Bon Accord

49 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

 

The RMT have been very critical of Irish ferries - and they are about to start a Dover - Calais service exclusively using cheap EU labour  too!

 

The French won't tolerate it - don't forget the right to strike (and blockade stuff) is enshrined in the French constitution so any similar attempts to ditch French workers don't tend to get very far...

Exactly the same thing that happened today happened with Irish Ferries in 2005.
In that case security staff (thugs) and replacement foreign crew came onboard disguised as passengers and when on passage attempted to take control of the ships - the Irish/British crews initially resisted by barricading themselves in the crew accommodations/engine room/bridge etc. and this led to something of a stand off.

The ships were also reflagged from Ireland to Cyprus.

With Irish Ferries that was purely a profit maximisation exercise, hence the heavy handed approach with no notice.

Of course considering the atmosphere of the time it was initially thought to be a terrorist attack by some.

Those with longer memories shall recall that BP also made all their seastaff redundant instantly - again with no warning - one day back in 1986, with the overwhelming majority of crews finding out about the situation due to it being the lead story on the BBC news that evening. All staff were then invited to reapply for their old jobs via offshore agencies, but with a 25% pay cut and no pension or benefits.

Charming people, shipowners.

2 hours ago, thegreenhowards said:

I stand corrected! But they would surely have had more modern livery like this

 

https://www.Bachmann.co.uk/product/br-vea-van-br-railfreight-red-and-grey/38-881

 

or at least the boxed in three letter code like this

 

https://www.Bachmann.co.uk/product/br-vea-van-br-bauxite-(tops)/38-880
 

 

Right upto the early 80s aside from the diesels and Mk1s being painted in corporate image colours the stock and infrastructure on the Far North and Kyle lines had changed very little for 20 years.

BR 16t mineral wagons and 12t vans - all in a dirty brown livery - were the order of the day freight wise. Stations still had their BR enamel totems and signage and nearly all the signal boxes were still open.

It was something of a time capsule.

36 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

It's a pity the're no Highland coaches in the Hattons generic range, and these engines would really have suited the LMS lined crimson lake livery.  I'll have to settle for HR green instead.  With a tablet catcher of course.

Some of the 6 wheelers in the Hattons and Hornby ranges are quite similar to the HR variety. The latter also has the benefit that plain unlined green is prototypical.

My preorder is already in! Well done Rapido.

I do have a rather ancient DJH example but in plain HR green, so no need to retire it just yet.

The third picture isn't Stirling but is Gleneagles.

The two mystery location pictures are Ladybank, just to the North of the junction and on the line to Perth.

26 minutes ago, 62613 said:

My first ship, in 1972, was m.v. British Liberty, one of a class of 6 ships built in the mid to late 60s, affectionately known as the Titty - boats; they were the immediate predecessors to the River class (as you well know). The regular chief reckoned that they were the last class built with a reinforced fo'c'sle, to mount a deck gun.

 

Did any of the ex- MN personnel in this thread ever get to attend what were known as "Defence Lectures", where someone from the MOD came in and gave a group of MN personnel a talk on what to do in the event of WW3 breaking out?According to most of us, when told of what the Soviet navy had, the best thing to do was put your head between your legs, and kiss your arse goodbye!

 

Way off topic now; is anyone bovvered?

 

I never did one back in the day, but about 15 years ago I was invited to attend a 5 day RN organised course in Portsmouth which was intended for MN deck officers.

It officially was an acquaintance/familiarisation course to see how the other half live so to speak, but it also included quite a few briefings and lectures about current threats, what to do when and how the RN might assist etc.

It was quite an interesting and at times fun week and culminated with a visit to those nice people at RM Poole to see their toys and also included a jolly down to Portland to take part in "Thursday War" aboard an RN frigate.

There were people there from the tanker companies and the likes of P&O, Trinity House etc.

Naturally it was also a very boozy week as we were billeted in the Officer's mess at HMS Collingwood.

During my time working for Andrew Weirs I did a trip in Hebridean Princess - for which they did the technical management - and to which I was loaned for a few weeks as they were short of bodies. That was a real riot and great fun on what was a lovely old ship, but of course her history is that when built in the early 60s her secondary role (beyond that of car ferry for MacBraynes) was to be a floating bunker/command centre on the West Coast of Scotland in the event of major unpleasantness with the Soviets.

Accordingly she and her two sisters were built like the proverbial brick outhouse and featured all sorts of onboard novelties like a full pre wetting system for the external decks, interior citadels, convoluted ventilation system to protect against fallout etc.

They were owned (and nominally paid for) by the Scottish Office rather than MacBraynes and so were initially registered in Leith rather than Glasgow to reflect the location of their real owners. Calmac ownership and a change of port of registry came some years later.

After that very pleasant jolly I was sent back to another rusty Bank boat, which ironically had originally been built for the Soviets with various other bells and whistles for use in the Arctic in time of war. Naturally Weirs ran them to the South Pacific!

6 minutes ago, MarkC said:

Nope - that's shipowners all over, with one or two honourable exceptions. Mercenary shysters...

As the old saying goes: you never meet a poor one!

7 minutes ago, JeremyC said:

Someone else might have mentioned this (and I've missed it) regarding Merchant Navy personnel, but until May 1941, merchant seamen sailing aboard British vessels attacked and sunk by enemy action received no pay (wages) from the moment that their ship sank. If the seaman was fortunate to survive the sinking only to spend days or weeks in an open lifeboat hoping for rescue, it was regarded as "non-working time", the seaman was not paid for that time because their employer, the shipping company who had owned the lost vessel, no longer required their services.

https://www.gatheringvoices.org.uk/post/ship-sinks-pay-stops-why-we-were-inspired...

That was finally sorted out but only for the duration of the war alas, postwar things technically reverted and companies weren't obliged to pay you should your ship be lost. 

The advent of company contracts and the general improvement in terms and conditions postwar thankfully superceeded that, but some outfits still stick to the letter of the law.

The loss of the Pool Fisher in 1979 being a case in point - all crew (dead or alive) were taken off pay from the day she sank and the relatives of those lost received nothing from the company beyond voyage pay upto the day of her loss.

28 minutes ago, alastairq said:

 

My first ship, MV British Hero, built Lithgows, 1954, scrapped in Spain, 1972.

 

On some of my subsequent ships, the 'ol' man' [master] had, in the ship's safe, sealed orders which were changed periodically. Known [unofficially] as DEMS orders. In times of emergency or conflict, these would be opened, and we would find ourselves,instead of being a humble civilian merchant vessel, we had become a part of the RFA.  This applied to most ships belonging to the BP Tanker Co Ltd, I believe?

One aspect of this was the insignia that the ship's officers & engineers [& Chief Steward, and RO] wore....Instead of the normal merchant navy insignias of the diamond loop, we had the round loop as per the Royal Navy. I was led to believe that this was due to becoming effectively, RFAs....and applied to many, [but not all?] UK based shipping lines. However, this was all a lot of years ago now, and my memory fades somewhat....

A large number of BP ships - together with a number of other companies which had vessels which could be regarded as strategic in wartime - were built with a Government subsidy in exchange for certain construction requirements to be met e.g. strengthened decks suitable for gun emplacements, degaussing gear fitted etc. A DEMS safe was also a standard fitting.

As I remember the Valour and the Courage had a different boiler/turbine setup to their sisters and accordingly could develop a lot more shp so that they could be used as fast fleet oilers. This apparently required an annual trial for the benefit of the MOD which basically amounted to a full speed run in excess of their normal service speed.

Later on, the 70's built River class 25k product tankers were designated to be suitable to be STUFT and quite a few of them did exercises with the RN/RFA to exercise their suitability to act as replenishment oilers. That led to modifications such as additional (higher) tank suctions being installed to permit the carriage of aviation fuel to be pumped over for immediate use, extra steel pads around strongpoints for RAS gear etc. This of course led to 8 of the class being taken up from trade and being sent south during the Falklands unpleasantness.

With regard to the braid, the official term for the loops was "executive curle" and BP and a few other companies had it. There were many stories circulating with regard to why it was used (and I'm sure it was the same in the likes of the other companies which used it) and the common one was that it was something to do with wartime service, which I was never inclined to believe as many companies and their men suffered dreadfully and I think it would be somewhat callous to single out a few.

Adoption of diamonds/curles etc was of course upto the company concerned and did not require any official sanction either way, but on that point it's worth remembering that most British companies used 3/8" braid rather than the RN standard of 1/2". Use of the latter braid in such a way that it could be confused for the RN variety was a criminal offence unless a warrant or an Order in Council from the Monarch was issued and that would of course be recorded somewhere. I've never seen or heard of such evidence for any company, even BPTC.

Some companies adopted curles for the prestige factor, but with BPTC I'm more inclined to believe that we had them because the company was effectively Government owned and it was normal for those ships/crews in government service to use Curles instead of diamonds.

6 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

Whereas the Union Castle Line's weekly sailings for Cape Town required a fleet of at least five liners, it would seem. But I suppose with less competition, they ran at the most economic speed. It seems odd that the two sailings for Wellington were only five days apart. However, reading up (Wikipedia) both were Shaw, Saville liners performing circumnavigations - taking in Sydney, Melbourne, Fiji, Tahiti, and Durban as well as Wellington and Auckland - but in opposite directions - Southern Cross going out via the Panama Canal and home via Durban, with Dominion Monarch going the other way. However, when my grandparents went to visit my aunt and her family in the North Island in 1969, my memory is that they sailed on the Southern Cross and went out via Durban, with six weeks in New Zealand - so that must have been the frequency of the sailings. But it seems likely that if they did go out via Durban my memory is wrong - I was only five at the time - then their ship was Northern Star, which had replaced the smaller Dominion Monarch. (In that schedule, Dominion Monarch only needed one boat train where Southern Cross warranted two.)

Union Castle had the contract for the mail to/from South Africa and retained it until 1977, the ships used on the "Cape Mail" were accordingly all 20+ knot fliers particularly the final trio of ships used: Windsor Castle, Transvaal Castle and Pendennis Castle.

The Cape Mail departed Southampton every Thursday at 4pm with a corresponding sailing northwards from Cape Town. Like many services of this type timetables were everything and delays were not tolerated.

As well as passengers, the liners of old also carried significant quantities of mail and cargo and it was the latter which dictated the turnaround times in ports, that included Queen Mary/Elizabeth and the other Cunard passengerships. Most of the old British passenger ship companies relied on a Royal Mail subsidy to cover operating costs in leaner periods - Cunard being a high profile example.

Dominion Monarch was a much bigger ship than Southern Cross but that was because she carried a huge amount of cargo - general/manufactured goods outward, refrigerated/frozen NZ foodstuffs homeward - and like a lot of the Shaw Savill ships she carried only first class passengers. Northern Star/Southern Cross was an attempt by SS&A to break into the second class market - or as it became known postwar, tourist class - which until then had been dominated by the New Zealand Shipping Co (part of the P&O empire) and also by lower cost ships specifically targeted at the emigrant market.

N.B. Many modern day cruise ships are erroneously referred to as Cruise Liners, but that is not technically correct as they are not engaged in what is known in the industry as a "liner trade". The latter is basically a fixed, timetabled service in which many otherwise competing companies often co-operate in much the same way as the airline alliances of today do so. Liners in that sense do still exist, but the modern day examples are container ships and Ro-Ro vessels.

The last real British passenger liner (and last real RMS) was RMS St Helena which lasted until 2018 on the St Helena/Ascension run, this of course being a government subsidised service initiated by the withdrawal of the last Union Castle mailships in the late 70s.

2 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

 

I would have thought the main gain re- the wearing of masks in classrooms  is not the pupils - its their teachers!

 

Just as you cannot staff a hospital without Doctors / Nurses / cleaners,. the same is true of schools and teachers.

 

Think of it like this - if an individual child comes down with Covid thats one person having their education disrupted / put on hold/.

 

If its a teacher then thats 33 children having their education disrupted / put on hold / forced to stay home (and thus potentially cause childcare issues). Which is going to be more disruptive overall...

 

 

Except that if one pupil has it then basically the entire class and teachers are in reality close contacts because the kids aren't giving a toss, with all the consequent disruption that causes.

My youngest cousin is a languages teacher at a secondary school and she was seeing entire yeargroups being wiped out every other week causing mayhem.

Teachers and ancillary staff were in despair because they had no choice but to run with it due to Government instructions/indifference.

In her school a number of older teachers simply gave up the job because they couldn't chance the (rampant) risk of infection due to their age/health, leaving the school further short staffed causing larger class sizes, more infections etc.

Standby for it all to be repeated over the next month or so.

11 hours ago, Hobby said:

Also the kids wearing masks in classes will reduce transmission meaning less kids off with it or isolating which equals less disturbed schooling so protecting their education, and, by default, them?

Except it will likely do little.

I know a few people who teach in primary and secondary schools and they all say exactly the same thing about their respective schools: whilst the kids may behave in class, in corridors/playground/out of sight of staff it's a total free for all and they're acting as if Covid has never happened, interacting and socialising accordingly with carefree abandon.

4 minutes ago, Legend said:

I’m hoping that Omicron has passed by then .  I really want to go , not missed a show since 1973, except for 2020 obviously , but I think the wise thing to do is make a decision closer to time , a luxury the organizers don’t have . I’m lost in all the rules at the moment but if the rules we currently have in Scotland are still in force then I think it can’t go ahead as the max indoors is 500? 
 

let’s hope this blasted virus has abated by Feb 

It's max 100 for indoor standing events with 1m distancing, so Model Rail will be a non starter if those rules are still in force.

2 hours ago, Legend said:

They’ll sell . It’ll probably be corrected in subsequent batches . 

The problem there is the next batch is probably 2-3 years away.

I was going to get the LNER version, but I won't now as the OTT valve gear, tyres and the aforementioned black mark have put me off entirely.

The running plate still doesn't sit quite right with me either - I can't quite put my finger on it, but it's far more obvious on the LNER versions than the BR black/green types.

I still have a 1995 Coldstreamer and 2000 Green Howards in LNER Doncaster and Darlington green respectively still running around like sewing machines after over two decades of use and I shall stick with them, particularly in the face of shelling out north of 200 notes for the new model.

Some years back I did buy the most recent BR version (double chimney with the new chassis) and although the boiler still needed put right as well as a few other details it was nearly there as mass produced models go. Unfortunately Bachmann seem to have taken a couple of steps forward and a couple back. Just a pity it's taken nearly 4 years to get here.

27 minutes ago, 62613 said:

I thought that before things became critical there was a salvage tug nearby who offered to take him in tow, but he refused; again because of salvage rules.

I believe the Master of the Tug initially offered Lloyds Open Form (as is standard) which unsurprisingly the Master of the Union Star refused as was his right, pending instructions/developments from ashore as he didn't believe he was in imminent danger; LOF can of course prove expensive depending on how much effort is adjudged to have been undertaken on the part of the salvor.

At that time the situation was not a "distress" incident, merely an "urgency" and it was up to the Union Star to escalate the situation.

The Coastguard now have the power to do that themselves.

3 hours ago, Penlan said:

I live in Mousehole, so as true as the above is, the owners can sell a Terraced Cottage (which probably needs money spending on it anyway) and buy a detached Cottage in Newlyn or Penzance etc., with plenty of garden, a drive and garage etc.,
There are other aspects to this as well, but that's down to the locals.
The main thing that came out of the disaster was a change in Maritime Law, in that a Lifeboat can now take in tow a Ship that is basically in trouble - The Coxswain can now over rule the Captain for the safety of the Ship..  The disaster basically happened (apart from the SE force 12 Gales, 50ft high waves etc.,) because the Captain of the 'Union Star' couldn't contact the Owner - who was at a Christmas Party - to get permission for the Lifeboat to tow the Ship to a safer place - All to do with Salvage rights.
Obviously there's a lot more to this, than stated above, but that's it basically.
All E.& O.E.

The Coxswain of the lifeboat doesn't have that authority, however the Coastguard themselves now do.

That change went in hand in hand with the Braer wreck/oil spill in Shetland and the subsequent establishment of Coastguard rescue tugs, stationed at strategic points around the UK coast. This was copied in many other countries with a high density of high risk shipping around their coasts e.g. France, Spain, Norway etc.

As well as emergency towing, these vessels were also fitted out for anti pollution work, seabed surveying and basic maritime patrolling.

Unfortunately in 2010 the incoming government of the day decided that those rescue tugs weren't needed because in their view commercial towage would be available if required, totally ignoring the point that the commercial aspect of it and the complications caused thereby was exactly what led to having the state operated tugs in the first place.

That was all to save a paltry £30 million.

As an example of the costs incurred due to a major oil spill, the most recent large scale event in the UK was the Sea Empress spill in Milford Haven in 1996 and that is estimated to have cost £120 million in both cleanup costs and damage to the local economy.

The French etc still maintain their tugs and they've since come to the rescue of vessels in the Channel when no towing vessels were available from the UK side.

The Scottish Government made the point that the NW of Scotland should be a special case in view of it's remoteness and that it should retain a tug. After much lobbying agreement was reached and funding made to MCA to continue to provide such a vessel, however it's on a series of short term contracts at the end of which is a review as to whether it should carry on, there is then usually another spat between London/Edinburgh. The result is that the current tug is Italian owned/flagged with Eastern European crew, whereas the previous incarnations were British owned/flagged/crewed.

I recently rediscovered on Youtube the BBC documentary made to mark the 25th anniversary in 2006. For those who haven't seen it, it's certainly worth a watch.

Brave men.

2 hours ago, GWR8700 said:

Apologies if this has been covered before, but was the dark prussian blue ever carried by Caledonian locomotives or is it merely a preserved phenomenon?

There were two shades of CR blue, light and dark as depicted on the models.

Both 828 and 439 have carried both in preservation. 828 is of course currently sporting the darker shade whilst 439 wears the lighter variety have previously been in the darker blue for most of it's preservation life.

Just noticed that certain examples are now available to pre-order via their Ebay webshop.

Link here: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/324938785435?hash=item4ba7dc629b:g:nA4AAOSwl4VhqnoZ

4 hours ago, Eddie the dog said:

Off topic, could I ask whether 812 dark blue has sand boxes/pipes please ?

The pics on here suggest not, while the photo’s on Rails website show them !

The three models of 828 lack the rear sandboxes abaft the centre driving wheel which is I believe prototypical for this particular engine through the ages.

They should be present on 57565 (weathered, early BR crest) as that engine did have them.

2 hours ago, Eddie the dog said:

Apologies if this has been covered , but as this is

’as preserved’ does this mean that the dark blue is also an authentic 

livery for when the loco was in service ?

The dark blue livery is authentic, but the model wearing it is not.

When carrying CR colours (either light or dark) there are a number of detail differences compared to the loco in later life, e.g. fewer lamp irons, different safety valves, lack of vacuum ejector/brake etc.

Hence how the dark CR liveried model as produced is only correct for the locomotive in it's preserved state.

You can see a few of those detail differences in the pictures posted above.

20 minutes ago, Jim Martin said:

I'm wondering because I took the Divine Mrs M to Wigan this morning, to put her on the 08:00 to Glasgow; and the preceding train (the 06:15 Birmingham-Edinburgh, due out of Wigan at 07:38) was held in the station until 07:54,  apparently while the police were summoned to remove someone who insisted on smoking their e-cigarette.

 

I can recall there being smoking compartments - maybe even whole carriages - on trains in my youth; and obviously there aren't any now; but I have no idea when the changeover occurred. Does anyone know?

 

Jim

It was a gradual transition over the decades with smoking compartments/areas being reduced and in turn eliminated.

As I remember the last operator to permit smoking onboard was Caledonian Sleeper (then part of ScotRail) and that carried on nearly until the smoking ban in public places circa 2004.

GNER still permitted smoking until around the same time, I think it was finally done away with upon the "Mallard" refurbishment programme. Coach B in standard was I think the smoking coach and about a third of coach M in First. The Mark 4s had a sort of compartment/gate setup for the smoking section in First.

2 hours ago, Mol_PMB said:

Many thanks John, I understand your description and that makes perfect sense for a smaller vessel with a relatively slow rate of loading so that you can safely have stevedores working on top of the growing stack of containers.

On the much bigger cellular ships (Ever Given etc) I do wonder if a different solution is used - just getting a supply of loose twistlocks to the top of the stack would be a logistical challenge.

 

Cheers,

Mol

Cellular ships don't use twistlocks within the cellguides, the boxes being simply stacked as you suggest slotting into the cells. Anything outside of a cell is locked together with twistlocks and doubled up with lashing bars.

Twistlocks are installed and locked by hand and a steel bin of them is usually lifted onto an adjacent stack with the wharfies getting up there by way of a man basket.

Spring loaded twistlocks are available which lock when another box lands on top and they can speed up the process.

Despite automation and modern kit, loading/unloading a box boat is still a labour intensive operation.

13 hours ago, Paul.Uni said:

The product pages for R3734 and R3735 currently state 'Expected Winter 2023'

Weren't they both 2019 announcements?