davetheroad

Well I think I solved it, hopefully!

Easing out the centre axle boxes fixed 5 of my 8 wagons but I was after a cheap fix that worked every time. So I replaced the outer wheels with ones from a Hornby brake van and that worked. It so happens that I have 6 Hornby brake vans and two box vans, all with 3 hole disc wheels. You can't get cheaper than that. The Dapol wheels fit the Hornby stock.

ps - Bachmann wheels don't work, the axle bearing cone is a different profile and the wheels are a tight fit in the Dapol tanks.

Interesting, I just rushed out and checked my newish Dapol tanks. Indeed a couple of them can derail while being propelled through some points, specifically a small radius code 100 and a curved turnout which has had the radius reduced.

A quick think then I popped out the middle wheelset and no derailments. so the problem lies with the middle wheels. I checked on a flat glass mirror and the wheels line up perfectly so when they cross points some wagons actually balance on the middle wheels.

Maybe all that is needed is to provide some vertical play in the middle axle boxes.

How would you do that?

Talking about battery development I remember the senior engineer commenting about why their very promising new technology started failing after a few months use. He said the problem was we don't really know how this stuff works at a molecular level.

On a positive note - I have lost the link to the BBC item. They showed a new technology based on sulphur? that could give up to 5 times? the capacity. Apparently the problem with sulphur is bits break off the anode and degrade the battery so they engineered the anode to have the same characteristics as the inside of your intestine. All those sticky out hair like structures trap the bits that fall off so they still function. The downside is less recharge cycles but this is countered by more time between recharges. Hope it works.

For those with more space for the batteries how about Lithium Ferric Phosphate?. It appears they are safer, deliver nominal 3.2V and are available in AA size with 400mAh or 600mAh. They just fit in 00 scale body width and a pair with a 9V voltage booster might work. Pity an AAA size is not available.

For those with plenty of space you have NiMH at 1.2V per cell. AAA size can have up to 1000mAh? and You can fit 4 of them in a 00 coach or wagon giving 4.8V for your voltage booster.

Just a quick update about sound. I have two Bluehorse boards so set up one loco as a diesel and the other steam. Switched on the sounds. You can have the chuffs etc switched off but the bells and whistles still work. I started up the diesel and accelerated so there were diesel sounds. Then switched to the steam loco, started it and accelerated, the chuffs were there but surprisingly so were the diesel sounds. The app is blending the 2 sound tracts!.

Thanks for the information Nile. I took a look at the Rigado site and that 350 module is very small and powerful so hopefully there will be a smaller board produced in due course. I presume of course that batteries provide clean power?

Maybe the size of the board also had something to do with Bachmann and Bluerail being in the USA.  If you take the UK loading gauge of say 8 feet at 00 scale that is 32mm and the USA loading gauge of say 10.5 feet at HO scale is 36mm. The board is slightly too wide to fit in 7 of the 22 locos I have tried and that might be due to it being designed for the USA market!.

I had a quick test session this afternoon on my rolling road with an old Bachmann controller set to 12V. It was interesting to see that although you could use the board with DC power you could not have a DC loco and a Bluerail sharing the same layout. If you turned down the power to slow the DC loco the Bluerail one slowed as well.

The Android app is not complete either but as there Is so much stuff there it could take some time to sort it all out. There is not much information on the bluerail site about what all these advanced options etc do. I think we need some written explanations?

I have already started a wish list :-

item 1 - onboard battery voltage monitoring with an app warning when the voltage falls too low and it is time to recharge the batteries. My Deltang units have a similar feature with the option to use with voltage regulators, monitoring the input voltage of the regulator before it is boosted. My workaround will be to use an audible battery alarm which then cuts the power if the voltage of one of the lipo cells drops below 3.3V, however this is a bulky item. This is also relevant to the need for a 'stay alive' capability if you are using DC or DCC power.

Excellent report and I am glad I won't have to repeat a lot of it. I am taking a different approach as my layout is deadrail so I have just taken delivery of 2 of the battery versions of the board. They arrived from CoastalDCC the day after ordering along with two 8 pin wiring harnesses. If you want one you better hurry as there are not many left in stock or so it appears. I will be using an Android tablet.

I intend to test the boards with a tender drive Hornby Princess Royal which means putting the bits in a brake coach and, although my layout is early BR steam an early cheapo Hornby green class 55 Deltic. As this has a motor bogie there is a vast amount of space inside for all the bits and it is DCC ready. I will try the Deltic first and hopefully it will arrive Tuesday.

G'day All,

 

As part of my blog I have included the introduction of Bluerail to Victoria Street.

(The last third of the post)

 

http://glennofootscray.blogspot.com.au/2016/09/there-is-always-something-on-go.html

 

Regards Glenn

Nice blog!. I notice you mention the board shuts down if there is any power disruption however small. On the bluerail site they say if you connect a battery this will take over automatically if the track power is disrupted. This does not help you much as there is no space for the batteries and associated circuitry.

I intend to operate at 12V, actually from a battery as my layout is all deadrail. However if I was running from track power I would still install a small capacity battery so I have the equivalent of DCC stay alive. If the loco was drawing 0.5A a pair of 100mAh batteries should theoretically give you about 20 minutes of power disruption protection.

I think it is a good idea to buy the battery version with the extra leads as it avoids all those soldering problems.

The bluerail boards arrived today, impressive as I only ordered yesterday. My first impression is they are huge, the smaller board in the photo is one of my Deltang receivers I use in my other locos. Bluerail need to shrink the footprint a lot. Luckily the board just fits in the coach I will be using. Next I need to build the battery voltage regulator bits. I intend to use a Pololu 12V booster with a 2S 7.4V Lipo battery.

I ordered a couple of battery power boards and harnesses today from coastal DCC which I intend to evaluate in both steam and diesel locos. The current board design is large so for steam I am going to put the board and batteries in a corridor brake 3rd coach attached to my Hornby tender drive Princess 4-6-2 loco. For the modern loco I am looking for a second hand one with lots of space inside the body. Apparently a lot of Hornby locos have motorised bogie drive so I suppose any of those will do although I do like the look of a class 37.

I would probably use the Groove Cube via amazon at the moment.

 

Simon

I was looking at the groove cube shutter as it only about 1 inch square so can fit in a wagon/coach etc. They are available in the USA for less than $15 new but when I checked on Amazon UK they want over £50 for one!

Where is the justification for that?

Also looking forward to getting my hands on a pair of the boards. I will be using them deadrail but don't want to buy a deadrail kit!. All I need is the battery wires attached to the board. In fact IMO it would be better if they just supplied the board with a couple of SIL sockets soldered to the battery pads.

I am sourcing my own batteries and will use a 2S pair feeding the bluerail board via a hobbyking switch/battery protector and a Pololu 12V voltage regulator, at least that is the idea.

Have you found anyone here in the UK that can supply those little 1" cube speakers that feature on the bluerail site?

Oh, I agree with that entirely, but the challenge is still there. I think things are getting close: the concept has been proved very successfully for direct RC control to replace DC. As I have said on this and other threads, model rails are fundamentally different to model cars, boats and planes, and need a different approach. A simple, low current, bridge rectifier can be made using 4 diodes and small ICs are available to do this: easily incorporated into a small PCB. A single circuit board is already more than enough for many, but more than one is definitely too many for a commercial solution.

 

I don't mind plugging a charger into a discrete socket, but by discrete I mean, "Not visible in normal operation" and also removing engines from the track is a no-no. I suppose that we may eventually move towards inductive charging.

Is this where you don't have a controller as such, but a power supply is connected to the rails via a radio receiver and what you have is essentially a DC layout with a walk about controller?

Model trains may be fundamentally different to boats and planes but I find I use mine in a similar manner. A full on comprehensive operating session uses about 16 locos with about 24 batteries. I simply pop fully charged batteries in the locos at the start of the session, it takes less than 1 minute per loco. At the end of the session I remove the batteries and recharge them. A 'normal' operating session might only have a few locos, maybe 4 or 5.

I use E-flite style 1S batteries and connect them in series for locos drawing more than about 0.4A . I find using 9V through a Pololu voltage regulator gives plenty of power, enough to have my large 4-6-2 pacifics pulling a 12 coach train at over a scale 60mph which is what I am comfortable with for my fiddle yard curves. The charging is via an E-flite 4 battery charger and 2 USB chargers so I can charge 6 batteries at the same time.

I am always removing engines from the track, using Peco loco lifts, I also remove most of the fiddly bits such as brake rodding etc as I will knock them off anyway and I can't see them at operating distances!.

To my mind (weird and distorted as it is) we have the two issues which reflect the fact that model railways has big differences compared to the other radio control hobbies. We don't for example, charge up our trains and take them to an area of open ground/sky/water, play with them, and then go home. We have layouts, and tracks.

 

So we have two potential problems, one is with the aerials: we are not going to have a length of wire being held upright in a length of plastic tubing. We also frequently have metal bodied models. Given the more limited range we usually require for our layouts, I do not think this is an insurmountable obstacle, although the criticality of aerial length might be an issue for 2.4 GHz in some applications.

 

The other is with the fact that we like to leave our models on the layout, if possible, and to keep handling to a minimum. We also have very different power requirements, especially to model aircraft. We don't need need to be able to output high power, so high C ratings are not for us. (Good: this makes the batteries cheaper!) but we do frequently need up to 12v, unless we re-motor everything and don't wish to use DCC on-board sound. Now, I know that the latter is not for everyone and that's OK, but putting in lower voltage motors isn't everyone's cup of tea, either. It turns a potentially simple alternative system into something much more demanding. Finally, the batteries and cells themselves are designed generally to be long and thin. This is not always what we want, either. A round (for steam era) or nearly square (for diesels) cross-section, with varying lengths, suits us better. (I am aware of cylindrical cells, but they seem to be 1S only.)

 

Also, the websites which sell these batteries are - not surprisingly - geared up to sell mostly based on capacity and weight: what I want to be ale to do is specify the maximum dimensions for length, width and height, and see what I can get into that space! Ideally, for 12v motors and anyone with DCC sound decoders, a 3S supply is needed, but this then requires balance charging and can be a problem with finding enough save for the battery pack.

 

The obvious solution to this is, of course, a 1S cell with a reasonably high amp-hour capacity, and to use a voltage regulator circuit to step-up the voltage, albeit at the loss of some power (I believe 20%) and a shortening of running time. (If you increase the voltage by a factor of three, then you will only be angle to provide the same level of current for 1/3 of the time.)

 

Because we don't take our engines back home to the work bench for a wipe down, clean-up, etc, and are unlikely to have easily detachable superstructures and body shells or easily located multi-pin balance charger plugs, re-charging batteries via a plug and socket in anything smaller than 0 gauge is likely to be a major pain in the proverbial.

 

However, we do have in most of our models a 2-pole connecting to the motor built in: I refer of course to the rails, via the wheels and whatever pickup system is used. So why not make use of this more?

 

I am not talking about having all-wheel pickup, just one or two wheels each side taking current and nor I am suggesting that we have all of the track live. Just a few sections of track wired up to a trickle charge supply: anywhere where engines (and multiple units) stand. Engine sheds, headshunts, either or both ends of platforms. For those who want to be really fastidious, just the engine fuelling points. We could charge batteries rather than just cells, but this then requires on-board circuitry (more space used up), so a 1S battery with voltage regulator (ready made circuits from, e.g. pololu, are tiny - and cheap!) on the output side makes sense again.

 

My point is that unless systems are plug and play, with nothing more required than plugging something into the now almost standard DCC socket on engines, then BPRC will remain the exclusive domain of those who are prepared to source the various bits themselves, and get the soldering iron out. What that means, I suppose, is a single circuit board containing the voltage regulator and receiver, simple charging circuit (including a bridge rectifier so that DC, AC and DCC can be used as sources of charge for the cell) with a lead to a 6/8/22 pin plug, and sockets for the power cell and an on/off switch (the circuit for which would be on the main oard). Such a system would not need to be very big, and would work well with a variety of 1S batteries: 14500 or 18650 in the boiler, cuboid elsewhere, etc. For wireless DCC, I would look to seeing all that circuitry being eventually included on the decoder, and interim steps might again require a bit more work, but you get the point.

 

Something that simple would be much more likely to engage the interest of railway modellers, and is designed for rather than against our particular needs.

 

And please, no posts from the already converted about it not being a big deal to plug in a charger, or wire things up, etc. That's not my point. For BPRC to become more popular, it needs to be more accessible, otherwise those who are using risk becoming seen as an odd group at best, or of being accused of elitism at worst.

 

So, what about something simple, making use of just a couple of pickups, with minimal (if any) soldering required for those taking the plunge?

What you need is for bluerail to modify their board so it charges the onboard battery when power is available.

ps - I have several points in your post that I sort of disagree with but as you say I am already converted and have done the hard/fiddly bits!.

Like it!

Nice to see all the different approaches! As for mine...

 

Prototype No.1 of the cam system is up and running: 

 

WP_000813.jpg

 

Turn the axle and the cam lifts the base, which is attached to the cardboard section between the rails. Simple, and works pretty well too, despite being made from a magnum stick, an old offcut of steel rod, some wire and one of those felt pads you put on the feet of furniture!

 

WP_000814.jpg

 

The lifted bit is supposed to look better, but this is only the mk.1. The next ones will be disguised as wooden walkways across the tracks, which hopefully will be less obvious/

 

The idea seems to be worth pursuing, though.

Interesting!

thinks - how about a little balloon you inflate under the plate, a quick squeeze and away you go

Dependent on how much you operate, eventually a coupler tail completes the cut through the plastic, and the train derails. No such trouble with the Brian Kirby system. Only lacks the 'latched uncoupled' feature to fully match Kadee.

No problem, just replace with another free one!

I have 2 problems with the Kirby system.

Over 140 wagons/coaches, none of which have Bachmann non magnetic tails.

Over precise positioning of wagons on coupler, not good at a distance for my eyes.

I am trialing the Brian Kirby system and also a non magnetic one using springy clear plastic strips cut from supermarket grape boxes. I don't mind my layout looking somewhat 'trainsettey' so the choice will be what is most reliable.

Indeed it is Dave. 

I posted about it and posted the YouTube video on the previous page of this thread.

 

I think interest in the UK will to a certain degree be dependant on how soon they can get the smaller versions of the boards (decoders) into production.

However, I'm tempted to buy a couple of the first (larger) version if or when they are available over here.

I might even pick a couple up on my next trip over the pond.

 

 

 

.

I have ordered two for evaluation purposes and intend to fit the first one in a old tender drive Hornby Princess Royal class. As this locos task is to pull 12 coach passenger trains around the layout at a scale 60 mph plus the tender drive handles the job OK but suffers from excessive stiction from a standard start. I will fit the bluerail board in a passenger brake coach  which can also hold one of those little Bluetooth speakers for 'onboard' sound.

Article on the Nordic Semi-Conductor web site......  Here

If you don't already know the Bluerail app is available for Ios and also Android. I was put off looking at this system because it was initially only for Ios. now they have almost completed the android version I can use my cheap android tablet. The boards are not available outside the USA but they will be once there are sufficient orders, 50 I think, to fund the application for European certification. The boards are apparently already compliant but they need the promised cash to pay the application fee!.

Any electrical engineers in the house?  I am not sure that there is a specific advantage of a stepper motor that might make it a "killer app" for a model locomotive.  A stepper motor gives high accuracy and precision in positioning, but do we need that?  I wonder how they cost out for model locomotives?  Would the motor draw less power....?  That might be an advantage.  More low speed torque might be useful for starting long trains.  Witness how Hornby's live steam locomotives can pull long trains.  Do we need that?  Lots of questions...

It seems to me that any substitute type of motor has to be a plug and play replacement for the traditional DC motor, and run on traditional 12V DC. that is not going to happen anytime soon as there is no commercial advantage in introducing such a motor. The hobby has the 12V DC base specification and that is how it will remain for the foreseeable future?

I believe it time for a major invasive re-think into DCC,  for example we still use the 12V DC "analogue" motor to power our models, despite the intervening DCC digital hardware between the  operators controller and the driving wheels.

A motor which is operating very poorly at slow speeds due to running close to its stall current power setting.

 

Perhaps we may eventually develop the technology to replace the 12v motor with  digital stepper motors which offer superb slow speed control and high torque, observe the performance of devices such as inkjet printers DVD drives 3D printers,  to name  just 3 they  all use stepper motors for precise positioning and speed control of the working parts

Isn't this going off topic? Not that BlueRail is on topic as far as DCC concerned as it has nothing to do with DCC and would be better located in the radio control special interest section!.

According to the manual if you select advanced cutting options you can cut by line colour. Have all your vertical lines in one colour and the horizontal ones in another. add a small horizontal line in another colour and set the cut order so the 3rd line cuts before the horizontal ones. That should rotate the blade, in theory!

Should I upgrade to the latest version?

After a year or so break i have been playing around with Inkscape and tried producing some coach sides. It worked well or at least i think so. The image does not look as good as with the naked eye, especially my old ones!. I used some old and curly gloss vinyl with a mirror like surface, or that's the excuse for the reflections. Would matt vinyl be better or stay with gloss and use a satin varnish?

I am using an ancient version 0.48 so would there be any advantages in upgrading? I searched online yesterday and the Inkscape site had a banner over it claiming it was not the real site- argh. Is there a 'safe' source out there.

I am going to have a go at cutting vinyl using a silhouette cameo cutter, hopefully with nice window openings for all those coaches which are not available commercially.