TheSignalEngineer

1 hour ago, kevinlms said:

But does that only really work, until you get to 9?

Madrid Metro has 12 numbered services on the map.

In 1961 the Southern had headcodes up to 99 on all three sections, plus use of 1-9 as well as 01-09 in some instances. I remember timetable posters on some stations having an explanation of the routes taken by each headcode  stopping there. 

No different to having bus numbers and people seem quite happy until you change one. Woe betide anyone changing the Birmingham Outer Circle which has carried the same number for 98 years.

8 hours ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

Another change to FPLs that I have used in real life is to use one lever where there are two points back to back working 'Flip-Flop' with one in and the other out. I don't know if the LB&SC ever did that but I will look at a few plans later

I found a sketch of Epsom Downs quoted as being 1920 with back to back FPLs worked by one lever. 

Sorry to be joining the game a bit late, but I was struck down by man-flu so not been feeling to brilliant.

I had seen the thread and most of my first thoughts regarding lie of points and which ones to double end have already been covered.

There are possibly probably four ends where FPLs  aren't strictly necessary, two in sidings and two trailing points in the Up Main which don't have a facing passenger move. Another change to FPLs that I have used in real life is to use one lever where there are two points back to back working 'Flip-Flop' with one in and the other out. I don't know if the LB&SC ever did that but I will look at a few plans later

Regarding numbering, although railways did use different systems even amongst their own boxes the usuasl system was points and sahunt signals in the middle, Down signals at one end and Up signals at the other. To get the proper direction which way round is the frame, trackside or back wall of the box? Trackside with the signalman working facing the track was the most common. That determines the numbering sequence and also how the box diagram would be orientated. From the layout thread I think the box was on the Pilot Siding side of the track.

Numbers would be arranged to cut down walking up and down the frame for a route, and to avoid the dreaded 'Pull-Between' where you have to pull 5 points then 3 points followed by 4 FPL.

Proper arrangement of the numbers can cut down the length of locking bars and also reduce the number of locking trays needed in the frame.

I will take another look at it later if you can answer the questions about orientation of the frame.

Although not a member I've been a regular visitor for the last 20 years. Last September the atmosphere wasn't the same. We haven't booked any accomodation this season and I think we will be looking at visiting elsewhere.

12 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

If it’s any consolation the funding for the re-branding is being provided by TfL from its own funds!

 

In other words NOBODY who lives outside theGLA area is spending any money on it

But the DfT has just given them £250 Million investment for 2024, paid for from our general taxation.

https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/250-million-government-funding-to-upgrade-londons-transport-system#:~:text=Ministers and Transport for London,to upgrade London's transport system.&text=I am pleased to be,Transport for London ( TfL ).

Back to the topic, the Underground lines that existed pre-1960s still carry names largely based on the originating company or one of the key points served.

Personally I thionk the Madrid Metro system is good as the services are numbered on the co;oured map. I remember visiting some years ago and found it very easy to navigate your way around. I still remember that the airport is at the end of Line 8.

@Nova Scotian Apologies for an inappropriate post, now amended.

1 hour ago, phil-b259 said:

Because some people cannot accept he is the democratically elected Mayor of London who has the right to Govern how he wishes and so resort to name calling because it satisfies their inner prejudices.

I have no problem with Mr Khan. I just don't like the present Local Government system which has too many layers leading to duplication of effort and buck passing. Where I live the road is the responsibility of the County, pavement is the Borough, lighting on the pavement is County. At our previous house the bus shelter on the pavement belonged to the Parish Council. We are about to have a Mayor inposed on us. The likely winner is currently leader of another Council which has no economic or cultural connections with our area.

1 hour ago, phil-b259 said:

It’s a fact that for centuries the naming of things in the U.K. has generally followed the pattern of honouring rich white men and I for one welcome names that upset the status quo.

I agree with you there. All who make a major contribution to our country deserve to be honoured regardless of backround.

9 hours ago, Welly said:

I vaguely recall that during the 1980s the name "Harlequin Line" was being applied to that line by NSE?

It was named in a local competition with a small prize. It was at the time when we were doing the resignalling so 1988.

Could have saved TfL a bit of cash. Would have given plenty of suggestions to pick from, possibly even some appropriate and not too politically incorrect. Get the secretary to pick the winners and dish out half a dozen free one month Oyster cards. Job done.

Another 'money saving' method on ballast cleaning jobs in the 1970s and 1980s was 'Spoil to Bank' where the conveyor of the machine was angled to throw the muck about ten feet from the track instead of into wagons to the tip. Within about six months it had started to migrate down the bank burying cable routes, piling up against location case doors and clogging drains. 

20 minutes ago, melmerby said:

I'm not so sure that even 30 yrears ago there would've been suitable resources for diversions onto a non electric route.

 

Maybe there should be a fleet of Black 5s and Mk1 stock on stand by?😄

Thirty years ago I used to watch regular  Nuneaton Drags from my office in the Rotunda.  A few Saltley men with a 47, 56 or 58 each was all you needed.

16 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

To be fair given the awful state of many of our trunk roads I don’t think they are in that better position.

 

What both suffer from is an over abundance  of management drones churning out pretty brochures and webpages or buying fancy IT kit is a good substitute for proper maintenance.

 

Of course that suits HM Treasury just fine…

The last big slip on the Snake Pass happened 2 years ago. Plenty of surveys and reports done but no action yet. It's estimated to need £4 million to do the piling to hold it up at the Alport Bridge slip alone. All they have done in the past is put more tarmac on to level it up. They should have had a trip to the other side of the hill, as that's exactly th solution they used for years on Mam Tor until it was abandoned.

On 31/01/2024 at 19:01, The Stationmaster said:

The only time I went on mystery excursions was if I knew where they were going (yes - inside information, easy when I worked in an office which arranged them).  And equally I'm with you when it comes to buying slow moving or surplus items look to see what's being advertised or search them out.   

Likewise. I used to see STNs covering everything within about 100 miles of where I lived so could work out the likely destination even if it started on a strange route. Although the sheet I originally got sometimes just described it as "Mystex to SR" few calls to friends on other areas soon got the answer.

The last of those liveries to be introduced was Mainline in October 1994, so that would fix the date to a small window before privatisation liveries started to arrive after 1996. 

Swallow livery on XC lasted until about 2000.

30 minutes ago, Benatkinsonuk said:

1. Modelling a fairly central fictional location with some inspiration from the south west. This point isn’t too detailed in my plan. 

So probably on the edge of a medium size town somewhere in the southern half of England. Big enough to retain the railway post-Beeching but far enough out to be the end of the line or possibly a truncated through route like Stratford-upon-Avon. Had a branch from the station to the town centre like Stourbridge or to an industrial site.

38 minutes ago, Benatkinsonuk said:

2. Mid / late 90’s - from 1994-1999

3. I’ve a HST, class 37, class 47 for loco hauled stuff and parcels and 2x DMUs (155&158) and a class 08 to act as station pilot (which were fairly rare in my time period (?) but I’ll enjoy the operational interest)

• A bit of a chaotic time, birth of privatisation. Parcels traffic had largely died by the late 1990s.  Are you liveries early  your liveries privatisation era with a hangover from Sectorisation?
• 08s were still found at odd places around the system at that time. About 300 survived to the end of BR. Perhaps the branch could have a location where there was a special freight traiifc which was carried by rail.
• At Oldbury in the Black Country we had Albright & Wilson who had a factory making, amongst other nasties, the phosphorous ingredient for matches. They had a regular delivery of Chlorine in rail tankers until 1995. IIRC they had a ferry van at each end as a barrier wagon.
• In the same era we had trip workings at Langley Green about three times per week of a few cement tanks from Earles Sidings at Hope to the depot at Queens Head in Handsworth.
• There were also POA wagons to the scrapyard at Handsworth at that time, inwards empty and outwards full of scrap to a steelworks.

1 hour ago, Benatkinsonuk said:

4. Coloured light but anything to help give me a bit of realism really. The branch line will loosely be based on St Ives, I thought I could even include some old signals here but maybe that’s not necessary.

Around your era we were looking at resignalling stations at the end of lines and filling gaps that had escaped resignalling when Power Boxes were being built. Old fringe boxes were becoming life expired so work was needed to get rid of them.

On the track layout I can't say how logical it would be without knowing the moves and distances involved but you need some trap points in the sidings and run round.

As already said all platforms would have a 3-aspect R/Y/G with theatre indicator and cats eyes usually with a minaure indicator for sidings or shunt moes from them. The exit from the run round wound probably be a position light ground signal and from the siding a position light or ground mounted three aspect depending on the location of the next signal.

Incoming the signals would be 2-aspect R/Y with a theatre indicator if they could read to more than one platform  and cats eyes for shuntng into an occupied platform or going into sidings.

If the signalling was installed pre-1990 a relay room would be put somewhere in the area, probably a portable building style. If later it would be SSI with most of the equipment in location cases but in a busy area like the platform ends a small equipent building could be provided.

My first questions on any topic like this are 

1) Where is it?

2) What time period, e.g. 1970-75?

3) What type of trains and service pattern?

4) Type of signalling. You already appear to be colour light, but would that be appropriate for the time and place?

Knowing those things make the discussion much easier.

3 hours ago, Cwmtwrch said:

a photo caption states that the Bluebell rebuilt it, so it doesn't help much.

Judging by a photo dated 2010 the ironwork is probobly the only bit of the original left. Most of the timber looked rotten.

On 09/02/2024 at 15:14, Cwmtwrch said:

 So, two conversions in error or an indication that all BR ordered vans were converted [or all post-war vans]?

The one at the Bluebell is interesting. An LMS van complete with LMS plate but no casing or steam pipe in a photo there (on Flickr IIRC) dated 1970. Unfortunately in that photo it has been painted all over in a light colour. I wonder if it had a yellow spot under that coat?

7 hours ago, Cwmtwrch said:

There doesn't seem to be quite enough evidence to definitely link all these different shots to the same train, nor to link partials in one shot to complete views in another, but it's an interesting collection.

I did wonder if Salisbury could have been used as a holding point for empties from thr south of England. A convenient place for sending extra wagons to Southampton or Avonmouth depending on what was docking.

Pity no-one seems to have taken a photo without a loco there.

The one poking out to the right of 30824 is a 1/244 with BR clasp brakes and final strapping arrangement

https://www.rail-online.co.uk/p1019661472/ea35612e9

Looks as if studying the background of a few photos could be fruitful. 😆

44 minutes ago, Simon60 said:

Are the Mainline/Bachmann models of period II correct at 57’?

The Mainline P1 are a bit crude having moulded on roof vents and gangway ends. One also has an error in the width of the right hand end compartment window but I can't remember which. The underframe is also basic and looks better with the dynamo and vacuum cylinder replaced. 

The Replica and Bachmann ones have individual vents and gangway connections, bit still the same underframe and window error. These are a Brake Composite and All Third that I made with a cut 'n' shut using three Replica bodies.

I think that the Airfix, later Mainline then Dapol 60ft version is a better starting point for a P3 Composite.

1 hour ago, Darius43 said:

Thread drift now on to MOD procurement via legendary locomotive crews.

 

Any “new” news on the original subject before the thread inevitably drifts to the price of RTR models or Taylor Swift or both?
 

Cheers

 

Darius

Just chatting to pass the time until next Saturday's railtour. Manchester Piccadilly to Carlisle and back via Shap and Ribblehead.

Loco change 17:54 to 18:36 in Platform 6 at Preston on the return. Lightning won't strike twice, will it?

Expecting Open Train Times map to lock up due to amount of internet traffic.

9 hours ago, Bucoops said:

Only to have anything we had to hand thrown at him for selling something that wasn't even remotely possible, let alone part of the R&D phase. We were all for pushing the boundaries but they just took the p*** far too often.

Sounds a bit like West Coast Route Modernisation. They promised Beardy that ERTMS cab signalling for Moving Block with up to 140mph running on WCML would be in use by 2005. I even went to a suppliers briefing meeting where it was talked about. Our opinion and that of our competitors was with unlimited cash immediately and no political hinderance that was at least 10 years too soon.

The only sensible words we got all day was the declaration that lunch was ready.

On 03/02/2024 at 11:14, The Stationmaster said:

there was regular train of loco coal empties from the West of England to Soith wales (usually Rogerstone but at  times if might have run to Pontypool Road.

I don't know about the early years but by 1948 there were two paths for Class H trains from Rogerstone for Banbury calling at Stratford and Leamington for 30 - 60 minutes. I can't find any return path but suspect it could have been the Yarnton to Rogerstone which went via Honeybourne and Cheltenham.

4 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

That was one of the main reasons for the Western moving to 'route norms' in order to ensure that Drivers achieved a set frequency working over every route they signed or attending necessary refreshers or having route refresher days in their link.

In the days before it closed to steam I remember a relative of mine at Monument Lane having a varied roster over a number of weeks. He was virtually top of the 1A Link seniority. His main turns were to London and Manchester via Crewe but also did some runs through Stoke, to Stafford via Walsall and Rugeley and trains booked via Northampton. Every so often he did a 'Rest Week' on one of the local trips which entailed going through all of the connections only done by passenger trains during Single Line Working and also took occasional turns on weekend specials and engineering work. They didn't book on for the same turn more than five consecutive days and had about 15 different duty schedules.

1B Link used to do mainly Crewe and Liverpool but also had turns to Euston including via Northampton on the parcels, to Lichfield, Walsall and Burton over the South Staffs. They also had a turn to Leamington which returned via the Kenilworth to Berkswell line.

After most of the passenger turns from the local sheds were transferred to New Street in 1967 the men were rostered over a period of IIRC 8 weeks. During that time they would travel most of the routes from the station and use different traction.  

There's a photo on the HMRS site of X9 no. W105815 in BR livery in use for carrying bananas. Note the Jamaica Red Label logo pasted on.

https://hmrs.org.uk/-aep804--8t-insul-meat-br-w105815---part-e82652-in-use-as-banana-vans-f3r.html

I'm wondering if this MICA at Snow Hill in 1962 could be a TEVAN conversion.

https://warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrbsh2562.htm