wagonbasher

At first I should say, I don’t know.

As Stephen says bricks or stone sets are more likely.  
 

So logically this needs to be a robust, hard wearing surface. Not slippery either I would have thought, don’t want tonnes of cattle sliding around.

The South West geology is very complicated and colours of aggregate vary dramatically but I lean to Grey.  Cornwall has granite and basalt that vary from light Grey to Black, granite is a go to material for setts, they used to make slate setts in Cornwall as well and again that would be dark grey.  If Brick it will be very hard engineering bricks which I think are more likely to be dark grey. If you are thinking of Bristol  / Devon the rocks are not very hard (There were granite quarries on Dartmoor, also Grey) and so imported Cornish or South Wales stone is likely, South Wales would also be dark Grey.

hope that helps

Andy

16 minutes ago, airnimal said:

Wagonbasher, which of the many ailments that I suffer from would be best to fend off friends asking for favours. Like most people over 70 years old I have plenty to choose from.  

 

I have started to letter the first side using drawing ink with a old fashion pen knib. I think the basic spacing is not to far off but the shape of the letters is not quite right yet and the Buxton is pretty bad and it will be rubbed off and I will make a second attempt. I will probably use some Humbrol matt White with a fine brush when I can get a new tin to sharpen up the letters before attempting to do the shading.

H'mm not sure which ailment, but a shaky hand is clearly not one of them.

Andy

On 02/04/2022 at 21:49, Poggy1165 said:

They are all excellent but I particularly adore the Richard Evans one, which would (cough) look good behind an MS&LR outside framed 0-6-0.

 

On the question of being conscripted into doing stuff, you may need to go on an assertiveness course. Because overload can lead to issues, and you really do not want to go there. (My personal brand of assertiveness is very simple - I have learned to say 'no' to almost everything.) Life is too short and there are not as many days left as one would like.

Maybe develop an ailment, something that comes and goes.  It could be quite debilitating at times.

Andy

5 minutes ago, airnimal said:

After the paper tarpaulin had dried out overnight I brushed it to remove any loose lime dust. Having looked at the photograph I have draped mine over the other end but as rule 1 say this was on another day.  I have just got to get my signwriter skills out before I weather everything. 

I like the way you can still make out the bottom planks through the tarp, this is very realistic.  Modelling things that have naturally taken on a shape though a combination of their physical environment and gravity with our soft, semi soft or rigid modelling materials is very difficult.

Andy

Kingspan produce insulation sheets of various thickness.  It is high density polyurethane foam with an aluminium foil top and bottom.  Wickes sell a 50mm deep sheet.  It cuts and carves very easily, it is strong in compression and if filling in between a frame work you can just squeeze it into gaps with a bit of pva. I would not recommend it as a base for your trackwork but that is more about our ability to carve a suitably flat surface and if you want point motors and power feeds the foam gets in the way.  You could build the whole layout from a couple of sheets but you would need some timber edging to stop the foam being knocked and bruised.  Polystyrene is very similar in use and has the benefit of no foil, don’t worry about mess, it’s just a few days of snow storm and your done.
 

Andy

Looks like most of the manufacturers have been covered, not much on shapeways, I did think….  Airfix Waggon Train, that has a covered wagon and horses, lots of people if you are after that Wild West look?  Then I discovered how rare they are and what value they now sell for (well, are advertised for).  
 

I have just looked at the figures in the set, I have to smile, the horses are in an action pose (not sure if that’s walking, trotting, cantering, I’m not brave enough to say for fear of the QI elephant) but 2 of the figures are seated on boxes and 2 are relaxing, lying down.

seriously, a couple of the characters not carrying guns could easily be suitable for a Victorian scene (same period different continent) 

Andy

On 19/04/2022 at 02:08, laurenceb said:

A book well worth getting hold of is "History of the Steam Tram" by Dr HA Whitcombe published by Adam Gordon 2000. It is a paper  read before the Institution of Locomotive Engineers on the 6th January 1937. It is complete with the discussion that followed and the author 's reply. The audience included people who remembered seeing and travelling on the tramways in question. Dr Whitcombe lists all the tramways in the British Isles and British & Overseas manufacturers.

One source of  first hand experience is an article covered=over two editions of ‘Modern Tramway’ an Ian Allen publication.  Volume 28, numbers 328 and 329 dated April and May 1965. I was between 4 and 5 months old….

Memories of Birmingham Steam trams.   C Gilbert.  
 

Mr Gilbert was clearly a regular user if the Birmingham central tramways, a keen observer and in my opinion an enthusiast.

He details the system, the colour light and letter coding for destinations.  Details about what the locomotives carried in terms of tools, locomotive and trailer braking, operations at termini, servicing, depots, couplings and operation.  He also details of incidents, accidents and run aways he  experienced in his 2500 miles per year he was travelling on the trams. He talks of  the way the different locomotives performed and how they were operated.

Priceless incite.

Andy

A thought, an observation for discussion by the thread I know will know (no pressure)  Sorry if this has been covered here before, so much has.

Last week though my work in Tarmac I visited Gaston docks on the Mersey.  I was there because that is where a lot of aggregates are imported into the uk.  Some are sands dredged from the Mersey and others come from further afield like Spain etc.

There was no apparent export traffic anymore.  Powerful  mobile grabs  for unload ships and load lorries.  You couldn’t miss the back drop of the dock itself and the massive Victorian red sandstone retaining walls and this demanded that once home I found out what it was originally all for.  Coal, I know you know.  Loading from Capstan, straight into the hold emptying through end doors.

of course the wagon would need to be presented the right way for emptying as the doors are only at one end and elsewhere in the process they would be turned if necessary. Once empty and hauled back up they were pushed down the line of empty wagons and a new full wagon would move up to the capstan.  The empty wagons would all have their doors at the same end.

My thought, my observation?

there must have been train loads of wagons leaving the docks with the end doors all in the same orientation. In fact if they were on a shuttle, colliery to dock, back to colliery and so on, there would be no reason to change the orientation at the colliery.

So is it fair to say, that coal wagons often ran in trains of wagons exhibiting the same orientation, doors all at one end.?

Andy

31 minutes ago, Phil Parker said:

 

Well, if we switched off RMweb, we'd have more time to make videos! 

Please don’t turn it off I enjoy the bit I can see on my iPad between the ads.  Even as I type I can’t see my words but I know I can get mouser electronics Opamps for battery powered installations.  I’m not sure what that is but I may one day.  Sorry,didn't mean to drift off topic.

Andy

Kerr Stuart internal combustion maybe, not my strength.  
 

Andy

On 11/11/2021 at 02:36, JN said:

Sorry. I hid away from it all when I made a flop at trying to build my first two. I have about five more kits to try with. The only thing I think I got right was the Railfreight Orange - I was going to use the original colours as 'primer' and have weathering to go over.

Hi

Do you know where you went wrong?

I have made some Cambrian BBA’s and BAA’s.  I built them for Black Country Blues when we first started and I knew we were incorporating a steel works exchange sidings.  They rarely ran on the layout because in my hast I didn’t realise that they were not really a feature of Black Country steel traffic.

You have picked a difficult  kit to cut your wagon building teeth on. The fact the main floor comes in two halves, tricky bogies, I changed the bogies so they pivot on brass bolts rather the plastic arrangement as supplied.

It might be wise to try a straight forward 4 wheel wagon first, maybe someone could suggest something that would suite steel traffic?

A couple of points re plastic wagon kit construction, I apologise if you know all this stuff but it is worth saying.

Good light, your glasses if you need them like me an a cutting mat.

Always find a picture to base your model on.  It may be a couple of pictures (it is fair to say the wagon you have picked got chopped about quite a lot of the years)

Craft knife something small and keep it sharp, regularly change the blades.

Once you have carefully cut the parts from the spru, make sure they are cleaned up with a small file, remove mould marks and any residual parts of the spru.  (Careful what you are chopping off, check that photo)

Dry run, try each part you are about to join without the adhesive, check they fit first.

Use solvent adhesives, not that gloopy stuff in tubes they sell kids making airfix planes.  Definitely don’t use super glue.  I’m not saying that there is no space in a modellers tool box for SG but it’s not needed here.  Apply solvent with a small brush.  If you don’t know what I mean, please ask, this is really important.

if you are joining two parts at 90 degrees, try to find something to hold them square.  It might be a modelling square or just the edge of a piece of strip timber.

Defo paint afterwards, fill any gaps with milliput if necessary 

Prim with the the Halford plastic primer if you can.  You can spray outside weather permitting, go easy don’t apply too much.  Many thin coats.

your prototypes were often in very poor aesthetic appearance due to the hard nature of their work, there is a whole world of  weathering videos but there is plenty of time for that later

Hope that helps

Andy

5 minutes ago, wagonbasher said:

You can buy a general arrangement plan for a Kitson 4 panel (I think they are 7mm drawings but maybe I requested that) from Terry Russell, he sells components and parts from tramway modelling, not steam.  There is a very detailed drawing in a big fat book, D Kinnear Clark, Tramways, their construction and working, of 1894.  
 

I am a little surprised that the Birmingham and Midland were having engines reboilered.  They sold out to British Electric Traction in 1899, the whole steam adventure was falling apart.  They did buy the ex Dudley, Stourbridge , Steam Tramways, maybe they had to invest in those.  In saying that BET did continue to run the steam trams for several years after the takeover so I suppose if some of your diminishing fleet needs to be reboilered then I guess they have no choice.

 

Livery, I know the spec, the words but I haven’t got to that bit yet.

 

There is an RM web member called Andy Bailey, also works at Crich. He was modelling a narrow gauge 4mm Kitson 4 window from what looks like an etch.  you will find on this thread in the first couple of pages, may be worth a PM.

 

Andy

 

 

Sorry,just rer read your post and your talking Birmingham and Aston.  They operated to 1902~as steam so Ok reboilering is a necessary cost.  
 

Andy

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

This is all rather apposite as I have started contemplating a Birmingham & Aston steam tram in 4 mm scale as a load for a Midland Railway tram engine wagon. I've gleaned from this site that a number of that company's Kitsons, built in the 1880s, were re-boilered around the turn of the century - spot on for my modelling period. I'm assuming they went back to Leeds for that. I've just got a copy of D. Harvey, Birmingham before the Electric Tram (Amberley, 2013) but it is sadly thin on such technical details.

 

I'm wondering if anyone can advise on drawings, published or otherwise. I have to say I've rather take a fancy to the big Kitsons Nos. 13-27 - there's something very satisfying about the five-window style, though of course the four-window engines have their own dinky charm. 

 

Is the Alphagraphix card kit a reliable guide to livery colours? (Another topic on which Harvey is silent - I seem to see an early two-tone livery and a later all-over red?)

You can buy a general arrangement plan for a Kitson 4 panel (I think they are 7mm drawings but maybe I requested that) from Terry Russell, he sells components and parts from tramway modelling, not steam.  There is a very detailed drawing in a big fat book, D Kinnear Clark, Tramways, their construction and working, of 1894.  
 

I am a little surprised that the Birmingham and Midland were having engines reboilered.  They sold out to British Electric Traction in 1899, the whole steam adventure was falling apart.  They did buy the ex Dudley, Stourbridge , Steam Tramways, maybe they had to invest in those.  In saying that BET did continue to run the steam trams for several years after the takeover so I suppose if some of your diminishing fleet needs to be reboilered then I guess they have no choice.

Livery, I know the spec, the words but I haven’t got to that bit yet.

There is an RM web member called Andy Bailey, also works at Crich. He was modelling a narrow gauge 4mm Kitson 4 window from what looks like an etch.  you will find on this thread in the first couple of pages, may be worth a PM.

Andy

11 hours ago, melmerby said:

As part of the works there has been some incredible new valve arrangements in the water main system:

 

 

 

 

Just for completeness, Tram 20 having just arrived in Bull Street is about to return to Wolverhampton:

 

 

 

Those sleepers are completely different to the ones in Wolves…. The other end of the line is laid on sleepers that are two concrete ‘feet’ joined together with two lengths of steel angle, probably 50mm angle.  How odd.

Andy

10 hours ago, coline33 said:

Thanks, Ray.   I am OK on stairs - I passed the tests in hospital and of course our stairs at home present no problem.   I shall not be happy until I feel safe to drive the car!   Being house-bound I can only get places if I use the ambulance service or one of my daughters does a 100 mile round trip to drive me and Ann in our car - I can get in the front passenger seat.   All the best, Colin.

I am sorry to hear you have been so poorly, you are the rock that holds up this trams and tramway modelling section of RMweb.  I am always in awe of your knowledge of London trams both ancient and modern.  Please look after yourself.

Andy

13 minutes ago, raymw said:

But, in turn, I expect most of them pay it forward, and are able to help others. That is the way in which fora generally operate. If this forum is looked on as more akin to training tutorials, then the tutors should be paid. I'm not sure how many members just sign up to ask a question, and then disappear or only ask questions, never giving back anything. I'm not sure if any of that approach is desirable or not, I suppose from a commercial point of view, every click on an ad helps.

Personally, I maybe log in once or twice a day, but I'm not looking very often at what I 'signed up for', I've moved away form model railways a bit, over the last five years or so. I will not be paying any subscription, nothing against those who, or those wanting a payment, but it is just not worth it to me.  I've just checked - the last model railway magazine I bought was June 2016, and it's still unread.

Personally, and it really is a personal view with no judgement.  Nothing, gives me greater pleasure and reward on Rm web than giving advise and maybe, hopefully, helping someone and moving the hobby on a bit.  

I think that is what it is all about.

Ohh, the daffodil's back.

Andy

19 minutes ago, russ p said:

 

It's not the ads that have been here for ages Andy it the pop ups that seem to have just started. 

How about a fiver a month for ads but no pop ups? Ads that are model related are actually quite useful I've ordered all sorts from different shops. 

But at the moment I'm getting loads of pop ups from GSF and videos of garden birds! 

 

the garden birds are better than the daffodil but, but i like the under waterviews of the turtle, well i did for a while.

Happy to be part of the trial.  ohh a chaffinch, or is that a bull finch?

Andy

13 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

While I agree that the ‘club’ feeling of RMWeb is a large part of the sites appeal, the bottom line is it isn’t a club - its a forum owned by a commercial company.

 

That BRM have left it mostly alone and let Andy Y still call the shots as it were is very much appreciated- but it’s a voluntary action which they are under no obligation to continue if its perceived by BRM (or their accountants) to be wasting money and ultimately disadvantage given the shareholders in BRM.

 

This contrasts with a formal club or society where members are legally part of the process of deciding its future - very much akin to how shareholders hold the power in commercial companies.

 

 

An observation from the last comment,

Many  societies are not legal entities, there is little legal responsibility or expectation on behalf of the members.  Transactions undertaken by the officers of the society are legally in the officers name with all of the liability that comes with it.  This is why model railway clubs that organise 'big' shows operate as public limited liability companies because the individual that books the hall or the accommodation is personally responsible for any costs in the event of a legal dispute.

It can take all of the fun out of it.

Andy

Who says the adverts are for useless irrelevant items.

I saw the words 'Pasties by Post' on one of those middle of the screen ads.  It was there just micro seconds before I dumped it.

What's not to like, Imagine a knock on the door and there is the postie with a pastie, (sort of rhymes) but, too late, my brain had already committed my fingers to instant click close.  I will have to wait for it to pop up again.

Andy

12 minutes ago, 2ManySpams said:

 

I do worry about you sometimes Banks!

Hmm, back to the darkened room.

Andy

24 minutes ago, 2ManySpams said:

 

Sayin' nofink...

 

 

 

 

Really must get a backscene sorted.

That bus has wheels, well 2.

Or at least I can see 1 and 1/2  wheels.     Can you have half a wheel? if it is only a half it cant roll does that means its ceases to be a wheel (phylosophically).  Oh dear, over thinking again.

Andy

On 31/08/2021 at 18:25, Worsdell forever said:

Could we all please have a moments silence for the passing on my OP glass, a Christmas gift from Mrs WF. May it rest in pieces. .

 

And Theakstons don't have any more so I can't replace it. 

 

How sad,  a stemmed glass as well, very sophisticated.  I just looked at eBay, there are lots of Theakston glasses, even tankards and some are stemmed but none like yours.

I mean, as yours would have been obvs.

Years ago I went into a builders merchants and fetched a curved ridge tile with a great lump missing out of my van and asked the guy in the yard if they had anything like this?   He looked and smugly said, no, not with a bit missing like that.
 

Andy

18 hours after posting, 74 views and no replies..

So observations.

Although it is very crude in parts like the bogie sides there are details like the top lights (is that what you call them) and are those air vents?  would suggest it is being based on a prototype.

Not British, there was not that much streamline development in this country and less so in single decks, to the point where most of the RM web tramway contributors can list them.  
 

Not sure if that helped, it might flush out a few more replies?

Andy

On 12/09/2021 at 16:58, Gordon A said:

If none available get some 3D printed centres made to fit Gibson rims.

 

Gordon A

Probably still need to know size and number of spokes..   

Andy

The answer is in this video at about 8 or 9 seconds in, you will be surprised:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w51bgeXlHuc

Andy