel through this area ! Don't forget folks that all these lines will be permanent infrastructure, fit for 200+ years into the future. This is the second phase and no doubt there will be future scope for a line to Liverpool (which is on some newspaper plans) and also extending up the East Coast to York Newcastle Edinburgh & Glasgow. I doubt they will continue up the WCML over Shap & Beatock to Glasgow. Oil will have run out in 50 years or so (affordable oil for the common man is fast disappearing as I write !!) so a start on these high speed lines now is the right thing to do. Of course many (myself included) argue for more to be spent on existing railways. This has allready started (but not enough). In todays financial climate, compromise is the key. Brit15

Phase three will be to link Manchester and Sheffield via Woodhead !!! BigD Had you (or anyone else) an inkling regarding the exact route before today ?. The plans seem very, very detailed yet it seems hardly anyone knew much till today. My wife has a friend in Lowton who will be affected - not a demolition job but within 200m or so. Don't know there reaction yet (they probably don't know !!). Anyway, not really all that bad. I live at the side of the WCML (100m) and it has never bothered us. (only when they do the rail head regrinding at three o clock Sunday morning !!). Brit15

It seems to get better for Wigan. On this plan, detailed flyover connection to the WCML at Bamfurlong is a spur to theWCML (southbound) and a huge purple area alongside HS2 marked "Proposed HS2 Rolling Stock Maintainence Depot". Ideal location, rough land / grazing fields and will affect very few people here, also bring needed skilled jobs to a wide area. https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/69073/hs2-msg-wcm-zz-dr-rt-52202.pdf https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/69072/hs2-msg-wcm-zz-dr-rt-52201.pdf Springs Branch reborn (though a couple of miles further south) !!!!!!!!!!!! Brit15

Believe it or not, Wigan will be linked to the proposed new line !! The new line will link to the existing WCML at Bamfurlong, just south of Wigan. A 3 way junction just west of Manchester Airport will take the line past the Airport and through some very dense urban (and expensive housing) areas more or less direct to Picadilly, a new station on the north side of the existing Picadilly so not Mayfield or Exchange. Expect tons of objections from folks in Altrincham, Lowton, Lymm, Mid Cheshire etc etc. North from the 3 way junction the proposed line passes through mainly rural land to follow more or less the route of the old Great Central branch (Glazebrook to Wigan) past Glazebrook, Culcheth and Lowton to join the WCML at Bamfurlong. Many of the old Great Central lines are very usefull to HS2. (are you listening Dr Beeching !!!) Map tells all https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/69068/hs2-msg-mr0-zz-dr-rt-72101.pdf Rest of maps here (both legs to Leeds & Manchester) https://www.gov.uk/hs2-phase-two-initial-preferred-route-plan-and-profile-maps#route-map-west-midlands-to-manchester Interesting to say the least. Brit15

Wait till it snows !!!!!!!!!!!! Nowt will be going anywhere, like the WCML between Wigan & Preston today !! (4" of snow). Brit15

I never had a cap !!!!!!!! Brit15

Video here of the train passing through Piccadilly a minute or two before the incident. What is that ticking noise on 47 500 as it passes ?. http://twitpic.com/bxtgqc Brit15

Now I may have the tale a little wrong about the above picture. Sir Nigel has one lamp, indicating a stopping passenger train. The book I was reading this afternoon - Foxline scenes from the past 52 - Wigan to Preston the Northern Union line remembered has a little more info, page 49. (pix of 4498 1 April1967 at Boars Head on Crewe Carlisle A4 Locomotive preservation society special) Sir Nigel had been purchased privately in May 1966 and overhauled at Crewe 66/67. It states amongst her running in turns was the 3P07 - 23.45 Crewe to Preston and the 2K52 - 05.30 Preston to Crewe local passenger. (No dates). Given the direction of the train (southbound), headcode and darkness, and it looks like passenger coaches rather than parcels vans behind her, I think this train is the 2K52. Though I never remember my dad getting up early, he probably did so ! - we did live only a mile from Wigan NW back then !! Brit15

Good Pix - see some gantrys are up for the Liverpool - Manchester electrification. Brit15

This couldn't have happened at a worse place. This Junction is very, very busy. Glad no one injured. Having it rough the railways of Salford recently. The Diamond at Salford Crescent Junction failed around Christmas, and may not be relaid untill April. (according to link below). It was straight - lined, leaving a single track in the Salford Crescent - Man Vic line for a short distance. This is / has caused serious problems. Not sure if this bit of line is back to normal. By the way Todays incident was around a mile east of Salford Crescent and not at this junction. Long complicated story if your interested here. http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=77356 Brit15