Corbs

@County of Yorkshirethank you for sending that over, very helpful. I've been speaking to the boss this morning and we are looking at adding some more options to the initial production run. These are the proposed ones, they haven't been sent off yet but I wanted to share in case there were any howlers. As discussed, some points around typeface etc. need updating. 6453 + 6454 - Kingsbridge Branch No.2 - Wartime brown with orange lining (from photos) 6409 + 6410 - No allocation lettering - Wartime brown with orange lining (no photo, number picked from list) 6895 + 6894 - Kingham Branch - GREAT (coat of arms) WESTERN post war, double lined, 7" strip above doors (from photo) W6999 + W7000 - BR(W) chocolate and cream (post war GW with no GW branding and W prefix) (no photo, number picked from list, based on photo of other set) In addition to this, 946002 will likely change to 6523 + 6524 as Richard H has found a photo of these coaches in the double lined inter-war livery, so it makes more sense to use the running numbers for which there is photo evidence.

For a little update this is a version based on the photo of the preserved vehicle. Pending further refinement from period photos/diagrams. All the letters have been re-drawn, this is no longer adapted from BR Gill Sans. The G, R, W and S are distinctly different.

Neat shot of the water sprinkler in action too!

Perfect, thank you! The Barmouth one was the only one I had previously seen that could be confirmed as shirtbutton. @Harlequin - am guessing 4406 is straight frame, outside steam pipes, tall safety valve bonnet in the pic?

If I may mention small prairies again.... Seems like more 4575s received the monogram/roundel livery than the other two types - I have found only a couple of 4500s with it and no clear evidence of 4400s (although a lot of them are so dirty it's hard to tell). Any ideas why? My only thought was that as they were older locos they would have been lower down the pecking order, but surely overhaul/maintenance schedules would still bring around repaints? Or has anyone seen much evidence that they did have the monogram?

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If it does end up going on sale and has those running numbers then it should have 'Kingsbridge Branch No.2' branding - GWR.org.uk has it assigned there from 5/6/1936 to around 5/1956, condemned 21/2/1959.

Indeed, the perils of copying preserved stock, or other models for that matter. Am waiting for my physical copy to arrive but think it is stuck in the strikes :( so I've been bothering the office asking for various scans and photos in the meantime. The proxy font I've used is based on a BR Gill Sans variant, things like the R and W are quite different but it does allow mock-ups to be made quite quickly.

I think it needs re-doing to be honest - current one uses a proxy font that I was adapting but a trace will likely be better. I believe this pic is from a Didcot carriage - note the R is different to both the ones I currently have - the overall 'weight' is slightly thinner too. The S is less curvalicious etc. Will add to amends list 👍

A couple of updated drafts. Thanks again to everyone who has helped with these. As before these are just drafts and are subject to change. Wartime Brown with yellow-outlined-black lettering. I am still undecided on the number transfers as in the photo they look so much like the older style. Post-war GWR livery with double lining - this is the same set as shown in Russell's book with double lining (but no vertical lining between the two horizontal bands). 7" chocolate strip across the top, lined. Lettering is gold-outlined-black. Early BR(W) chocolate and cream, essentially the post-war GWR livery but with the branding removed and W prefix added to the numbers. Based on the photo in the Bodmin article but with the numbers changed to a different set to avoid a number clash, this is provisionally numbered W6999 / W7000.

I think it may well be - not been able to make out the running number though.

Too soon 😭

Thank you - this is great. I can't say whether we will or won't make any specific locos until the tooling is decided upon but it is really useful in compiling the lists of 'possibilities'.

Think we have an answer on the roundel vs. post war livery question, thanks to BenL for sending through the article. H.C.Casserley's 1949 photo of the same pair of coaches (which I think reveals a typo in that 6778 should be 6978, which would make sense as it's paired with 6977). Loco in early BR livery, coaches in post-war livery with 7" chocolate band across the top and 'W' prefixes added (wartime/post war sans serif font rather than the earlier 'chubby' sans serif shaded font).

Well that is very interesting. Certainly looks like it was taken with the same camera settings, likely same day. No smokebox numberplate on No.1852, just bufferbeam numbers. I bought the picture and adjusted levels, you can make out SOUTHERN and the number on the tender, there does not look to be a painted cabside number. I think you might be able to make out a hint of lining which if true would suggest green livery. https://sremg.org.uk/ states all N class locos were painted black by the end of the war, I presume with cabside numbers and just SOUTHERN on the tender (lower down). No exact date given for No.1852. So maybe this points towards the date being pre-war or wartime? Got to love a good bit of group sleuthing!

Question for fellow folllowers of the Church of the Copper Cap: I am trying to find a member of the 4500 class that received BR lined green livery, but it has to be from one of the first 4 batches (ie. 4500-4554) and it has to have either straight frames and inside steam pipes or curved frames and outside steam pipes. So far I've only been able to find examples with the opposite combination, or they were from the final (1924) build (in fact so far it seems as though most of the lined ones were from the final 20). Many thanks.

Extract of 4405's rear bufferbeam showing no extension block. The Transport Library's photo archive shows 4405 at Totnes in the 1950s (with no extension block visible).

We've had a discussion internally about these points you raise, and we find ourselves in a situation that either A) the photo date is incorrect (if the GWR ran through to Wadebridge) or B) the coach has a crest and not a roundel (or both A and B, or neither). The thin upper band compared to the larger 7" one of the other 1943-onward style makes me hesitant to say it is one or the other. For quite a large class of coaching stock they were incredibly camera-shy so without any hard evidence either way it is difficult to say. While we keep searching for further evidence I'll see if I can draw up the post-war livery of the crest on its own that you mention - this is what I was wondering about in the previous post as GWW does say there were a lot of mixed liveries in this period.

It really is an odd one. If it weren't for the location limiting the timeframe then could be forgiven for assuming it's an earlier photo.

I did wonder that too but I do believe it's the roundel. My reasoning is that blowing up the hi-res image and tweaking the levels, there is nothing written above it (no GWR or G.W.R.) and nothing either side of it. You can make out the coach number closest to the camera but also just about see the one at the other end, which would mean that anything written in between should be visible (reflections aside) On the post-war livery reference, the coat of arms was moved to the first class door (flanked by GREAT WESTERN) and this is in the normal location in the panel. It's also single-lined rather than double (for the inter-war livery descriptions in GWW). Of course, none of this means that it's definitely not the coat of arms, there is nothing to say that in the period of austerity, the coat of arms wasn't applied without any GWR or GREAT WESTERN branding (blimey, two consecutive double negatives). It could have happened, but the appearance does match the description of shirtbutton livery in GWW (extract attached).

On Rail-Online's description it is dated as c1951, which from the description makes sense as the WR took over Wadebridge in 1950. Oddly the file name says '1930s' but I think that is referring to the B-Set itself rather than the photo.

If it's any help, the Bodmin shirtbutton set's main reference photo is dated 1951 and the coaches still have the roundel (and the loco still has bufferbeam numerals).

Thank you both. Colour - Very interesting, just goes to show what a difference light can make to a shade/colour. The drawing uses Pantone 7526 C currently (subject to change). Numbers - I agree that to have matching lettering colours looks gooderer but can't shake the feeling that the numerals are gold. This is one of those humdingers - it is our intention to represent things as close to what they actually were rather than an idealised version, but one needs to be dang sure about it and the photo isn't the greatest quality. First draft of a post-war livery below (thanks to checkrail for the Russell reference) for perusal. Gold outlined black typeface - The lettering is interesting, I have been looking for matches but this mimics what the SDR used on some of their stock, which is an adapted version of Gill Sans, I think the actual lettering might be slightly different but this will need refining if so. Cross referencing the photo and the diagrams/descriptions in Great Western Way and GWR.org.uk, we have the thicker (7") band of chocolate at the top with corresponding 3/8" gold and 3/4" black lining band. Double lined at the waist but without the 'boxing in' at the ends as on the inter-war livery. Grey roof, naturally. 6894 and 6895 are at this point labelled as 'Kingham Branch' on the ends. From what I can tell in the photo the THIRD compartments are not labelled. Smoking and No Smoking signs may need revision, I have done an approximation on the wartime livery but need to look into this more as style seems to have been all over the place depending on the actual coaches. Adding previous page's wartime brown draft for completeness:

Hi folks, I come seeking advice (for which we are all very grateful, it helps us to improve what we make so much). Thanks to forum members for sending over relevant pics of wartime brown, we have a draft (please be gentle) in progress: The main references (and the running numbers) are from coaches pictured in a Model Rail Constructor article. 6453 and 6454 were at this time 'Kingsbridge Branch No.2' set, I imagine the scarcity of these pics is why Lionheart did the same running numbers for their model. Colour - whilst Phoenix have a colour available for orange lining, I am yet to find a good match for wartime 'reddish brown'. The Pantone and RAL books I have don't really have a good match. Has anyone got a recommendation for a paint they have used that we might be able to get mixed? Numbers - Great Western Way makes a point of rationed materials in wartime and how existing stocks of transfers were used until they ran out. With that in mind I am wondering whether the numbers are actually the older gold-shaded-black style instead of the yellow-outlined-black style as depicted above (and by Lionheart). The 'G.W.R.', Guard and First decals are all in the newer style but the numbers look different. This is what it looks like with the numbers from another set, in the old style, for comparison.

Have dropped you a message. Thank you! Will look it up.