Karhedron

Just a thought, points 1 and 2 in your original list might be a bit hard to reconcile as the Ecton dairy was built in the buildings once used by the copper mines as a smeltery. If the mines had not closed, the Dairy might not have been built where it was.

23 minutes ago, KNP said:

Many thanks for this info so it looks like I will run UD as 4 & 6 wheelers and ED as 6 wheelers only.

I assume a mixed train of these would also be seen with UD being the prominent one.

Yes, mixed trains were common although rakes from just one dairy were not unknown. Basically as soon as more than one dairy was open on a route, it was more efficient for the railway company to consolidate milk trains. The other thing that sometimes happened was milk tanks tacked on the rear of passenger trains. This was allowed as they were classified as non passenger carrying coaching stock (NPCCS) rather than freight vehicles. The Southern was a particular fan of mixed trains but they could be seen on other companies' lines too.

On 03/11/2023 at 14:04, Nick C said:

Wikipedia says of Express Dairy:

 

Quote

While rival Express Dairies preferred the Great Western Railway, United Dairies preferred the Southern Railway.

Which suggests you can use either, but Express would be more likely.

I might have to go and edit Wikipedia as that is not really true. ;)

Dairies built their depots wherever there was adequate production to meet their needs and connected their depots to whichever railway company happened to be operating in the area. Since most parts of the UK were the domain of a single railway company, the dairies were obliged to do business with whoever owned the nearest lines in most cases. A few traffic flows changed hands over the years such as the IMS flow from Dorrington but this was very much the exception to the rule.

United Dairies was actually the biggest user of the GWR and also had more tanks constructed at Swindon than anywhere else (although don't ask me for exact numbers as I will have to trawl my notes for that ;) ).

On 05/11/2023 at 01:03, MrWolf said:

My personal preference would be Express Dairies as it's more often associated with the GWR and I rather like the blue livery (Weren't the tanks on grey frames lettered GW in some cases? 

As @Mark Townend said, the United Dairies livery is reminiscent of the old Tri-ang milk tankers, which always makes me think 1950s rather than 1930s, even though I know it was around long before.

The GWR had lots of United Dairies tanks with flows from Whitland, Carmarthen, Totnes, Marshfield, Wootton Basset, Hemyock, Moreton-in-Marsh, St Erth and Wood Lane. They did have some Express Dairies too but Express was more prominent on the SR and LMS.

Also, there never were any 4-wheeled Express Dairies tanks. Express did not start using milk tanks until the introduction of the 6-wheelers. Only United Dairies, Nestle and CWS used 4-wheelers IIRC. They were all rebuilt as 6-wheelers by the late 1930s due to the poor running characteristics of the 4-wheeled chassis at speed.

On 05/11/2023 at 01:01, big jim said:

and this unusual Hornby wagon for £8, can’t say I’ve seen this one before but it certainly stands out!

Here is the prototype at Lostwithiel. As you can see, the Hornby model is just a reliveried oil tanker so is not particularly accurate but it looks quite smart.

On 10/11/2023 at 16:35, DavidBird said:

2. Express Dairies did not close their Ecton Creamery and continued to ship out milk via the railway. 

The Ecton creamery was United Dairies rather than Express but we can probably extrapolate reasonably well what might have happened.

Let's imagine that in the early 30s, United expanded the dairy rather than closing it. Ecton was only dispatching about 4000 gallons of milk per day to London so you would need to get it above 10,000 to be worthwhile. This would have had a knock-on effect in that Express might not have opened their Rowsley depot (which took a lot of the milk that had formerly gone to Ecton). Now instead of 2 x 2000 gallon tanks per day, we would be talking 3-4 3000 gallon tankers which might have been enough to keep the line open.

There were a couple of occasions when milk traffic might have ceased, I don't know how the efficiency of the narrow gauge transporter wagons would have held up during the manpower shortages in WW2 but if we are being generous, the traffic might well have survived into the BR-era. It would certainly have finished in the mid-60s when BR and the MMB signed the "Western agreement" which ended milk traffic into London on the MR and ER and concentrated traffic on the SR and WR.

On 13/10/2020 at 09:16, HGT1972 said:

The two-axle TRV/TRF tanks did see some use. In 1984 a short-term contract saw a new milk train start from Swindon to Carmarthen. The Swindon loading point had been busy from the 1970s, sending milk to West Wales, Cornwall and Carlisle to suit creamery capacity. At Carmarthen the milk was transferred to road tankers and delivered to the Green Grove creamery at Felin Fach. The refurbished two-axle tanks were in pool 0345 at the time while the three-axle refurbished versions were, at the same time, working to and from Whitland.

Fascinating, I must have missed this post the first time around as I have only just found out about this flow. I don't suppose you know of any photographs by any chance?

Here is is, just on the western side of Bog Goods yard.

In an amazing stroke of luck, I have found it. It was located on Currock Road, just by the bend, more or less where Topps Tiles is now. This is right by the line so is it certainly plausible that it had a siding (although this particular map does not show the lines unfortunately). Now I wonder if I can find any more photographs.

Ah slightly more info here. There definitely was a Nestle factory in Carlisle itself in the 1940s (and possibly going back further). One Mr Edward Farish used to work there and keep the boilers running. The photos below show they definitely handled dairy traffic. Maybe Carlisle library should be my next port of call.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cumbria-31130822

1 hour ago, Jeremy Cumberland said:

I've read that the Dalston factory was rail connected. It's right next to the line - I don't know why @jjb1970 should think it isn't - so a rail connection seems obvious, but none is not shown in my mid-70s rail atlas. The factory opened in 1962 (does this fit in with your dates?) and was involved in milk production, which sort of fits, but I can't see why it should send tankers to London. The milk it bought in was sourced locally, and the factory made condensed and powdered milk, which would have gone out in vans.

Opening in 1962 would be too late for the article in question (1950s). Still, thanks for sharing as that does imply there was another Nestle facility in Carlisle at one point. I think this earlier one was involved in the dispatch of fresh milk rather than making processed products.

Just for a bit extra context I was read that the Carlisle - Willesden milk train was made up of tanks from Express Dairy at Appleby, MMB at Aspatria and tanks from Nestle Siding at Carlisle. The first two I am familiar with but the only Nestle factory I have been able to find in the Carlisle area is the current one at Dalston. I was wondering if there had been a previous site nearer the city centre.

I have found references to "Nestle Siding" at Carlisle. The nearest Nestle plant I can find now is at Dalston but the article implies the company once had a siding near the station. Can anyone shed any light on this please?

On 25/09/2023 at 10:37, Nearholmer said:

Now draws nigh the day when you discover some really interesting fact or photo or diagram that it is too late to include!

That is always the way. 😄

On 25/09/2023 at 10:37, Nearholmer said:

Do you think I can safely put it on my Christmas list this year?

I was hoping it would be out in time for Christmas but to be honest, I think that might be a bit tight as it has to be set out first, then sent to the printers.

On 15/08/2023 at 14:56, Nearholmer said:

How forthcoming is the forthcoming book? I’m greatly looking forward to it.

The book is finished. It is all in the hands of Wild Swan now. 🤞

This site says that Billingshurst lost its goods service in 1964 but the siding to the dairy remained open a little longer. Only one source so I would not take it as gospel without corroboration but it seems plausible. The mid-60s were the time when BR and the MMB signed the "Western Agreement" which consolidated milk traffic into London on 3 main routes starting from Whitland, Torrington and Penzance. If Billingshurst was still dispatching by rail into the 60s, this is the time I would have expected the traffic to cease.

https://www.wisboroughgreen.org/project/railway-services/

I am not sure about that. Both the lorries visible in the photo are flatbeds loaded with churns which implies local collection to me. If the milk was going to London by road, I would have expected to see tanker lorries. I would be surprised if Express stopped using rail tankers to take the milk to London and moved it in churns by road instead.

Then again, stranger things have happened. A look through the working timetables would probably be necessary to work out when Billingshurst ceased sending milk by rail.

On 28/07/2023 at 11:57, Nearholmer said:

Another picture, after the yard has been ‘rationalised’. Looks as if the building has been extended, as shown on the map, and is being used for road, rather than rail, transport.

 

What is happening here is that churns are being collected from the surrounding area by lorry and delivered to the dairy. Here it is chilled and piped into the tanks for dispatch to London. You can see Billingshurst in operation here.

https://www.yfanefa.com/record/24288

Billingshurst was indeed the first country creamery that Express constructed. The only creamery they owned prior to that was Faringdon which had been built independently and then taken over. Milk tanks from Billingshurst initially ran to Cricklewood and later some traffic ran to the Bollo Lane creamery at South Acton. Tanks ran behind the Portsmouth - Victoria train as far as East Croydon. Here they were consolidated with other tanks and worked via the West London Line. Kensington Olympia was mainly a marshalling point with tanks being tripped from here to the bottling plants.

The tanks in that photo are LMS examples, part of the first batch of 6-wheelers built in 1931 to diagram 1994.

On 29/07/2023 at 10:28, Wickham Green too said:

I think what appear to be flanged ends are the 'inlets' to a thin canopy over the top of the tank, flared out to capture cooling airflow when in motion ...... this idea doesn't seem to have lasted very long.

Yes, it was a sort of sunshade. As you say, they fell out of fashion which probably gives you an idea of how effective they were.

On 05/08/2023 at 20:43, Oldddudders said:

Silly me! I thought tetrahedron was the RMweb milkman!

Close. If I ever change my handle, I will consider that one instead. 😄

On 24/07/2023 at 10:59, Nearholmer said:

I’ve been through every source I can find, including those, disused stations, and the big Cuckoo Line history (Wild Swan?), Britain from above, and relevant Facebook groups  (where I bumped into another chap on the same quest), and no photo of the siding or the loading building so far.

There is a photo of the loading shed in my forthcoming book on milk traffic. Unfortunately I cannot post it here for copyright reasons. It was a fairly plain brick building with a pitched corrugated roof. The roof extended on the road side to form a canopy under which lorries were unloaded. Basically your assumptions in your earlier posts are pretty much spot-on.

7 hours ago, Combe Martin said:

It's an early (no roller bearings) BR or GWR underframe (brake lever on the right hand side and with small same size dampers on all 3 wheel sets. 

 

I'm on holiday at the moment so havn't got my picture books and notes with me so cant have a guess at the diagram no.  The running number looks like 30?5 ?

 

As we've said before, preservation era tanker pictures sometimes tell lies, but when I get home I'll see if it ties up with anything I've got.    From it's paint scheme, its had some 'other' use by BR after it was no longer needed for milk.

I am wondering if that is a franken-tanker. I agree it looks like a GWR/BR underframe but the four tanks saddles were more usual on LMS tanks. I don't have photos to hand of the later GWR/BR tank diagrams so it could be late example just prior to the introduction of roller bearings. 30X5 gives some possibilities.

3055 or 3075 - GWR/BR diagram O56 but then it should have 6 saddles instead of 4. It would also have a central ladder so I think we can rule these out

3005, 3015, 3035, 3045 - GWR/BR diagram O57 but then it should have 6 saddles instead of 4 but the end ladder is correct

3025 - GWR diagram O58 twin tank. Definitely not one of these

3065 - GWR/BR diagram O60 but then it should have 6 saddles instead of 4 but the end ladder is correct

So the frame at least is probably a GWR O57 or O60. The O60s I have seen all had roller bearings so I would lean towards thinking this is an O57 so 3005, 3015, 3035 or 3045. The 4 tanks saddles are a puzzler but may not be an original feature. As you say, departmental use and preserved tankers may have varied from their original. Apart from the saddles, it is a match for an O57.

3 hours ago, BMacdermott said:

LMS - 170 (but 128 of those were from just Diag.1994)

On the face of it, the LMS D1994 would look like an ideal prototype to model. Unfortunately checking the actual photos shows a lot of differences between different examples. The LMS built a large number of tanks to nominally just a few diagrams but I have seen photos of D.1994s with more differences than between a GWR diagram O39 and O42.

On 21/07/2023 at 11:13, Combe Martin said:

My Hornby one is silver and labelled United Dairies with number W1954 which is actually correct for a Diagram 0.53 built for Alpin & Barrett who did become part of Unigate, so is correct.

Actually I am not sure it is correct. W1954 was originally painted in Aplin and Barret's own livery.

Aplin and Barret were not taken over until 1960 by which time Unigate had already been formed so it is unlikely that W1954 would have been fitted with "United Dairies" plates that were already obsolete. More likely it would have been fitted with "Unigate Creameries" plates like the example below.

Of course if anyone has photos to the contrary I would be very interested to see them.

22 minutes ago, brossard said:

4 wheeled milk tanks were found to be unstable runners at speed and were phased out in favour of 6 wheels.  I recall Peco had a 4 wheeled tank.

Yes, all the 4-wheelers had been rebuilt as 6-wheelers by 1937 so they lasted less than 10 years in original condition. "Rebuilt" may be slightly misleading as believe the tanks were transferred to entirely new 6-wheeled chassis. The 6-wheeled tanks outnumbered the 4-wheeled by about 10:1 and lasted from 1931 to 1980 so are probably a better target in the first instance.

On 21/07/2023 at 16:08, KeithMacdonald said:

Has Dapol been reading this thread, or they just got lucky? 😄

 

https://www.Dapol.co.uk/products/4d-003-set1-d1010-western-campaigner-maroon-sye-5-milk-tanker-set?variant=44275610550495

Aaargh, my eyes! 😲

That is the most horrible mix of clashing liveries I can imagine. Why would you sell all those together? Only the silver version would have been seen behind a Western as the others are pre-nationalisation liveries. The IMS tank ran the Dorrington - Marylebone route, the West Park Dairy take worked the Market Lavington - Cricklewood route and never the twain did meet.

I know they say there is a prototype for for everything but even in preservation, there isn't a prototype for that hodgepodge.