davetheroad

(crossposted from freerails)

Unbelievable! My other Rx-61 has also started to play up. It just will not bind to the Tx. When I try to bind it, I get a solid light for about a second, then straight back to the 2 flashes every 1 second.

So frustrating!

Edit: Well that'll teach me. Switched selecta position to a completely different one and it bound straight away! Doh....

Have you tried binding it back to the original selecta position?

This concept is doable using radio control receivers. BlueRail trains have a video showing such a setup. The big issue is providing short circuit protection for the receiver chip. The Deltang system I use has receivers which have outputs handling up to 6A with a typical small receiver having 1.3A output. Rectifying would be needed for the power supply, unless you used a big battery, readily available. No other power like DCC on the track either

I think such a system would be best suited to a single loco in steam where there are a large number of analog locos the owner does not want to chip. You do get the possible advantage of a radio throttle built in and the ability to control various accessories. 

Light blue on the 4 'scenic' walls and white on the fiddle yard. I am considering 'scenery iisng'? the fiddle yard, eventually in which case all the walls will be light blue

No you don't need a control panel for a DC layout.

 

Little Waltham station.png

 

One engine in steam, branch line terminus. Isulfrog points with a mechanical form of control. Two wires from the controller acting as a pair of bus wires, soldered to droppers at the feed positions. As it is only one engine in steam there is no need to have section switches, the section can stay live.

Yep, that works just fine, I would go all sophisticated and have peco point motors but that means more wires

One thing that DC is stuck with is the need for a control panel, certainly not necessary on many DCC systems and one of the big advantages IME of them.

Check out BlueRail at

 http://bluerailtrains.com/about-bluerail/

They have a video of a radio controlled board replacing the DC controller. I reckon you can do the same thing with my Deltang receivers. giving you DC control with a radio throttle. I think there will need for some protection circuitry added though. You can't have common return wiring either

But that means keeping the wheels clean and the pickups adjusted....

Wheels and track clean and for me actually having pickups. I have seen good, sometimes impressive improvements in performance once the pickups are gone. I clean my track twice a year and have the bliss of no wires at all!

Any length of plain track or sidings could be used to provide charging power at the expense of slightly more components in the loco.

You are right but my old hands are very clumsy so any fancy wiring is now beyond me. A simple system with a set of wires from the receiver to the motor and another set from the battery to the receiver is my ideal. I use a lot of voltage regulators so there are some more short lengths of wire.

someone is trialling a contactless charging system which if successful will eliminate the need for any physical connection. hoever insering and removing the batteries for an operating session works for me.. 

Lots of facts and figures and a soundly put case, but there's still the issue of where to put the battery, you may be able to put one with ease on a tender steam loco, but most locos you can have a difficult time just finding room for the dcc chip let alone a sound speaker, and that is on a reasonable sized loco. Small locos can be a real challenge. And I'm wondering how automation would work with your setup? As you don't use dcc chips.

 

Yes from time to time I do forget to charge my phone, but by your own admission it takes some days to charge up the batteries. But if it works for you then that's good. DCC may not be perfect but it works for the majority of users.

 

Andy

On my steam locos I put the battery in the tender along with the receiver although that could go in the loco boiler if I wanted. I have 3 tank locos. The jinty 0-6-0 has a pair of batteries which slot in under the water tanks. The Smokey Joe 0-4-0 has the single battery in the loco with the receiver and the 2-6-4 Tank has the receiver/battery in a trailing car. Ah!, it won't fit!. yes it will but I use standard consumer batteries and fitting them in the big tank is more than my old hands/eyes can manage. There is plenty of room in my diesels as most of them are full of empty space.

What you want to fit in the loco is down to personal preference. I have the radio on when playing trains so have not considered sound. Sound is possible, I have seen it demonstrated.

Automation is possible even with my simple receivers which have station stop, shuttle stop and reverse available as options. More advanced systems can apparently runs scripts on your smart device although I have not seen this demonstrated.

It does not take days to charge the batteries, it takes less than 2 hours for all of them at my convenience. I have a spare set ready anyway so the 'recharge' takes less than a minute.

I am not against DCC but as I mentioned before I believe the future will be a radio controlled system with seamless onboard auto switching between track power and battery power. It does not matter if it is DCC or another system.

Power on board = battery, what a backwards step that would be, let's examine the pitfalls of such a move. Technology has not reached a point to make a battery that is small enough and provide long term power requirements for a train, then there is the performance issue every time you charge a battery it loses a bit of total storage capacity, look at your cordless drill for example it may turn the drill but has no torque. Then there is the problem of charging it and having to remember to do so, wouldn't it be inconvenient to go for an op session and find your loco is out of charge. Also how do you charge i.e. Plug, in yes there cableless charging but not viable if you have a number of locos. Then there's the cost element batteries only last so long. Bottom line until such time a miracle power source is invented it will be two wires still DC /DCC of course there's always clockwork.

 

Andy

I have a moderate sized 00 scale layout running radio controlled battery powered locomotives. So far I have 49 converted locos. It is a cumbria inspired continuous run with 2 main lines, a continuous run branch and small goods yard plus loco shed. mid 1950's to mid 1950's so I run steam and early green diesels.

Power on board = battery, a backwards step - Actually it is a forwards step, Why? because you get none of the problems associated with delivering power and command signals through the track and wheels. This has been a basic problem even with DC. There are lots of work arounds but that is what they are, workarounds!. with battery power you get pure PWM modulated DC delivered to the motor, no workaround needed.

Technology has not reached a point to make a battery that is small enough and provide long term power requirements for a train - how long is long term? My operating sessions last from 2 to 3 hours with 12 to 15 locomotives per session. My rule of thumb for a 3 hour session is each loco pulls at maximum load for half an hour  and sits idling in the fiddle yard for two and a half hours. That's 56 circuits per half hour at scale 60mph!

Take a large pacific loco as an example. This typically requires about 400mA of battery power to pull a 12 coach express at scale 60mph for 1 hour. The receiver/voltage regulator needs less than 20mA per hour when idling. 30 minutes pulling needs 200mA and 150 minutes parked needs 50mA. That means the battery needs to supply 250mA. A battery that size is easy to fit, large loco tenders can have at least 500mAh with ease. Lets do a large exhibition layout and a 8 hour operating day. There are 16 locos per running line, not excessive in my experience. Half an hour pulling and seven and a half hours idling needs 200mA + 150mA = 350mA, well within the capacity of our 500mAh battery

then there is the performance issue every time you charge a battery it loses a bit of total storage capacity - yes it does, so does your phone battery. A use a lot of lithium polymer batteries (lipoly) and typically they can be recharges 150-250 times, probably more because model train use does not strain the battery the way model plane/car/truck does. A lot of my diesels can use NiMh batteries they can be recharged many hundreds of times, even over 1000!. Back to the lipoly batteries, I average 1 operating a week so a battery should last 3 to 5 years, so I need to budget about 3.3p per battery toward replacement cost, or about £43 per year or even less, especially with NiMh.

Then there is the problem of charging it and having to remember to do so - do you forget to charge your mobile phone? I recharge all the batteries used in a session after the session. I can charge 10 lipoly and 8 NiMh batteries at the same time. With typically 25 lipos used in a session recharging takes less than 2 hours spread over a few days

Also how do you charge - I charge off loco and have 4 lipo chargers and 2 NiMh. I don't have on/off switches either, just plug the battery into the harness before the session. My locos have easy to remove tender and diesel bodies. I can fit a battery set in a loco in less than one minute!

Increased efficiency of your locos - I found converting to battery power improved the loco haulage capacity. It is all down to the lack if power pickups My reading has Dapol class 20's having poor pulling power. my converted one lifts 20 coaches with ease!. Sigle bogie drive? no problem, I use Bullfrog Snot for traction and pulling loads of wagons

Batteries can be a viable power source for model railways, even with existing technology!

That would be an excellent future. Conceptually simple enough, but to win general market acceptance it needs a lead manufacturer or a hobby body to develop a proven system, define and package it -  preferably as an open standard - and get major model manufacturers on board.

BlueRail were onboard with a major manufacturer, Bachmann with their EZ App range of locomotives. That was 3 years ago but nothing since. The App part was even 'open source' so anyone could write the control part. Maybe it is being deliberately 'sat on' for commercial reasons, such things happen

I agree with your observation,   the advances in capacity/size/cost of rechargeable  batteries  make self powered stock feasible,  internal battery power is compatible with DCC,  requiring a Wifi method of transmission of control signals  as opposed to using the rails.

I think the future lies in a control system that uses radio to send/receive the data and can seamlessly auto switch between track and battery power. It will have an excellent visual interface for making those fiddly fine tuning adjustments etc. Just think, no more frog juicing, complex pointwork 'dead' etc etc. Users will be able to go all rail power, mixed or all battery.

Can it be done?

Yes - BlueRail Trains first board did just that. Using an Apple/Android App to control the trains. For me there were two problems, first the board was too large and I prefer a tactile throttle to a touch screen. Their next board is even more advanced and much smaller plus apparently I can pair a tactile throttle with the smart device.

They have no original boards left and have paired up with a third party, to provide the finance? The next announcement should be this summer but it has been over a year since the last news

My railway is unbalanced with a late 50's London Midland in Cumberland theme I have 49 locomotives and only one Black 5! and too many Princess Royal class, why? because the layout is mean to be representational of the loco types seen there plus I really like Princess Royals. I would like a Standard Class5 if I could afford it. I think that Class 31 diesel should not be there as well. With about 15 locos on layout including the fiddle yard then we have the rolling stock. About 36 coaches with too many mark1's cos I like the Euston/Glasgow Expresses. About 200 wagons of which half are off layout. for types of wagons I am checking images of actual goods trains in the area and copying those. Model railways are excellent fun and helps keep my mind and old fingers active.

So what about no wires i.e. RC with autonomous (battery powered) locos?  I saw an interesting demo of this by Frank Allen at the Oxfordshire NG open day in June and it was intriguing. Driving a short wheelbase 009 0-4-0 at a crawl over pointwork was an experience I can't remember ever having had before even on the best laid track and the control system, based on cheap off the shelf components  could handle up to ten locos. Frank had  a series of articles on this in 009 News which unfortunately I'd completely ignored but I gather that this is a case of borrowing technology from other branches of modelling and taking advantage of advances in things like battery technology.

You can't get less wiring than no wiring! Of course you still have to have some type of point control which may or may not have wiring. Existing battery technology is good enough for my 3 hour operating sessions.

The way I see it the lead loco is set to the speed you need and the banker at the rear of the train is independently controlled to push with the 'driver' visually adjusting the speed. Not a good idea to have the rear loco coupled and it seems a good idea to use tension lock couplers as you have a visual indication of how much work each loco is doing

You can't make a gentle sweeping curve with anybody's "corners" (fixed radius curved tracks), you have to use somebody's (not necessarily Peco's) flexitrack.

 

I'm sure I will now be told someone makes 6' radius setrack curves …….. 

No 6 foot radius curves but Shinohara make 2 foot to 3 foot in 2 inch increments. You have to buy a full circle though

A variable voltage regulator should do the job, use it to boost say 12V DC to 20V DC. Try Pololu types, I use them extensively in my battery powered trains

I have remotored a few Lima diesels with CD motors and they work well. Question, do you need two powered bogies. On testing I found a remotored Lima class 47 would pull 20 Hornby MK1 coaches and would reach scale 85mph pulling 12 coaches on my level gradient layout. I used a 9V Pololu voltage regulator. endurance testing showed the loco drawing just over 200mA. even with 2 powered bogies the loco will need less than 500mA

The good thing about these older models in the vast amount of space inside for the gubbins. I replaced the large metal weights with lead ones giving even more room. With all that space you could consider using 4X AAA NimH rechargeables, on test I found 4x Duracell 850mAH equivalent to about a 720mAh lipo pack. NimH manufactures calculate the capacity in a different way which accounts for the reduction from 3400mah to 720mAh, a 2S lipo in good as well

I have a couple of locos that need 600mA and the Deltang xx6 series work OK

Any thoughts on the best type of alarm to fit. It appears an internal passive infra red sensor alarm would do the job but only when the lowlife had got into the shed (or rather my shed) There is also the added complication of the thermostat controlled fan heater. Surely this would set of the PIR? As the weak point is the door, or appears to be as is it actually reinforced ? I was wondering if a shock or trembler alarm would be a suitable alternative, the intention being for the alarm to operate before they get into the building and  generate a LOT of noise, the alarm, not the lowlife

I have just heard there is no service on this branch until July. Is this crazy, how many trains do they need and what happened to the previous drivers?

They are right angle SIL sockets

rs online have them

Perhaps

The loco pulls the wagons into the loop then runs around, pulls them back toward your  20feet shed and propels them into the goods spur, uncouples and goes on its way.

The station staff then propel the wagon (s) into the goods shed by hand. I would image there were no more than 2 or 3 wagons in a shunt. If wagons needed picking up they would have been hand propelled into the goods spur.

Sorry Dave but I have to disagree with you about your “very fine control of everything...” comment. The control with the BlueRail app is very good but nowhere near as fine as with a regular, tactile DCC controller...especially were very fine speed control is concerned. The app itself on the screen just does not allow for it compared to my NCE thumb wheel. Plus the need to look down at the screen to control anything, especially speed control, is another negative to the BlueRail system. I can control far more functions far more easily and the speed through tactile feel on my NCE controller without looking away from my train than I can with the Bluetooth app.

 

The one place were the Bluetooth system far outshines regular DCC is in speed-matching and consisting...but especially with speed-matching...it’s far easier,quicker and intuitive with the BlueRail system. But aside from that...I think that the Bluetooth and BlueRail developers have a lot more work to do before the system becomes more attractive to serious modellers than DCC.

What I meant to write was very fine control of parameters. I agree with you that a tactile feedback throttle is superior to a touch screen which is why I prefer the use of a knob as I can watch the train rather than the screen, because of this my bluerail boards are sitting in the drawer. The tactile interface also applies to the various knobs, buttons and switches on my Deltang transmitter. There is a video on the blurail site showing a game controller being used to control a train so a single hand throttle should be doable.

With the bluerail board you have very fine control of everything, in a lovely easier to use interface, It is not specifically aimed at the novice or toy end of the market although it can be used as such.

Why is Bluetooth more attractive for the serious modeller?

Programming the receiver board is a joy as there is no need for a test track and a really nice visual interface menus system in the App. No need to worry about CV's etc. You can have very fine adjustments or pre sets. for example shunting/freight/passenger response at the touch of a button. Of course it is not Bluetooth that does this as it is merely a communications protocol. You also have bi-directional communication with potentially hundreds of locomotives.

For me it is the BlueRail App that is the best aspect, along with the ability to switch between track and battery power automatically. As I am old and like tactile feedback on my throttle ( a knob) so I can watch the train rather than the app I will try out having a separate paired hand throttle with knob., meanwhile I am half way through an extensive station buildings scratch build so no more experimenting until winter.

WiFi or Bluetooth or whatever are radio methods of transmitting data directly from your hand controller to the receiver in the loco. this means you don't need a DCC style base station to provide data to the loco through the track. This has obvious advantages as the track only has to provide the power, or you can use an on board battery to remove the need for any track power. BlueRail trains original BlueHorse board shows a glimpse of the future as it seamlessly auto switches between track power and on board battery, removing any worries about live frogs etc You can run it purely using on board batteries as well.

Radio control with battery power is entirely possible in 00 scale even with present battery technology. I have diesel locos that can run for hours on standard NiMh AAA rechargeable batteries. IMO existing battery technology is sufficient to power almost all 00 scale trains in normal operating sessions. I have over 40 converted steam and diesel locos. Oh the joy of no track wiring and track cleaning twice a year.