jointline

Thanks for this Chris. I lived down the line in Hayes, and some of my neighbours and friends were either drivers or guards on the WR. Of course Southall shed was nearer, and within easy distance, so if they were not top link they would have preferred working from there. Agreed! I think we easily forget how far people walked to work. I used to cycle about 10 miles each way at one time, and didn't think anything of it....fortunately not in winter though!

Thanks for this Chris. I lived down the line in Hayes, and some of my neighbours and friends were either drivers or guards on the WR. Of course Southall shed was nearer, and within easy distance, so if they were not top link they would have preferred working from there.

Not sure if this is the correct forum, but here goes! How did drivers/firemen get to Old Oak Common to clock on? There are no stations near, apart from Old Oak Lane, and later on, North Acton. I assume a lot of them lived locally, but there were big railway estates at places like Hayes, and some of the engine staff would presumably have lived there. Old Oak Lane Halt was near the depot, but the service there was not that good, and anyway was on the Birmingham line, not the GW main line. Could they go into Paddington, and then get a lift back on any engine to the depot returning there? I know getting to work was often a problem for many railwaymen on early shifts (a friend of mine used to have to drive to Ealing Broadway from Hayes to open the booking office, because he had to be there for the first train) but Old Oak is not an easy place to get to at any time of day if you were travelling by train. None of the contemporary references are much help.

Thanks for this! Didn't explain it very well! In simple terms it's whether or not: 1. The engine ran round the stock on the down side, and then by propelling the train crossed to the up side/line, and then drew into the up platform; or 2. Continued with the train across to the up side, propelled into the up platform, and then ran round from the south to the north. Having nothing else to do (!) I went back and checked the original sources. "To be honest I don't really understand the other form of working you described. It sounds as if what happened was that the engine ran round and then propelled the stock onto the Down Main clear of the trailing crossover where it crossed over to the Up side and thence into the platform." This does actually seem to be the way it usually happened In volume 2 of "The Country Railway" there is half a page devoted to this, including photographs of it happening. When under ER management, the down train would draw forward from the down platform, and park its coaches by the North Signal Box, then run round and propel them onto the up main, then draw forward into the up platform. However the author draws on recollections of staff saying that they would on occasion use any method possible, including drawing forward onto the down main, propelling the stock to the up platform and then running round via the up main. There's also a very good picture of the first of these happening, with the stock parked in front of the north box, in the book "Paddington to the Mersey" by Hendry and Hendry. I have some pictures from the Transport Treasury post 1958, but they always seem to show the engine (LMR) running round as per No.2. above. I'll keep digging, but thank you for your help!

Thank you. That's a great picture, and captures exactly the thing I wanted to capture in a model! And thank you for the other corrections. To take your points in order: thanks for the correction about the RA Cooke diagram. And yes, down platform line, not "relief". I've got the first editions of many of Cooke's books, and have never updated! I used the actual signal box diagram for planning my model. Yes, I meant the bay splitting starter! A very distinctive signal for somebody brought up on WR practice. The picture I took on 7th April 62 was a day out which included Maidenhead-Wycombe, Risborough to Oxford, Oxford to Witney, and Radley to Abingdon. Returning on a train to West Ruislip that didn't have any steam heating on, (and it was a cold night!) Thanks for the info about running round. The appendix to the working timetable makes no reference to it, so it was probably under local arrangements, being deemed within "station limits". Would be interested to hear if anything else on this turns up.

Just another quick note about Risborough; the track diagram in R A Cooke's Section 26 (page 26/4) omits the line between the down bay and the down relief, which is a strange omission.

Yes, I find it a bit confusing. I took the first picture attached on 7th April 1962 showing the up starter/junction signal. However the Middleton Press book has a picture taken on 20th May 1962, showing a lower quadrant replacement (copyright etc with Middleton Press, and acknowledged). Perhaps this was the actual window of time in which it was replaced? This picture shows the home for the down bay still as upper quadrant, so that may have been the last one at Risborough. On a slightly different note, I seem to think that the working arrangements at Risborough for running round suburban trains changed in 1958. (Gleaned from looking at a lot of photographs). Before that it appears that the engine ran round in the down platform and propelled the train onto the up relief, then went ahead to the up platform. Under the LMR arrangements , the engine stayed on, the train continued from the down platform, crossed the main lines to the up relief, propelled into the up platform and ran round the train there. Would be really pleased to have confirmation or otherwise. Could this have been to do with any resignalling at that time? Just for info I attach the plan of Risborough I did for use with Fleischmann Profi-track. It was achievable, but as I said in my initial post, it was just too big in 4mm for the space I had available. Still have all the track etc, and would like to resurrect it one day!

You're spot on of course! I was confusing "ownership" with actual signals. I loved the upper quadrants at Princes Risborough, especially the up starter, which was a double junction signal, and it was the combination of these with the lower quadrants that made the whole place so interesting to model. Much as I love lower quadrants the upper ones had a certain style! These all seem to have been replaced between 1962 and 1964, but perhaps somebody has the correct date for the signal replacements. But I think there were no upper quadrants left at Risborough post 1964.

Hi Paul I can't really answer any of those questions. But 56xx class 0-6-2s were not that common in the London/Thames Valley area in my recollection, until quite late in the steam period. There was one 66xx class at Southall I remember, but photographic evidence is slim. There is also a picture of a 45xx on the Uxbridge High Street branch coal train just before closure, but I've no idea where that was shedded. Branch services along Maidenhead to High Wycombe passenger were in the hands of 61xx class, and also the 14xx used on the Marlow auto trains. After the Watlington shed closed the branch engine was shedded at Slough I seem to remember, and worked up every day. This was invariably a 57xx series pannier tank. Later on 84xxx class were used on the Chinnor coal traffic, and also 16xx class. My memories are mainly post 1960, as that is when I started going on these lines, and they were then in the early stages of dieselisation. I have an appendix to the working timetable somewhere, so I'll see if that has any more info.

There were certainly plenty of A3's later on, as well as V2s, B1s and K3s. Suburban were often in the hands of A5s as well as L1s. Freight was of equal importance of course. Haven't researched a great deal on pre-WW2, but you will need to consult books about GCR and LNER, as most pictures are, like it or not, are GW or WR! The Watlington branch book is called "Country Branch Line" and you need volume 2. It's a bit pricey, so you might want just to borrow it from the library!

Well, that's one of the difficulties I had, as I wanted to model it as I remembered it in the 1960's. But there was so much interest in the period before that, especially as Hornby brought out an L1, which was common on the suburban services before LMR took over! You couldn't run different periods at different running sessions, as the LMR did a lot of resignalling. Also the passenger service on the Watlington line ceased in 1956, and I wanted to include that! I realised from the start that I could only do the north part of the station in 4mm, but even that proved impossible, as the signal blocks were unachievable. Still think it would be a fantastic project given the space. Saunderton would be a good choice in 00 I reckon, as it stayed pretty much the same all it's existence. For reference, as has been suggested, the Middleton Press books are excellent, Transport Treasury have a wide selection of photos, and there is also very good reading in the Wild Swan history of the Watlington branch, which covers Princes Risborough in detail.

Let me know if you want to know anything else. I spent quite some time researching the line for a model of Princes Risborough, so may be able to give more details of some things.

Not clear what period you are interested in? The Oakwood Press book is a good start, but make sure it is the later edition. The earlier was good, but the revised new edition is much better. The early years, 1906 - 1923 are not that well represented in railway books. The use of ex-GCR stock was very limited after 1923, mainly A5's (Robinson 9N's) and the occasional freight loco, such as the Robinson 2-8-0's. 9K's and 9L's were also used in the earlier periods on suburban services. The LNER period is well covered in the literature, and also worth bearing in mind that from 1958 LMR took over the running on ER services, so you need to choose your modelling date carefully! Also worth looking at Dow's volume in "The Great Central Railway" about the London extension (volume 3 of the set).

The Stationmaster is spot on. Only coal, and that ceased with the closure of Southall and Kensal Green gas works, and the phasing out of domestic coal. Crow Catchpole at Hayes got a few wagons, but can't recall block workings. This was for road surfacing rather than construction work, but open to correction on this. I think they had a rotary tippler, but this was later in the sixties. All aggregates went by road from local pits, and the rates were fiercely competitive, and were very time and distance sensitive. (I used to work in the pricing office of a gravel firm so am talking from first hand experience.) The short distances would have made rail uncompetitive for a lot of it, until the vast quantities required in modern London became a reality, and green belt land became more expensive.

This is one of the most elusive stations/lines to find anything about. There is one photo of the line, probably at Royal Mint Street, in the Middleton Press book about the Fenchurch Street line, and that is about all. Despite searching, I have never seen a picture with railway wagons in or beside the wool warehouse. All wagons crossed East Smithfield using capstans, so no locomotives could ever used in the docks . The only rails I have seen on OS maps show one line running alongside the wool warehouse, but not right to the side of the dock. I do have one Victorian street atlas of the area which shows other lines continuing around the dockside, but have never found anything to corroborate this. As has already been mentioned, St Katherine's Dock was never rail connected. The whole stretch of line from Fenchurch Street to Blackwall had numerous goods sheds belonging to different companies, and has been well documented (except for East Smithfield!) Wagon hoists were pretty common in London, because, of course, like many cities, the railways were built on "arches."

There was an auto-coach, used as an office, or something similar I would think, in Paddington Goods shed, which must have retained this livery until much later, as I remember seeing it sometime in the late 50's or even early 60's. I remember it as pretty matt brown, but I guess it had never been repainted, and was very worn. From memory it was about the same as the brown used on buildings. Can't ever remember seeing any on any service on the WR mainline out of Paddington in this livery, even in the early fifties though.

Small country stations such as Colnbrook had board crossings. Services were only hourly, and "Beware of the Trains" notices were put up. Where there were level crossings they usually had a side walk for foot passengers. The main thing about board crossings is that they were usually at stations which had all stopping services, and had very few "through" services. From memory, fifty or sixty years ago, there was far less fuss about people wandering about at minor stations, even on running lines, if you were daft enough to do it. We regularly walked along lines when taking photographs without anybody getting excited. We were really aware of the potential danger of course, and you could (generally) hear a steam engine from a distance (although not always of course). On the main lines of course we were chased away, quite rightly. Getting too close to an express is not recommended. Photos show two typical GWR/WR barrow crossings. The one with the DMU parcels is at Colnbrook, and was intended for passengers. The other at Hayes and Harlington was not intended for passengers. In the latter case there was a notice "Passengers are advised to use the footbridge when crossing the line".

I think we're all singing from the same hymn sheet, and are distinguishing between portholes and front windows. I've tagged a pic of a 56xx with one apparently open, I'll see if I can dig it out if I have time.

I'd always assumed they were there for a through draught rather than to see out of, as some pictures seem to show them slanting open.

They were the only time that we normally saw Dukedogs on the main line out of Paddington. Remember one double headed in the late fifties.

Thanks for all the replies: really helps a failing memory!

The only other scheduled service shown with identical formation (less van) is the 10.18 to Oxford. Mostly 3-car or 2x 3 car sets. I wonder how they worked out three car sets were optimal, as they were intended to replace the five coach Q sets (which carried on for another few months). Perhaps they compiled actual usage statistics (or perhaps not!)

In the 1960 version I have the 6.38, train number 2A52 as all stations to West Drayton & Yiewsley, connects to Uxbridge and Staines West: Single power car )) Drive end trailer )) West Drayton 3 car set )) K Van (Mails) ) Uxbridge K - attached at Paddington from Stop blocks. Would look very good in model form, but somebody would say it didn't happen!

Thank you very much for this. I couldn't understand why I had the date of 1958 in my head for Greenford, when I knew that the Class 121's weren't about until 1961. I hadn't realised that the 122's were used on that route, and can't remember seeing any either, although I may not have realised the difference at the age I then was. I can well remember travelling in the GWR railcars to Staines, but didn't take any pictures until the 121's arrived. The auto trains all disappeared in one go at Southall (they had their own servicing line the other side of the Brentford branch) except for the spare car for the Marlow branch, which was often just left in one of the goods sidings. (although why not at Slough, which was a lot nearer) I've no idea. The 117's worked to Uxbridge as well, although never, I think, to Staines. Picture below is from 1962, just before closure.

I've mislaid some notes I made some time ago about the actual, precise, dates when auto-trains last ran on the Greenford-Ealing service, and also for the Uxbridge and Staines Branches. Can anybody help me on this, or point me to reference sources? So far as I remember the Greenford line went straight from auto-trains to Class 121 units. Both Staines and Uxbridge were operated by a combination of GWR railcars and auto-trains. Towards the end of the 1950's the GWR railcars would operate mainly during the day, until about tea-time, when they then worked to Uxbridge (which didn't have an afternoon service.) Auto-trains then took over on the Staines line. They were all replaced so far as I remember by Class 121 units at the same time, and Southall presumably lost all it's auto-cars and GWR railcars at the same date.