Simplex locos, Ex-GWR

[Wagonmaster]

I have been trying to research into some of the ex-GWR Simplex (Motor Rail) locos. Specifically the 20/28hp plate frame versions that ended up with BR and allocated numbers in the PWM series. Some of these worked at Hayes Sleeper Depot amongst other places.

 

Does anyone have any photographs of these locos at all? Any information such as livery or if the numbers were carried and where would be very useful.

 

I am assuming they are a standard 20/28hp product without any modifications or additions, such as cabs. I have a OO9 gauge 20/28hp in primer with the intention of finishing it off as one of these PWM locos.

 

Any help gratefully appreciated.

[The Stationmaster]

According to the RCTS history (Part 11) the standard gauge locos were GWR numbers 15 (1923), 23 (1925, 24 (1926), 26 (1927, and 27 (1926). No.15 had totally open sides to the 'cab' while the others had cab doors on the lower half of the cab sides with the upper section open although all seem to have had some sort of canvas side screens.   The numbers I have quoted were given to them as follows - No.15, as originally delivered to the GWR with its number carried on a cast plate.  The others were allocated the numbers I have shown in November 1932 and all had painted numbers.  

 

The RCTS history was published in 1952 and doesn't mention any PWM numbers although they might well have been added in the 2nd edition (I only have the 1st edition of Part 11).  interestingly teh amendments/addenda in part 13 published in 1983 does refer to PWM numbers in respect of the disposal of some of them but doesn't link it to the original numbers so it looks as if the 2nd edition of part 11 might be the most useful.

 

The two 2ft gauge engines of 1930, numbers 22 & 25, had no bodywork to speak of.  Reportedly there were a further two 2ft gauge engines owned by the Engineer's Dept - simplex Works Nos 7139/1936 and 7177/1937.  If any of the n.g. engines went to Hayes i suspect that it would most likely have been one or other of this pair although the 1914 OS map shows all the track at Hayes sleeper creosoting depot as standard gauge so maybe one of the s.g. engines was there although this isn't mentioned in the RCTS history (memory suggest to me that the track in the creosoting tubes was n.g. but I only ever saw it from a passing trai)..  The RCTS history has no photos of the 2ft gauge engines.

 

Hope this helps a bit

[Wagonmaster]

Thanks for your reply Mike. I can flesh this out a bit with the following.

 

22 became PWM1780 and 25 became PWM1779. Works numbers would indicate a 20hp loco.

 

W/N 7139 became PWM1622 and w/n 7177 became PWM1650. Works numbers indicate a 20/28hp plate frame type.

 

Your RCTS references would seem to confirm standard unmodified locomotives. Pity they don't mention any livery details. I'm guessing they were carrying the same green paint they left Bedford in. Not sure if they actually carried any numbers? Photographs would be very useful!

 

Incidentally, there was another PWM loco, PWM1024. This was an 18in. gauge Lister (Rail Truck?).  This also reported as being at Hayes for a while.

 

Any more info most welcome.

[Mike_Walker]

Here's No.26 at the end of its day put out to grass at Swindon in 1960.  Appears to be green but bears no markings. 

 

Colour-rail DE1261

[Wagonmaster]

Thanks for that Mike, but I was really  on about the 2ft. gauge Motor Rails.

 

However, interesting photo of No.26. It does look a bit green. I always thought they were black. Are we sure it's not a faded black? Some of these carried cast brass number plates and it could have been already removed.

[bécasse]

Interesting that colour photo of no.26. It certainly does look green, note the contrast between the chassis (definitely black) and the body work, but I too had thought that the normal BR colour scheme for them was black all over (except for a red buffer beam). I note, though, that it doesn't bear a BR insignia and that makes me wonder whether it was in GWR green.

[Mike_Walker]

Well they probably wouldn't have been high on the priority list for repainting.

[The Stationmaster]

2 hours ago, Wagonmaster said:

Thanks for your reply Mike. I can flesh this out a bit with the following.

 

22 became PWM1780 and 25 became PWM1779. Works numbers would indicate a 20hp loco.

 

W/N 7139 became PWM1622 and w/n 7177 became PWM1650. Works numbers indicate a 20/28hp plate frame type.

 

Your RCTS references would seem to confirm standard unmodified locomotives. Pity they don't mention any livery details. I'm guessing they were carrying the same green paint they left Bedford in. Not sure if they actually carried any numbers? Photographs would be very useful!

 

Incidentally, there was another PWM loco, PWM1024. This was an 18in. gauge Lister (Rail Truck?).  This also reported as being at Hayes for a while.

 

Any more info most welcome.

Do you have a drawing of them by any chance?

[Wagonmaster]

I might have drawings. If I do it will be the ones in the history of Motor Rail book. They will be of standard factory spec. locos. I can have a look later.

 

Another Motor Rail I didn't mention was No.14. This was bought by the GWR sometime before 1921. It didn't last long with them before it disappeared. It doesn't appear on the Simplex Works list, so it's thought to be an ex-WDLR bow frame type. No details for what or where it was used, or where it went to.

[Wagonmaster]

A bit more on No.26. It was built in 1927 as Lot No.250 works number 4178. It was allocated to Didcot Provender Stores.

 

My notes suggest only No.15 had the cast brass number plate. The others had painted numbers.

[The Stationmaster]

25 minutes ago, Wagonmaster said:

A bit more on No.26. It was built in 1927 as Lot No.250 works number 4178. It was allocated to Didcot Provender Stores.

 

My notes suggest only No.15 had the cast brass number plate. The others had painted numbers.

That agrees with the RCTS information.

 

The RCTS history has a side elevation drawing of a 2 foot gauge machine although how accurate it is, or isn't, I don't know.

[Wagonmaster]

4 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

That agrees with the RCTS information.

 

The RCTS history has a side elevation drawing of a 2 foot gauge machine although how accurate it is, or isn't, I don't know.

Good! It seems that our various sources agree. I have sent you a PM

[Marshall5]

I built one from the 7mm scale Impetus kit many years ago.  I painted mine in black with the smallest size of 'cycling lion' crest as per the instructions.  I also purchased a colour slide from ColourRail (DE516) which confirmed this livery. Unfortunately it also showed that these locos had acquired a few modifications from the standard Simplex over the years viz: self- contained wagon type buffers and an inverted Y of angle iron to support a lamp bracket each end.  The photo below shows that I didn't bother with these modifications!

I've just had a look at the Impetus instructions and, whilst there are exploded diagrams, there isn't a drawing as such. Hope this helps.

Ray.

Edit: Further photo here https://thetransportlibrary.co.uk/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=127783&page=4065

Edited April 1, 2022 by Marshall5
additional info

[Wagonmaster]

12 minutes ago, Marshall5 said:

I built one from the 7mm scale Impetus kit many years ago.  I painted mine in black with the smallest size of 'cycling lion' crest as per the instructions.  I also purchased a colour slide from ColourRail (DE516) which confirmed this livery. Unfortunately it also showed that these locos had acquired a few modifications from the standard Simplex over the years viz: self- contained wagon type buffers and an inverted Y of angle iron to support a lamp bracket each end.  The photo below shows that I didn't bother with these modifications!

I've just had a look at the Impetus instructions and, whilst there are exploded diagrams, there isn't a drawing as such. Hope this helps.

Ray.

 

Thanks for the photograph and informative comments. Nice model by the way! Impetus also did  4mm versions too, but sadly they had stopped before I was able to buy one. I was sort of hoping some budding 3D CAD designer might do a 3D print of one at some stage.

 

[Wagonmaster]

It's great to get such a response to my request, but I think we have digressed a bit. I was really looking for information on the 2ft. narrow gauge Motor Rails the GWR bought that ultimately ended up with BR and allocated PWM numbers.  A few text references to them, but as yet I haven't come across any photographs of them or any livery details. It is really this that I am after to help me finish off a model I have.

[Nearholmer]

Did the GWR have a colour for “plant and machinery” in general, a colour that was used for anything and everything overhauled in the p&m workshop, wherever that was? Because, if they did, I’d wager that was the colour used at overhaul.

 

A review of what few GWR period colour photos exist, looking for incidental bits of engineer’s p&m, things like mobile cranes, compressors, generators etc, might yield clues.

 

 

 

 

Edited April 2, 2022 by Nearholmer

[bécasse]

11 hours ago, Marshall5 said:

I built one from the 7mm scale Impetus kit many years ago.  I painted mine in black with the smallest size of 'cycling lion' crest as per the instructions.  I also purchased a colour slide from ColourRail (DE516) which confirmed this livery. Unfortunately it also showed that these locos had acquired a few modifications from the standard Simplex over the years viz: self- contained wagon type buffers and an inverted Y of angle iron to support a lamp bracket each end.  The photo below shows that I didn't bother with these modifications!

I've just had a look at the Impetus instructions and, whilst there are exploded diagrams, there isn't a drawing as such. Hope this helps.

Ray.

Edit: Further photo here https://thetransportlibrary.co.uk/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=127783&page=4065

Nice model. I have one with an almost complete interior too ........ and the size of the end castings reduced to their correct size. I discovered subsequently that (at least some of) these GWR locos had a second fuel tank added, mounted offset under the end bonnet at the driver's right hand (so at the opposite end and with an orthogonal orientation to the standard fuel tank), which I have yet to add - hence "almost complete interior".

[The Stationmaster]

15 hours ago, Wagonmaster said:

Good! It seems that our various sources agree. I have sent you a PM

Yes - saw it last night and will reply later today with the requested item (which isn't as explanatory as the item you sent)

[Wagonmaster]

15 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

Did the GWR have a colour for “plant and machinery” in general, a colour that was used for anything and everything overhauled in the p&m workshop, wherever that was? Because, if they did, I’d wager that was the colour used at overhaul.

 

A review of what few GWR period colour photos exist, looking for incidental bits of engineer’s p&m, things like mobile cranes, compressors, generators etc, might yield clues.

 

 

 

 

Good point. A standard p&m colour might have been used, however I'm in the British Railways period. I don't know if that would make difference? The Ruston PWM650 series was in BR Green.

 

I would still tend to think they would have been in the colour Motor Rail painted them, but would really like some confirmation on that. ED10, also on the workbench, was in Ruston lined green for instance.

 

 

[Nearholmer]

Yes, my unstated assumption was that all p&m, 2ft gauge locos included, would be in makers’ standard paint until/unless repainted after overhaul.

 

When I was into these things, I always used to paint anything made from metal about which I was unsure of colour in middle chrome green, because for much of C20th it was such a widely used colour for static metalwork and machinery, I think because it was the cheapest light-fast, hardwearing pigment. It was even used for woodwork indoors and out, presumably for the same reason. A utility colour.

 

Under BR, I reckon the livery might have depended upon what a 2ft gauge loco was classified as, p&m or locomotive. The only pictures I’ve seen of BR owned 2ft gauge ‘p&m’ type railways (and monorails too, of which there were a good few) have been in black and white, so locos ‘mid grey’, and the only ones I can remember were contractor owned, like that used when the tunnel at Southampton Central was re-lined, that particular one having white-painted locos IIRC.

 

Werry nice avatar BTW. That is a livery where corporate colours work to camouflage locos in their working environment, rather than do the usual and highlight them as hazards! 

[Wagonmaster]

10 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

Yes, my unstated assumption was that all p&m, 2ft gauge locos included, would be in makers’ standard paint until/unless repainted after overhaul.

 

When I was into these things, I always used to paint anything made from metal about which I was unsure of colour in middle chrome green, because for much of C20th it was such a widely used colour for static metalwork and machinery, I think because it was the cheapest light-fast, hardwearing pigment. It was even used for woodwork indoors and out, presumably for the same reason. A utility colour.

 

Under BR, I reckon the livery might have depended upon what a 2ft gauge loco was classified as, p&m or locomotive. The only pictures I’ve seen of BR owned 2ft gauge ‘p&m’ type railways (and monorails too, of which there were a good few) have been in black and white, so locos ‘mid grey’, and the only ones I can remember were contractor owned, like that used when the tunnel at Southampton Central was re-lined, that particular one having white-painted locos IIRC.

 

Werry nice avatar BTW. That is a livery where corporate colours work to camouflage locos in their working environment, rather than do the usual and highlight them as hazards! 

That was my reasoning too.  If any new information comes to light, I guess I can always repaint it! The only ones I know where different were the two Rustons at Chesterton Junction, which were yellow.

 

I suppose if these Simplex PWM's were at Hayes, they might have looked a bit dark brown/black after being near creosote. The only other thing I wasn't sure about was if there were any modifications to the buffing gear as per other creosote works locos? 

 

Glad you like the avatar.  One of my favourite industrials and have spent many a happy hour riding in them around the bogs!

Edited April 3, 2022 by Wagonmaster

[Nearholmer]

8 hours ago, Wagonmaster said:

One of my favourite industrials and have spent many a happy hour riding in them around the bogs!

Likewise.

[Ruston]

On 31/03/2022 at 15:52, Wagonmaster said:

I have been trying to research into some of the ex-GWR Simplex (Motor Rail) locos. Specifically the 20/28hp plate frame versions that ended up with BR and allocated numbers in the PWM series. Some of these worked at Hayes Sleeper Depot amongst other places.

 

Does anyone have any photographs of these locos at all? Any information such as livery or if the numbers were carried and where would be very useful.

 

I am assuming they are a standard 20/28hp product without any modifications or additions, such as cabs. I have a OO9 gauge 20/28hp in primer with the intention of finishing it off as one of these PWM locos.

 

Any help gratefully appreciated.

Do you have the works numbers or even the year of build?

[Ruston]

On 01/04/2022 at 13:08, The Stationmaster said:

The two 2ft gauge engines of 1930, numbers 22 & 25, had no bodywork to speak of.

These would have been 20HP with the straight channel frame and Dorman 2JO petrol engines. For GWR Stores Dept. Swindon.

 

W/n 5031 despatched 14/1/30 to GWR Engineer's Dept, Banbury.

W/n 5074 despatched 3/5/30 to H.S.B Whitley, Engineering Dept. St. Austell via Oxford GWR.

[Wagonmaster]

5 hours ago, Ruston said:

These would have been 20HP with the straight channel frame and Dorman 2JO petrol engines. For GWR Stores Dept. Swindon.

 

W/n 5031 despatched 14/1/30 to GWR Engineer's Dept, Banbury.

W/n 5074 despatched 3/5/30 to H.S.B Whitley, Engineering Dept. St. Austell via Oxford GWR.

Thanks for that Ruston. These two had the BR numbers PWM1779 and PWM1780 later in their career. I'm more interested in their BR career as that way I could use them on my layout. What I'm trying to find out is are there any photographs of these locos? Also what livery did they have and did they actually carry the numbers?

 

These 2ft. gauge departmentals seem particularly elusive!