Willie Whizz

50 minutes ago, grahame said:

As well as Southwark cathedral I also have this N/2mm model on my layout. It's formally St Thomas's church, but now houses the oldest operation theatre in the UK, as a museum, along with a herb garret which are both open to the public. It was constructed by the Guy’s hospital governors in 1703 to a design by Thomas Cartwright, a 17th century English architect, and replaced the original one built in 1212. It ceased to be a church in 1899 when the parish was merged with St Saviours which later became part of the Southwark cathedral diocese. 

 

 

Nice. But go on then, I’ll bite: what is a “herb garret” please?

Stood at those gates many a time as a small boy ….  ISTR they were manually-operated by an elderly chap who sat in a tiny cabin, just off-picture to the left. The arch that carried the former Nottingham Suburban Railway had an astonishing ‘ringing’ echo for a comparatively narrow bridge. 
 

Really looking forward to seeing it all “again”!

61000 Springbok was a regular sight for me as a small boy, trainspotting around the footbridge over Meadow Lane, Nottingham c. 1960-62 or so. She was a Colwick engine by then and a regular performer on some sort of fish train that came along the LMR Lincoln-Nottingham line late afternoon, just before it was time to go back home for tea. 
 

The engine was invariably absolutely filthy and almost unrecognisable. And then one afternoon the train appeared, hauled by a positively gleaming B1 which turned out to be 61000. And if memory serves, she pretty much stayed that way until withdrawn in Spring 1962. So for that period you could model the loco in either extreme of condition. 

On 18/10/2023 at 15:44, Neil said:

When I was a lad most if not all large shows that I could visit were in city centre locations. York was in the Museum and Assembly Rooms, Leeds the Corn Exchange, Hull, Bristol and Blackburn in city centres too. They all had little in the way of parking, certainly no public car parking spaces though if I remember correctly there was some exhibitor and trade parking at Blackburn. 

 

These days it's rare to find city centre exhibitions, most being in sports halls, schools or community venues in the suburbs where parking for punters is available. I'm sure that this mainly reflects the growth of private motoring rather than a decline in public transport. I suppose this reflects societal trends towards the individual rather than the collective with a high value being placed on convenience. I think that Q4 solo vs group travel reflects this.

 

I think that the thread which spawned this survey and discussion degenerated into ill temper because to do something different, to reprioritise requires a bit of a change of mindset and change can be threatening and advocacy for it easily taken as criticism. The environmental impact of driving to an exhibition might seem piddling, particularly when compared to major polluters but if no one tries to do a bit better or we all wait for someone else to start then what hope is there? Maybe we start by car sharing or using the bus or train where we can?

 

 

I would simply ask you to consider one point. “Resistance to change” is a dangerously vague concept.

“Resistance to all change” - regarding the environment or anything else in life - is actually not so common as one might suppose. It should not be confused with “Resistance to the particular change being proposed”, where the “resistor” may believe, quite genuinely, that there is a better, less costly, or less damaging alternative. Some of those in the shut-down debate were trying to suggest that. 
 

Unfortunately, people who put forward such alternatives are too often seen as “obstructive”, “negative “, “off the Corporate/Group/Movement message”, “dinosaurs”, “deniers” etc. when actually they are at least trying to engage constructively. 
 

Such attitudes were one reason why I decided to leave one of my old jobs, in banking, some years back. Change there was not only desirable but long-overdue. Unfortunately although many colleagues told “them” the new directions being taken were unwise and not in Customers’ interests so they were throwing the baby out with the bath water, the people at the top basically said “don’t confuse us with different facts and opinions, we’ve made up our minds”. The results are visible today on any High Street, and on any website where you can only get to interact with a chatbot and God help you if your problem isn’t one it recognises. 

1 hour ago, Tony Wright said:

Good evening Mike,

 

Regarding Hornby's fixed lamps (are they copying Sonic?), the two Turbomotives I've just reviewed (to be published soon in BRM) have them, front and rear. Express passenger is displayed at the front, and stopping passenger at the rear. 

 

While I accept that the former is the more typical, I cannot find any reference of the Turbomotive ever pulling a train in reverse, of any status (certainly not originally, when the reverse turbine could really only move the loco). 

 

When running forwards, the two lamps are illuminated - very, very brightly at full throttle; far too bright to represent just oil-lit ones. Worse, the tail light is red, even if the loco is hauling a train. Even worse, both front lamps illuminate bright red when running in reverse. 

 

Now, it might well be that if DCC-fitted the lamps can be turned off, but certainly not for analogue. It rather 'spoils' superlative models in my view. However, if illuminated, fixed lamps are what the market desires, then I'm way out of touch! 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

But Tony - surely it’s all your fault?  That so well-publicised view that a loco isn’t quite ‘right’ unless it has the correct lamps for the train it’s pulling?  Unfortunately someone seems to have taken you too literally: these various new locos do have lamps all right; just not necessarily the correct lamps for the trains they typically pulled, let alone for the different trains we modellers might want to use them on!  
 

(Sorry, couldn’t resist …. 😁)

Just to return for a moment to the proposed Hornby Coronation twin-sets, and whether there will be BR post-war variants, I’m still trying to get to the bottom of this in between other tasks. 
 

On a thread in the Hornby pages on here, RobertCWP posted on 5 November 2022:

“Last weekend, I saw Hornby’s 3D printed test models for the new Coronation stock. Two twins were on display plus an observation car. They looked very good.

The twin-first model on display was in BR condition with valances removed.

Alone amongst the twins, the firsts had an extra door on each side but only one side of the model had the door. As you look from the outside, the extra door is always on the right-hand carriage (i.e. there is one extra door on each half of the twin). I did mention this to someone on the Hornby stand but he did not seem to know anything about the models. I did not have the chance to speak to Simon Kohler as he was in the TT room which was not generally accessible.

It’s possible that they have done the mock-up so that one side is original and the other side is altered although neither side had the valances.” …

This squares with my vague recollection that the original announcements indicated BR versions would be produced as well as LNER, but I haven’t tracked that down yet and there seems no current mention on H’s own website. Robert also appears to suggest that Mike Trice was involved and consulted about the design; whether he could add anything further (obviously without breaching any confidentiality agreements) may be a line worth pursuing. 

1 hour ago, Winslow Boy said:

I've been to the World's End. Not once but several times.

What, the one in Lowdham, Notts. not far from me?  Nice pub, but tucked away and a bit “hard to find” - unless it’s the End of the World as we know it …

2 hours ago, iL Dottore said:

I don’t think human behaviour has changed much over the centuries (there has always been/will always be sweet-natured and generous individuals as well as mean, evil-spirited, barstewards). What has changed is how society views and manages said behaviours. For example: bear-baiting was once considered a “normal” spectator sport, now it’s considered abhorrent (as well as being illegal*).

 

An excellent and thoughtful post; and for me the ‘example’ given is a classic one for something I have said on this and other threads before. It is always a mistake to judge the actions and motivations behind ‘historical’ events and behaviours by the standards of ‘today’. 
 

Yesterday’s normal all too easily becomes today’s abhorrent; which raises the question of what we view as perfectly normal today that will be seen as abhorrent in 150 years?

6 hours ago, Darius43 said:

Before this thread becomes more like a Daily Mail readers comments section, perhaps we should read what this green crusader has to say.

 

Darius

It’s called democracy and free speech. Perhaps you have a problem with that?

5 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

Good afternoon Peter,

 

As part of my assisting Hornby in the development of its 'Coronation' cars, examples of types I'd built (in BR condition) were loaned to the firm (certainly not to copy, but as physical examples). 

 

I spent two fruitful days in Margate, going over the models, drawings, photographs and documents with the designers. It was clear that the BR manifestations were being considered (the CADs proved this), with details such as extra doors noted. 

 

One main selling point in doing the cars in BR condition is that just one twin can be bought (say, the FOs for service in 'The Talisman', 'South Yorkshireman' and 'Master Cutler' at various times. Or a Brake Third/Restaurant as found in 'The Aberdonian' between Edinburgh and Aberdeen). Obviously, this means a much lesser cost than having to buy eight or nine cars (it was only for MALLARD's record run that a set was split pre-War). 

 

There is evidence that the streamlined sets were split immediately post-War, and some cars ran as individual pairs in their pre-War two-tone blue, but not for long. These were in original condition with skirts and no extra doors. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

When I looked a few weeks ago, the Coronation coaches in BR livery were no longer being shown as available to order on the Hornby website, nor on those of other major dealers. I fear - unless anyone knows otherwise - that anybody who hasn’t already got an order in may have missed the boat. Curses!

18 minutes ago, BachelorBoy said:

 

Everybody who wants to live in the countryside should be made to apply for a permit to do so.

 

The people who live and work there, especially for vital industries such as food production, would be granted them without problem

 

The chartered surveyors in barn conversions would have to justify in environmental terms whey they need to live in the countryside.

 

If they can't, then either they do not get the permit, or they should be taxed extra in proportion to the excess detrimental environmental effects they produce.

 

 

 

One could, I suppose, equally well argue that since the habit of most people dwelling in cities has been overall more detrimental to the environment than most people dwelling in the countryside - as we all used to until about 250 years ago without marked damage being caused - then everyone who lives in cities should be paying additional taxes for all the harm they cause; and require a permit to breed (which would be granted only in the most exceptional circumstances) so that eventually city-dwelling dies out as a way of life; population numbers return to pre-Industrial levels over a couple of generations, and most of the so-called 'advances' in modern technology that require the use of scarce and/or polluting natural materials become redundant or die away ...

However, I have begun to suspect that some recent posters have begun to "wind us up" on purpose.

Either that, or we need to elect a fascist Dictator to implement all this stuff - somebody in the style of PG Wodehouse's Roderick Spode, 7th Earl of Sidcup and leader of the Black Shorts Movement in the 'Jeeves and Wooster' books - you know, the one who proposed when he won power to introduce an Act of Parliament converting all Britain's railways to the Broad Gauge so that sheep could be transported sideways in sheep vans, therefore enabling larger numbers to be moved in greater comfort for the animals than standard gauge trains where they had to be accommodated 'fore and aft'.  Very environmentally-friendly, that idea.

Hmmm ....

8 hours ago, BachelorBoy said:

 

 

Not many contour lines on that - you can see why somebody thought it would make a good site for an airfield of some description.

11 minutes ago, Neil said:

 

More affordable, well it's possible to do that by raising the cost of private motoring rather than lowering the cost of public transport. Don't forget that if you're over sixty in Wales and Scotland or at state pension age in England then buses are free and you can't get cheaper than that. Given the amount of grey hair seen at the average model railway exhibition I would think a good proportion of visitors would be eligible for this benefit.

Absolutely false to say that bus passes are "free".

They are not; they are only "free at point of use" - there is still a cost to making that journey, and the cost is met by National and Local Government - in other words, Taxpayers.  Being over 60 myself, but still being a Taxpayer, I appreciate this privilege, but I don't take it for granted.

As for "raising the cost of private motoring", well ... as someone was arguing earlier, to embrace pro-environmental changes it would help if they lower prices, not raise them.  Politically your notion is already getting more controversial, and anyone who remembers "Yes Minister" will know how politicians are wary of that kind of thing.

5 minutes ago, BachelorBoy said:

 

Plus of course those costs like depreciation, wear and tear, MOT, insurance, repairs, cost of parking, etc.

 

 

 

But once you have bought a car in the first place the cost of that, the depreciation, and the necessary servicing , insurance etc. are effectively “sunk costs” and will not vary much whether you use it a lot or very little.
 

Petrol, parking etc. are then “marginal costs” which are the ones most people use, consciously or unconsciously, to determine the comparison between whether to make a discretionary trip by car, by public transport, or not at all. On that basis - and given the greater comfort and convenience - people have, certainly until recently, often found the car to be more cost-effective for such trips. 
 

To get people using public transport in the first place it must be:

(a) available and convenient at all

(b) attractive - or at very least not unpleasant - to use, and

(c) more affordable than available alternatives.  
 

All these, but especially (c), are especially challenging outside London. The answer often suggested is “more subsidy” - but that doesn’t make it any cheaper, merely displaces the true cost to taxpayers overall rather than just those who use the service. Are we yet ready to pay that price to fund a “public good”?

There is something in that, but I suspect in many cases it is not because people “don’t want them to”, as such, but that they see it as making them bear a disproportionate and earlier burden compared to what most other countries’ populations are being asked to bear, so far. I have to ask again: I agree we must do something, but why do WE have to purport to be “leaders”? Who do we expect among the worst polluters to follow?  Because if they won’t, we are just punishing ourselves. 

39 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

…

 

For attendees (and I accept it’s different for those who earn a living in “the model railway trade”), whether we go to a model railway exhibition a long way from home, and if we do then how we decide to get there, is about as optional as anything gets in life. It’s something we can individually decide to change, and the very worst immediate consequence of any choice is trivial: missing a show altogether, or having a more tedious/costly journey to reach the show  …,,……. so, if we can’t conceive of changing our habits/behaviours in this arena, because it’s “impractical”, it bodes very ill indeed for us making more significant changes that might actually make bigger differences, in which case: how the dickens can we expect anything to turn out differently from worst-case predictions in respect of climate change?

 

As regards looking at other countries that now have smokestack industries pumping out most pollution: go round your home, look at everything you’ve bought in the past quarter century, and check the “Made in …….” labels. In short, our consumption drives the problem as much as anyone else’s. The fact that the factory is in Wuhan rather that Walsall, or Kassel rather than Coventry doesn’t alter the fact that our decisions to buy things are what sets the factories in motion, and the smokestacks pouring (not that any of that has much directly to do with travel to exhibition venues).

 

 

 

I can perfectly well conceive of changing my behaviour; indeed to an extent I have done so. My point here is that I see next to zero merit in the entire UK opting to wear “hair shirts” about all this, and claiming “we” are setting an example for the World to follow, when actually the World seems to be taking very little notice and all we are doing is putting ourselves at a disadvantage for a minimal practical effect upon the worldwide issue. “Virtue-signalling”, in fact. 
 

As regards “our” consumption (of model railways or anything else) driving the problem - offer me a home-produced alternative of comparable or better quality at a comparable or better price and in principle at least I will take it. For that to happen, though, would require not just radical changes to our behaviour patterns, but to the World’s whole system of international trade and finance - and I don’t see that happening any time soon or without grave consequences if people  try to ‘force’ change. 
 

Nobody ever said this was going to be easy. That doesn’t mean we shouldn’t try, of course it doesn’t. But when large parts of the developed World, and those who are very nearly ‘developed’ now and are accelerating, why should Britain feel a compulsion to be a “World Leader” - a role that fell away from during the years after WWII - and voluntarily subject ourselves (and our railway modellers!) to a greater pain than others are willing to undergo. 
 

As regards my final point, by the way,

the best advice in situations like these is “follow the money”. We should perhaps be asking where the organisations who demand the British Government make us accept disproportionate sacrifices compared to the ‘major polluters’, and will make no

challenge to the latter, get their funding from. 

I don’t claim to be “Mister Average” in this but I might well be. I attend 4-5 model railway shows a year, almost exclusively within a 60-70 mile radius.
 

I do not wish to minimise the overall effects of climate change and global warming on our planet, but the fact is that Britain is responsible for less than 1% of global carbon emissions; therefore the proportion of that percentage caused by travel to model railway exhibitions within this country is pretty much infinitesimally small. 
 

Consequently I feel I have to ask: why should we even be worrying about it on any serious basis? If individuals feel they have to do something, by all means go by convenient public transport or bike, but don’t try to compel other folks who don’t find that realistic or affordable. 
 

Anyone who feels really strongly about these issues should consider participating in a lawful demonstration outside the Embassies of those countries which are currently the biggest and worst polluters (it being already too late to do anything about ‘historic’ situations). We all know who they are. Oh, I forgot, there aren’t any such demonstrations; how curious … why might that be?

3 hours ago, PMP said:

I have in my possession an Awdry book (4th edition), where the N word is used and clearly in a derogatory sense. The book initially published in 1951 and my edition 1954. It’s very interesting as he was of the same generation as my parents, whom would AFAIK never have used such a term, and never did in my presence/memory. That he used the term, and it was published over four editions of the book without change, being generous, shows an uncaring attitude at best. At the time obviously the UK was seeing significant early windrush generation immigration.
The really surprising element for me was that the publisher chose to print, rather than alter the words which could have been done without losing the story line. A reality check regarding ‘different times’.

Indeed. It doesn’t at all make it ”right” but the association between very dark colour (eg a ‘white’ person with a case of heavy sunburn) and the n-word was commonplace in my youth - and to try to be fair to that generation my recollection is it was not deliberately chosen and meant to be racially offensive by most users, however a listener might have perceived it; just ‘descriptive’. 
 

As you say, ‘different times’ and nobody with any sense would do it today; we have learned better. But it is always wise to be cautious applying today’s standards to yesterday’s norms; who knows what words and behaviours we regard as commonplace today that our own great-grandchildren will regard as heinous …?

I’ve sadly come to the conclusion the Second Coming itself is now likely to appear ‘before Banks’ … and I still wonder what has become of co-author Carter, who - assuming he is still ‘with us’, to be fair - has managed to keep a profile so low as to be submarine. 

Interesting that, isn’t it, considering some people are all too willing to point out the “errors” in Vol. 1. 
 

As I’ve said before, when one or other of these ‘sperts writes and gets published a better book accessible to a mainstream audience, they will 100% have an order from me. Until then, for all its actual and alleged flaws, it remains the best we can get on the subject.

One would have to hope though that any Vol. 1 reprint would contain - as a very minimum - the corrections already acknowledged as required on the Banks website. I gather such things are not always legally or practically within an author’s own control, so anyone who decides to lobby the publisher should stress that. 

The “Hive” website which some of us seem to have ordered from (see above) is now showing “Out of Stock” in one place and “Publication Date 1 October” [still] in another!

The wording about Vol. 2 on Mr Banks’ own website has remained unchanged for several years now. 
 

Shambolic!

11 hours ago, thegreenhowards said:

It does amuse me how they think a nice sealed plastic bag adds value!

 

I don’t trade on a regular basis but when someone contacts the club with an estate sale, I see it as an opportunity to offer a benefit to club members. Anything left over, I flog on eBay.

 

Andy

Well, I suppose you could argue it prevents the item being damaged by being jumbled around in a tray full to overflowing of other random old stuff, which is the way a lot of this kind of thing are offered. It shouldn’t double the price though …

Electrification not being interrupted (long-term) by WWII?
 

The GC was not intrinsically a “burden” as suggested, but suffered from being always cast as the Junior Partner in any version of the Grouping you care to define, plus a long-lasting collapse in the kinds of traffic it was built to cater for in the 1920s and 30s.

Blame that on the Government(s) of the era,  not the railway. 

57 minutes ago, br2975 said:

.…

 

Why you ever parted with Steve Cooper, I'll never know ?

Though a Nottingham man, when I go I go the other side of the Trent. (C’mon you Pies!!!).  But friends who are Forest fans seem to believe Cooper is their best manager since Brian Clough; and certainly their sheer faith kept him in a job last season when all seemed lost. 

The East Midlands has suffered very badly with the loss of 'large' exhibitions - in the last few years Nottingham, Derby, the GCR event at Quorn and other locations along the preserved line, and the Newark (run IIRC by the Lincoln club) shows have all gone outright or been reduced to a shadow of their former selves.  There didn't seem to be a shortage of bodies through the doors at any of them (pre-COVID at least), except Nottingham (East Mids) was as I understand it badly affected by an 'extreme weather event' killing the attendance on the Sunday and never recovered.  All so sad ...