jointline

The only time I travelled on this was later on in the 1960's, from Euston by then. Was going to Portmadoc, but there were NO refreshment facilities on the train at all...... we had to dash out to a nearby cafe to grab whatever they had. And they say they were the good old days!

Yes, Three bridges should really be two as you say! Remember it well. There was a very heavy traffic load from the Docks at Brentford, even in the early sixties. I have a couple of pictures somewhere, so will see if I can dig them out. It was used muchly for testing AEC railcars from Southall, and many of the publicity pictures of them were done there (as is probably in the references above).

As Nearholmer has said, a lot of branch lines used pretty much the same class of engine for years at a time, particularly if used as part of an auto train. LT's Brill branch used No 23 for years!

The problem I found when modelling a similar situation in my garage is what sort of access do you want for your trains to a circuit or fiddle yard? If a bridge cut off/scenic break is being used, and 36" radius curve beyond it, you have immediately lost three feet of your station space. Also think about signalling, and whether or not the block sections, if any, are a realistic length. Best of luck! Remember Weymouth in the '60s, and would make a great model with unlimited space!

Following my previous post, I attach some pictures. There are a lot more knowledgeable people on this topic than me, but I think I am right in saying that parcels vehicles were common user after 1948, so you could expect to see, and did see, all sorts on parcels trains. The following pictures were all taken about 1961 to 1962 in the London area. There is only one of a parcels train on the line you are particularly interested in, at Bourne End. The vehicles comprise BR GUV's, both long and short, SR utility vans, again, long and 4 wheel; siphon G's, internal framed (external framed were a bit scarce by then in my recollection), Gresley full brakes, LMS 50ft full brakes, Hawksworth full brakes; Churchward full brakes; Collet full brakes; BR Mk 1 full brakes; Fruit D's; fitted goods vans; an old LMS brake 3rd. I also have records of LMS Luggage and Parcel Van ( to D1870, ie 42ft Parcel Utility Vehicle) and LMS CCT vans. I think all of these are commercially available, so no need to kit build! I also think that you could pretty much put any sort of parcels van in a train of that time, so long as the livery matches the period. Most newer vehicles, and those used in passenger trains were often shiny maroon. The rest were grime colour!

Can't imagine they were much different to those used in the rest of the London area. I have a few pictures of parcels trains at that time so will dig them out in the next couple of days and post them here.

You may be interested in Tony Cooke's Track Layout Diagrams of the Great Western Railway: Taunton and West Somerset Section 16 Cooke, R.A. which is available here: https://www.abebooks.co.uk/products/isbn/9781871674057?cm_sp=bdp-_-ISBN10-_-PLP They give all the details, and, more importantly, the dates of changes.

Yes, the 117's had the toilet in the middle coach, and it was a welcome change when they were introduced, as before that the compartment stock, eg on the Western Region services out of Paddington, had no toilets at all. But has been mentioned, you had to make sure to sit in the centre car of the three car set, as there were no gangways originally. They came in quite soon after though. 121s/122s often replaced GWR single unit railcars or auto-trains, none of which ever had toilets, so no change there.

Thank you for that. I have the set somewhere (!) so I'll have a look in!

Yes, thank you. But odd how so many of these depots had so few pictures taken. GWR Smithfield was another, although the Wild Swan book has provided a lot not seen before. It seems uncertain when the line to the London Dock went out of use. Well before the first war I assume, judging by its disappearance from the OS maps from the 1890's onwards. The lack of photographs would be partly accounted for by the fact that the Docks were not "open access", and wandering photographers would not have been able just to take pictures, as they did on the streets. For interest I attach an image of the map I referred to in an earlier post. It is notionally dated 1903, but I think that the railway lines it shows would have been long gone by then, even if the extensions beyond the wool warehouse ever existed.

Yes, spot on!

The whole question of goods/warehousing in the Pool of London is quite involved, and actually very well documented now. The London Docks were of course constructed before railways became universal for the movement of goods, and the whole of warehousing and cargo handling on the river was generally by means of lighters. Reference has already been made to Chris Ellmer's book, but looking at it you can better appreciate the vast number of small warehouses lining London River, which had been there for a very long time, and had always been water served. So it was a lot easier to load anything in and out of lighters to get to the riverside destination, rather than taking it on land. The expertise in particular trades and the trade commercial connections would have been tied to all these small warehouses, and inate conservatism would mean that it wasn't going to move to "greenfield" sites (to use the modern jargon). I won't even touch on Watermens' rights and established rights of wharfage along the Thames. Labour was really cheap of course, and double, triple or whatever handling didn't seem to enter into the calculations in a big way, and specific skills were of course needed for each and every type of cargo. By the time the St Katherine docks were opened they were really already too small for the size of vessels being thought about, and, like the Caledonian Canal, didn't achieve what they were intended to do (as well as destroying a large area of historic London ;-( ). So they, and the London Docks, which combined as one company, didn't attract the attention of the railways, as I imagine the cost/benefit would have been too small, and there were better opportunities opening up all the time further east. All the maps I have been able to access have shown the line to the London Docks crossing East Smithfield, and then, by using wagon turntables, ran along the west side of the Wool Warehouse, and that was it! Only one map, that a Bacon street map, shows a bigger set of lines, running to the west end of the dock. I have never been able to validate this, and it might have indicated intention rather than construction. But I still have failed ever to see a picture of the wool warehouse with railway trucks in it! Or the actual goods station to the north of East Smithfield!! As a PS, interesting that the GWR had sleepers for the Hayes Creosoting Yard brought up by lighter from Brentford via the Grand Union Canal (presumably from the Surrey Docks), and did not use rail transport.

Have just got a copy, but it doesn't actually give any pictures of either the goods depot or the line in the London Docks, accessible only by wagon turntables. If anybody ever finds any I should be delighted to hear about it. The pictures which it does give are also in the Middleton Press books about the area and some others. Having said that it is a good read, and worth buying if you can pick up a copy cheaply. (I just paid £14 including postage).

That would definitely seem to answer the reason for it remaining, thank you. On a slightly different note, the running connection from the Met District to the GW was a little to the west. Using the rather amazing National Library of Scotland Georeferencing Maps you can superimpose it on the current station structure. The platforms were of course much shorter, and the double track went across what is now the east end of the up suburban platform.

That would certainly make sense. Need an expert on breakdown provision to LT lines to come in on this!

There was a lot in the local press as well! It created a lot of interest.

Unfortunately the Ordnance Survey maps for this period are hopeless. The large scale ones were still showing the E&SB under construction in the 1920's and later! They are usually very good. Later on the detail of railway configurations was simplified so much that they are hopeless for working out track layouts. I think you are absolutely correct, and that the running connection at Ealing was kept for emergency or infrequent use. It would also be handy for getting Underground stock to Acton works I suppose, if necessary etc. The GWR was never very speedy about removing unused trackwork and connections. (The one at Yeoveney to the SR was still there in 1962, having been put in in 1944, and out of action a year or so after that.....) The physical connection at North Acton had gone when the new steam lines were opened, so a GW train would have had nowhere to go but continue along the electrified tracks when it reached there. The "official" date for the opening of the steam lines from N. Acton was 19th June 1938 (from two reliable sources). Curiously as a very young boy I can remember seeing LT stock going west through Hayes in the 1950's. Would be intrigued to know where it was going, and by what route. I'll have a look at the Railway Magazine for the relevant period and see if I can find anything mentioned, I think I have those years somewhere!

Hi, just to follow this up briefly. And thanks for the new information, very interesting. The new tracks on the E&SB were opened on 19 June 1938, and were in anticipation of the West Ruislip Central line extension as you mention. By the use of the word "freight" I really meant non-passenger, but Edwin Course in "London Railways" mentions that the running connection at Ealing Broadway was little used in the early days, although there was a workmen's train from Clapham that used it to end up at West Ealing and Greenford! He states later: "At Ealing, the running connection was removed in 1945, and G.W. freight trains from the main line to the West London via the E & SB use the link line to Greenford from which point they can reach the West London line without using the electrified lines." He may have only been thinking non-passenger ie milk, but this is not clear. Even Cooke (in the first edition, which is the only one I have) doesn't actually give a date for the removal of the junction at North Acton from the Ealing direction, but it's difficult to imagine this lasted after 1938, unless there was some traffic, or a pressing need for it, as it would have required , in effect, a new double crossover from electric to GW and vice versa. In which case the 1945 date for the Ealing running connection removal may have had nothing to do with existing traffic, and was taken out later because of wartime delays. If you have any WTT for the period 1938 to 1945 it would be interesting to know if there were any services clearly using the Ealing running connection then. Of course it might have been retained for potential wartime flexibility, as many other junctions were. The additional problem is that there are quite a few references to steam trains on the E&SB, but it is usually not clear whether this refers to the Ealing to North Acton section, or is actually just referring to the traffic coming off the Birmingham line heading for the WL. Most of the time it is the latter, by inference..

You make some very interesting points here! Thank you. You might be interested in the "wiring diagram" from the reconstruction work, which shows the new track plan. I'm not quite sure what you mean when you talk about "the connection to the GWR at North Acton". I had always assumed this was there from the building of the Ealing and Shepherds Bush line onwards, (as North Acton Junction, (the box opened on 3 Aug 1920)), enabling traffic to access the E & SB line from the direction of Greenford? After the building of the parallel GW tracks through East Acton to the W London line in about 1938, this junction became a junction from the GW Birmingham line to the new tracks only, and the default junction to the Central Line disappeared (as they now had their own electrified tracks). There was no longer any steam traffic via Ealing Broadway (freight via Ealing was discontinued in 1938 apparently), and traffic from the Greenford direction would use the new GW dedicated tracks. R A Cooke shows it his map of Section 26/13. ( To be honest I had not known that freight went via Ealing : I had always assumed it went up the Greenford loop and then along the main line through Park Royal. ) I attach a couple of pictures of the construction work at Hangar Lane which might be of interest. Carried out by the GWR of course. Also, from a picture in Alan Jackson's London's Local Railways , Old Oak Lane just before closure (with grateful acknowledgement of copyright to J J Fisher) showing a couple of loco men getting the auto-train, which is where I started with this topic!

Yup, a fascinating area. When I was younger I could never quite work out why the WR lines went under the main line (down to Kensington Milk) , or where they went to, as never saw any trains on them. Never there at the right time I guess...! The GWR always took advertising advantage of the Central Line extensions; one GW map I have showed that GW trains actually ran to Liverpool Street (and not via the Widened Lines...!)

Thanks for this. Only really became aware of the logistics of getting to work for Underground drivers when I read What We Talk About When We Talk About The Tube: The District Line (Penguin Underground Lines). Quite an entertaining read!

Thanks for this Mike. It really only raised itself as a question when I was looking at an early map of West London this morning, and thinking about how far out OOC was, and relatively inaccessible by passenger train. Must admit I had it in mind that railwaymen would normally use the railway to get to work, but there of course is no obvious reason not to use other means of transport, except cost? Southall also had a large hostel, which lasted until at least the end of steam. Fascinating piece of social history about the how and where of working life.

Great picture, thank you!

Thanks for this! Nice bit of history. I still remember the auto-trains going to Greenford. (Some of the family used to take them from Shepherds Bush to Northolt when they had trotting races there, but that was a very long time ago!)

Thank you for that! London Underground drivers used to be, maybe still are, picked up by minibuses to be taken to their depots, but most preferred to be within walking distance because of the early starts. I used to use the night staff trains from Paddington to Reading after going out in London. They weren't advertised of course, but I never found the staff minded who got on so long as you had a valid ticket. Would have been stumped without them!