CASTLE ROCK SIGNALLING

[davetheroad]

I have almost finished the baseboards for Castle Rock (the 10 foot trainset) which will be set up in the conservatory. I have the track and trackplan but of course need to design the signalling etc before track laying commences. So I need some advice on placement and type of signals, ground signals etc etc, plus some advice on the number of lineside boxes I need. Then I can install the cable ducts and concrete trunking before ballasting starts.

 

The layout is inspired by the WCML in Cumbria with a touch of Lancashire. Modern image with I presume 4 aspect main signals and probably a 40-50 mph speed restriction through the station.

 

Lets see if placing a image works.

[davetheroad]

Great, the image loaded properly so here is the south end of the station.

[csvt2004]

Perhaps you could give a bit more information?

 

What scale are you working in?

 

Modern Image, but when exactly? Older installations use a lot of lineside cabinets but in more recent times a Portable Equipment room may be used.

 

At first glance I have to question the wisdom of having a curved scissors crossover inside a tunnel!

 

What method of point operation are you going to use?

 

Regards

Richard Binns

[davetheroad]

Perhaps you could give a bit more information?

 

What scale are you working in?

 

Modern Image, but when exactly? Older installations use a lot of lineside cabinets but in more recent times a Portable Equipment room may be used.

 

At first glance I have to question the wisdom of having a curved scissors crossover inside a tunnel!

 

What method of point operation are you going to use?

 

Regards

Richard Binns

 

N scale

 

early 21st century to present, say 2000 to 2005

 

Sorry, I should have been clearer, none of the points in the tunnels are physically present and are just representative of pointwork beyond the tunnels to show what movements might be possible. The tunnels are the scenic breaks on the layout and the track in them curves round into the fiddle yard. The track at the north end dives under Castle rock itself with a castle on it of course. At the south end a large supermaket chain has come to a deal and covered the tracks and contributed to the station refurbishment.

 

I am not really happy about the on layout scissors crossing but with only just over 10 feet available it is the only way to allow movements to/from the platforms and I justify it by saying the station was always on a very restricted site. The trailing crossover between the up/down lines just can't be squeezed in. An extra 2 feet of width would make all the difference. Maybe this will happen one day if I get to use the garage. Actually there is a stage 2 plan to do this, one day!

 

The points are electrically operated but I do not need working lights on the signals.

 

I think I need 8 main signals, 2 x 4 aspect for the main up and down lines and 3 aspect for the rest of the platforms. As for ground signals etc I am completely ignorant.

 

The platforms are actually long enough to have the AWS and TPWS magnets and grids in the correct positions.

 

Imagine Castle rock as Penrith on steroids or a very emaciated Carlisle with a touch of Lancaster. Lines are:

WCML - platforms 1, 3, and 4, bi directional platforms

Scotch branch - normally platform 1

The Waverly - platforms 1, 3 and 4

Coast branch - platform 2 bay

Fells branch - platform 5 bay

 

A typical train movement might be a 'Scotch' DMU leaving the sidings onto the northbound branch and reversing into platform 1 before departing for northern climes!. The reverse movement would be common as well to clear platform 1 unless the train continued onto the fells branch.

[csvt2004]

Well I would consider using two relay rooms, sometimes refered to as a PER or REB. Just a portacabin really with no windows. Relays can get hot and so some relay rooms have air-conditioning.

I would place one at each end of the station. Then basically there will be a cable from the relay room to each piece of signalling equipment and that will dictate where the cable troughing/pipes need to go. At some locations on a crossover where there are two point machines, a cable will run from one machine to the other directly. But at other locations the cable runs via the relay room. That uses more cable but makes testing under fault conditions much easier for the S&T techs.

The protecting signals on the Up main and Down main are unlikely to be just on the exit of a tunnel and I would suggest they are modelled "off scene". Drivers need to know where they are going, so where there is a choice of routes from the bay to main or bay to branch, then that signal may have a theatre style indicator which could show say a letter M for main and a letter B for branch.

 

Perhaps you could draw on your diagram where you think the signals ought to go (and give them numbers)and then I could make further comments?

 

Sounds like an interesting project. Are you going to fit overhead catenery?

 

Regards

Richard Binns

[davetheroad]

Well I would consider using two relay rooms, sometimes refered to as a PER or REB. Just a portacabin really with no windows. Relays can get hot and so some relay rooms have air-conditioning.

I would place one at each end of the station. Then basically there will be a cable from the relay room to each piece of signalling equipment and that will dictate where the cable troughing/pipes need to go. At some locations on a crossover where there are two point machines, a cable will run from one machine to the other directly. But at other locations the cable runs via the relay room. That uses more cable but makes testing under fault conditions much easier for the S&T techs.

The protecting signals on the Up main and Down main are unlikely to be just on the exit of a tunnel and I would suggest they are modelled "off scene". Drivers need to know where they are going, so where there is a choice of routes from the bay to main or bay to branch, then that signal may have a theatre style indicator which could show say a letter M for main and a letter B for branch.

 

Perhaps you could draw on your diagram where you think the signals ought to go (and give them numbers)and then I could make further comments?

 

Sounds like an interesting project. Are you going to fit overhead catenery?

 

Regards

Richard Binns

 

Is this a relay room at the south end of Penrith station?

 

I wonder what this little hut at the up main platform is for?

 

still cabinets at the north end

 

This is at the north end of Carlisle on a bay platform, is it a theatre indicator?

 

This is at the north end of Penrith main down platform

 

Here are the modified diagrams

 

 

Yes, I am going to fit catenery to the main lines and platform 1. I can't remember if it is normal practice to have catenery on freight loops but as the branch/relief line extends some distance each end of the station it might be a option.

 

Thanks very much for any advice and suggestions

 

Dave

 

ps why Castle Rocks location? born and raised in Carlisle!

[beast66606]

Lancaster is controlled by Preston PSB, commissioned during 1972 but the Carlisle structures are the same, Carlisle was also commissioned in 1972.

 

I would lose the scissors at the South and convert it to two crossovers, with the lead to platform one being a double slip viz

 

 

The little hut is a secure store btw.

 

I can take a look at the signalling for you but others are assisting so I didn't want to dive in.

[beast66606]

Is this a relay room at the south end of Penrith station?

 

Yes, part of the Carlisle resignalling in 1972

 

I wonder what this little hut at the up main platform is for?

 

Storage of bits and bobs ! - eg point handles, lamps, etc.

 

This is at the north end of Carlisle on a bay platform, is it a theatre indicator?

 

No - it's a stencil.

 

Yes, I am going to fit catenery to the main lines and platform 1. I can't remember if it is normal practice to have catenery on freight loops but as the branch/relief line extends some distance each end of the station it might be a option.

 

Depends on traffic requirements, if electric traction was required then the loops would be wired, if not then no.

 

hth

[davetheroad]

Lancaster is controlled by Preston PSB, commissioned during 1972 but the Carlisle structures are the same, Carlisle was also commissioned in 1972.

 

I would lose the scissors at the South and convert it to two crossovers, with the lead to platform one being a double slip viz

 

 

The little hut is a secure store btw.

 

I can take a look at the signalling for you but others are assisting so I didn't want to dive in.

There is just not the room to have a better point layout. I would like to have a point ladder but without extra space just can't manage it. So the double crossover has to stay. Over the years I have acquired a considerable amount of Kato Unitrak and this is what I will be using, after all, it is a train set and if painted and ballasted the track looks OK. Kato don't do double slips or curved points anyway. For the scenic section I am using large radius points (718mm)which means each crossover occupies 320mm The entrance to the south tunnel on the branch is immediately to the left of the scissors crossover.

 

The more that comment the better as I need to design the cable runs etc etc before track laying. I 'pre-ballast' the track and need to know the locations of the orange pipes and concrete troughs before the final on layout ballasting.

 

Thanks

Dave

[csvt2004]

If you are being ultra-modern, then orange pipe has been outlawed. Hollow sleepers seem to be in favour at the moment for cable runs. Some cables are clipped to the top of sleepers as in this picture, the trunking can be seen to the left.

[davetheroad]

If you are being ultra-modern, then orange pipe has been outlawed. Hollow sleepers seem to be in favour at the moment for cable runs. Some cables are clipped to the top of sleepers as in this picture, the trunking can be seen to the left.

I will stick with the orange pipe as I quite like the colour!. Plus it livens up a potentially drab area.

 

Nice picture, the switch machine looks just like a Peco one.

 

What does a theatre indicator look like?

[beast66606]

I will stick with the orange pipe as I quite like the colour!. Plus it livens up a potentially drab area.

 

Nice picture, the switch machine looks just like a Peco one.

 

What does a theatre indicator look like?

 

Orange pipe is still common, it's no longer the preferred method for new work but it hasn't been removed.

 

Theatre photo.

 

http://www.johnskipsey.fotopic.net/p65356541.html

[beast66606]

Are you still in need of assistance for your signalling ?

[davetheroad]

Are you still in need of assistance for your signalling ?

 

i have just found this diagram which is going to help a lot. however there are still questions that need answering.

 

 

I need some help in interpreting what the symbols mean and how this could be applied to Castle Rock.

 

1. The exit from Wapping Sidings has a ground signal 293 but what is the other symbol with it?

 

2. At the north end of castle rock the up platform 4 is bi-directional and it appears that it needs to be 4 aspect with a couple of other indicators. I have found photos of Carlisle which show it mounted on a gantry so it is going to be a scratchbuild job!.

 

3. Down platform 3 should be a 4 aspect again with 2 additional symbols, is this to handle the facing crossover beyond the station?

 

4. Down platform 1 will be 4 aspect, again with a theatre indicator?

 

5. The exit from 'Whopping' siding will have a ground symbol plus the mysterious rectange.

 

6. Ground frames? for the siding points?

 

The south end of the station is more problematical as I reckon there should be control of the various crossovers from the station direction plus ground signals?

 

Here are the latest diagrams

 

 

 

This is the track layout for the north end, nothing pinned of course. The nearest lego brick is where the tunnel entrance will be.

 

[beast66606]

Hi Dave,

 

Note that 'B'ertie and 'C'harlie are now the through goods lines.

 

(It's also easier if you refer to the signal numbers rather than "at the north end of P3" etc)

 

1. The exit from Wapping Sidings has a ground signal 293 but what is the other symbol with it?

 

1 - thats a stencil, it would show things like 1, 2, A etc. (see the photo where you asked if it was a theatre, above)

 

2. At the north end of castle rock the up platform 4 is bi-directional and it appears that it needs to be 4 aspect with a couple of other indicators. I have found photos of Carlisle which show it mounted on a gantry so it is going to be a scratchbuild job!.

 

2 - you aren't modelling Carlisle so use your own structure, as long as it fits.

 

3. Down platform 3 should be a 4 aspect again with 2 additional symbols, is this to handle the facing crossover beyond the station?

 

It's a shunt to the LOS located on the up main, near CE431, the square with an X in it

 

4. Down platform 1 will be 4 aspect, again with a theatre indicator?

 

No theatre, only one route but the same shunt to the LOS

 

5. The exit from 'Whopping' siding will have a ground symbol plus the mysterious rectange.

 

See 1

 

6. Ground frames? for the siding points?

 

Hand worked.

 

hth,

 

I will take a look at the other plans etc. later.

[beast66606]

As you have main aspects for the departures you don't need many ground signals, only one in fact (due to the compressed layout), remember to clear it for arrivals, it would be acting as an in route ground signal. (It's the little blob to the left of the word "Gantry", it has a stencil showing 4 or 5)

 

 

Carlisle has theatres on the main signals, S4, S5 etc.

 

PS - Whopping is spelt Wapping (if you want it to be correct !)

 

hth

[davetheroad]

As you have main aspects for the departures you don't need many ground signals, only one in fact (due to the compressed layout), remember to clear it for arrivals, it would be acting as an in route ground signal. (It's the little blob to the left of the word "Gantry", it has a stencil showing 4 or 5)

 

 

Carlisle has theatres on the main signals, S4, S5 etc.

 

PS - Whopping is spelt Wapping (if you want it to be correct !)

 

hth

Mmm!, only one ground signal required but I am still confused. You say it is a 'in route signal', which direction is the train travelling here? If the train is travelling to the right why is the signal to the right of all the tracks?

 

Sorry I was not clear about S8, it controls the exit from the bay platform and would 305 or 306 be more suitable. I positioned it to the left of the track as I read somewhere that signals should be to the left of the track if possible?

 

Whopping sidings is intentional, any resemblance to the real location is purely coincidential!

 

Back to the north end of the station.

I am thinking that rather than a gantry mounting the S3 signal above the tunnel entrance with an access from one side would be a easier construction project?

 

Am I right in placing 2 ground signals as indicated by the small red squares?

 

I think we are almost there? as far as the signals are concerned so I just need to think of those cabinets.

At the left of the station near the tunnel a brick airconned equipment room would be good and at the right I would quite like some cabinets but how many. Or should I just scatter some around here and there?

[beast66606]

In simple terms an in route GS is one which can form part of the route of a main aspect and is required to be clear for the main aspect to clear.

 

In your case, and I'm assuming the up line is bi-directional as it is at Carlisle, if a train was to arrive along (left to right) the bottom line, it would require the signal to be cleared, as well as if you shunt forward out of P4 or P5, if you were really pedantic the P4 and P5 should have subsidiary signals, like CE327 in your pics, to allow for this shunt, but the main aspect reading to the same line will do.

 

(Hope that all makes sense)

 

S8 will be fine as a 4-aspect the same as the others (although I think this is only a 3 on the prototype).

 

S3 - depends on your skill at construction !

 

The ground signals at the North are fine, put them at the toe of the relevant points, they are in route ones - as described above.

 

hth

[davetheroad]

In simple terms an in route GS is one which can form part of the route of a main aspect and is required to be clear for the main aspect to clear.

 

In your case, and I'm assuming the up line is bi-directional as it is at Carlisle, if a train was to arrive along (left to right) the bottom line, it would require the signal to be cleared, as well as if you shunt forward out of P4 or P5, if you were really pedantic the P4 and P5 should have subsidiary signals, like CE327 in your pics, to allow for this shunt, but the main aspect reading to the same line will do.

 

(Hope that all makes sense)

 

S8 will be fine as a 4-aspect the same as the others (although I think this is only a 3 on the prototype).

 

S3 - depends on your skill at construction !

 

The ground signals at the North are fine, put them at the toe of the relevant points, they are in route ones - as described above.

 

hth

Err, yes, I think I understand about the ground signal, I presume it can only be read from a train leaving the tunnel and the stencil shows which platform the train will enter. So it is OK to have it to the right of the line?

 

Trains leaving the left tunnel via the down and branch lines can potentially enter all 5 platforms so would in route ground signals be needed, or are these handled by off base board signals at the other end of the tunnel?

[beast66606]

Err, yes, I think I understand about the ground signal, I presume it can only be read from a train leaving the tunnel and the stencil shows which platform the train will enter. So it is OK to have it to the right of the line?

 

I drew it there for convenience on the artwork ! - you can position it where it's best fitted, to the left of the running line is the norm.

 

Trains leaving the left tunnel via the down and branch lines can potentially enter all 5 platforms so would in route ground signals be needed, or are these handled by off base board signals at the other end of the tunnel?

 

Correct off scene signals, possibly on a more spread out prototype shunts would be provided but on a compressed model they become too cramped.

 

hth

[davetheroad]

Brilliant!, thanks very much

Will the ground signals at the northern end have stencils?

 

These are the latest drawings, I have added some tentative cable trough etc.

 

 

[beast66606]

Yes the North end GPLS will have stencils, showing "1 or 3" and "1 or SDG" respectively.

[davetheroad]

Great, I can now start thinking about laying some track.

 

Actually I spent today re-engineering the baseboard support levelling sub-assemblies and will test erecting the boards again tomorrow.

 

Perhaps I will start a topic on the layout section as there will be a lot going on in the next few months.

 

The layout has had a name change. It is now CASTLEROCK which can be the name of the station.

 

Thanks again for all your help.

[beast66606]

Great, I can now start thinking about laying some track.

 

Actually I spent today re-engineering the baseboard support levelling sub-assemblies and will test erecting the boards again tomorrow.

 

Perhaps I will start a topic on the layout section as there will be a lot going on in the next few months.

 

The layout has had a name change. It is now CASTLEROCK which can be the name of the station.

 

Thanks again for all your help.

 

No problem - I'm always happy to help