BlueRail Trains - Bluetooth Locomotive Control

[Ron Ron Ron]

But DCC drawback is it's relatively high cost and complexity to achieve the sort of functionality younger and newer entrants to the hobby might hope to achieve.

 

I don't think it is helpful to confuse "younger" and "new entrants" to the hobby.

If we are talking about the train set market and kid's toys, that is not "new entrants" to the hobby. It has nothing to do with the hobby really.

Very few kid's who play with a train set are going to become future modellers.  We need to "get real" here. What's left of the toy train market is mostly toys for very young children (4 - 9 year olds).

 

Bachmann Trains (US) are heavily involved in the children's toy train market in N. America. In the UK they have only really dabbled in this market.

I can see the EZ-app offering being used to update and spice up the attractiveness of toy train sets, in what is a shrinking market.

 

"New entrants" to the hobby is another thing altogether. 

Attractive tech and affordable prices would indeed be a very useful tool in trying to attract young and old Adults to the hobby.

 

 

.

[Nile_Griffith]

I don't think it is helpful to confuse "younger" and "new entrants" to the hobby.

If we are talking about the train set market and kid's toys, that is not "new entrants" to the hobby. It has nothing to do with the hobby really.

Very few kid's who play with a train set are going to become future modellers.  We need to "get real" here. What's left of the toy train market is mostly toys for very young children (4 - 9 year olds).

 

Bachmann Trains (US) are heavily involved in the children's toy train market in N. America. In the UK they have only really dabbled in this market.

I can see the EZ-app offering being used to update and spice up the attractiveness of toy train sets, in what is a shrinking market.

 

"New entrants" to the hobby is another thing altogether. 

Attractive tech and affordable prices would indeed be a very useful tool in trying to attract young and old Adults to the hobby.

 

 

.

 HI

 

I must admit to a very heavy degree of generalisation in an attempt to try and keep my ramblings brief (and boy can I ramble on).

 

I think it's a bit difficult to actually draw definitive pathways as to where new modellers originate from. My own entry came out of a joke Birthday present I was bought when I was in my early forties. As a kid my family neither had the funds or the space to allow me to have a train set of my own. So it was that joke present much later in life, a Hornby Flying Scotsman train set, that triggered my imagination and interest (and prompted me to think there had to be a better way to control a loco than a simple DC controller). I know that there are lot of modellers like me out there, who have revisited what was a childhood pleasure and moved it on a step or six.

 

Yes an eight year old with a new train set might not be described as a proficient modeller, but I do think that there is more than a reasonable link to the hobby. It's just really how much their train set fires that young individuals imagination. Is a ten year olds desire to save up his pocket money to buy a ready to plonk station building and an extra couple of wagons, so as to create a scenario, a playscape that his or her interest and imagination has prompted really all that different to a thirty something budgeting for and planning how to build and assemble a representation of his notion of a model railway? The skill level might be different, but not the personal motivation.

 

Agreed the drop off levels of those kids who continue on with their train collection into their teens and beyond is significant, but as mentioned before, how many of us came back to it later in life.

 

But isn't that the testimony of a good product? That it is found useful by a broad and diverse range of users and not just the preserve of a niche user base.

Edited February 4, 2015 by Nile_Griffith

[Mike Friedman]

The problem Bachmann will have to overcome in the toy market is one of immediacy of gratification, by this I mean the ability of little Johnny to open his train set on Christmas morning set out the oval of track and PLAY.

 

You can imagine the conversation on Christmas eve when Johnny's mum (Susan) is wrapping the train set:

“Dave, did you notice the bit on the back of the box? It says it needs a smart device to operate.”

 

“No I didn't. What kind of smart device?” replies Dave (Johnny's Dad and Susan's partner) who bought the set as an impulse yesterday at CrapToys R You.

 

Susan: “Full details are in the box or on the BaccyTrain website. I don't want to open the box, so go on the web and find out what it needs.”

 

Dave duly goes to the computer and after twenty minutes struggling with 26 required updates and two essential re-starts as well as anti virus warnings fires up the browser and reaches the BaccyTrain website.

Calling to Susan: “It needs a device running the Gumboot operating system, Costa Rica beans version or later. It also runs on iPiddle devices running the Xii version or later.”

 

Susan: “ Johnny's phone runs Gumboot but I think he's still on Arabica beans not Costa Rica”.

 

Dave: “We could download the app to your i-ncontinance Pad and run the trains from that. Its' on Xii isn't it?”

 

Susan (with a sharp edge to the tone, implying Dave has gone and made another of his ill thought out idiotic impulse purchases): “It's my i-ncontinance Pad.I don't want Johnny messing with my settings and Facefoot postings, some can be adult. You'll have to go up and get Johnnys' phone, upgrade it and download the app so he can use it to run the trains tomorrow when he opens the box.”

 

Dave s' own phone was chosen to be compatible with his work documents and so runs the Patio Door operating system. The train control app is not available for Patio Door devices.

 

This being Christmas eve it has taken the last two hours for Johnny to get to sleep. Now Dave will have to sneak into his room and take the 'phone from the boy's bedside table.

With the 'phone safely retrieved Dave sets about upgrading it from Arabica to Costa Rica. This should have been easy but for the annoying tendency of the phone to drop its' connection to the router around the 98% complete stage. However at the third attempt the 'phone is successfully upgraded.

Now Dave attempts to log into the Gumboot Music and Apps store. It askes for a user ID and password. Could it be that his young son had accessed the store in the past and already set up an ID and password? It would appear so.

“Susan, did you know Johnny has been buying stuff from the Gumboot store?” an edge of exasperation in his voice.

 

Susan: “Yes, he asked me if he could. He needed to use my credit card details to pay.”

 

Dave: “Do you know what ID and password he used?”

 

Susan: “Nope, he set them up on his own.”

 

Dave: “Well I can't download the app from the store unless I know his password.”

 

Susan: “Don't you dare wake him. It's taken over two hours for him to get to sleep.”

 

Dave snaps and in the manner of John Cleese about to thrash his car marches to the pile of presents at the bottom of the tree; grabs the beautifully wrapped train set ripping the stupidly expensive Edwardian style Christmas paper from it.

“ This is going back to the shop! And now it's going to move without electricity or control mechanism.” And indeed it does as he kicks it deftly out of the living room into the hall, another deft kick and it bounces off the front door.

Dave calms as the somewhat battered large oblong box is dumped in the boot of his car.

Slamming the door he mutters: “It was bad enough when batteries were not included.”

[Glorious NSE]

I think if you have a wander round your average toy shop these days there's plenty of toys designed to work with mobile devices...

Edited February 4, 2015 by Glorious NSE

[rgmichel]

I think if you have a wonder round your average toy shop these days there's plenty of toys designed to work with mobile devices...

I agree.  As I watch my 2-5 year-old grandchildren competently control a smartphone, whatever they are doing on there, I have no fears about Bluetooth control of toy trains in the future.  Parents these days are not parking their kids in front of the TV all the time, they also park an iOS device in their hands.

[Glorious NSE]

I know nothing about Bluetooth which will probably become obvious from my next question.

Is Bluetooth a one to one pairing or can one handset (throttle) be paired to many other devices (locos)? I assume then that data would be transmitted to all locos but each would have its own 'address' and act only on its own packets of data.

It is a one to one pairing I believe, but the handset should be able to sustain individual pairings to multiple devices - that would be my *suspicion* of how they will acheive MU operation, by telling two loco's to move at once.

 

Once paired I think it will remember the pairing, so you should be able to select and deselect loco's you've paired before.

 

I think there's lots of interesting questions on how you program a loco's ID or characteristics (there must be a way of calling it something useful, like a loco number or name!) - how you pair if the chip is under a loco shell, exactly how MU works and so on. 

[jjb1970]

I bought my little fella a Hornby Railmaster trainset for Christmas and the fact that you need a computer to play with it is not a problem and he loves the PC interface.

[davepallant]

As anyone found out the cost of a the blue tooth smart, chip is likely to be. After looking on the web I haven't been able to get a price. Which could be the making of this or even the thing that kills it of before it gets going.

 

The company I work for is developing new Bluetooth Low Energy devices. The power consumption for the latest chips has dropped enormously so is now even better for use in handheld devices, watches, health sensors etc. The popularity of those devices increases now that they dont need charging every night so the numbers sold are going up and the price is coming down. We have just had a rep in from one of the major chip manufacturers talking about prices less than a dollar for Bluetooth Low Energy chips (buying 10s of thousands or more in a year) and that includes a built in processor capable of decoding the messages and outputting to a motor driver. That puts it in the same ballpark as a DCC decoder which might have a slightly cheaper processor but not by much. The track can now power the loco by DCC, a constant DC power supply or even a standard DC track controller turned up full. You would be able to take your Bluetooth loco which might cost £10 more than the DC loco and run it on pretty much anyones layout controlling it with your phone or tablet.  I'm thinking that the big gain for someone starting out is being able to power your own medium sized layout with a £20 power supply and not have the initial DCC cliff of a £200 5A DCC track booster to afford!

 

Use of Bluetooth is quite well defined and, given that the interface is embedded in the chip the messages and addressing should be very standard and therefore easily backward engineered. The messages over the air have to be sent to a certain standard for the system to work and for it to be called Bluetooth and use the Bluetooth chipset. The only risk to open source could be the manufacturer deciding to encrypt the data content of the messages so that it is impossible to work out how the messages have to be encoded to send the correct message to control the loco. Given that manufacturers don't currently do that for DCC and in many cases publish their proprietary control bus message specs so that groups like JMRI can easily interact with their equipment does suggest to me that train control will continue to be open.

 

An interesting thought is that DCC currently enters a layout through a single track  booster. It is difficult to use multiple track boosters on a layout except when they are fed the same command bus signal. Multiple controllers are handled by connecting them with one of several command buses like LocoNet and XpressNet. However, given a way of assigning which control device speaks to which loco or accessory then the air is the Bluetooth bus and any device could talk to any loco simultaneously with multiple manufacturers controllers and devices all working at the same time. If you want a dedicated Bluetooth points controller panel for your Bluetooth accessory decoders then you dont need to worry about whether your favourite command bus has a specific controller that will do the controlling job, you should be able to use any.

 

Dave

[Nile_Griffith]

Did check out the Bluerail site (at last) and although the link didn't seem to work, they did seem to be offering circuit diagram information with regard to their chip. So I guess as Dave Pallant above pointed out, they don't feel or see an economic need to be protective about their designs.

[Crosland]

I am somewhat sceptical about the low power claims. The electronics themselves (e.g. the processors used in smart phones) are always advancing in terms of lower power but when it comes to radio communications there are fundamental laws of physics, related to bandwidth and range, that cannot be circumvented (we aren't quite there yet with the processors).

 

The lowest power bluetooth devices save power by transmitting very short packets and not transmitting continuously. A train control handset need to be "always on" sending a continuous stream of packets, and there will be little or no benefit in battery life compared to earlier Bluetooth or WiFi implementations.

 

Andrew

[Nile_Griffith]

I am somewhat sceptical about the low power claims. The electronics themselves (e.g. the processors used in smart phones) are always advancing in terms of lower power but when it comes to radio communications there are fundamental laws of physics, related to bandwidth and range, that cannot be circumvented (we aren't quite there yet with the processors).

 

The lowest power bluetooth devices save power by transmitting very short packets and not transmitting continuously. A train control handset need to be "always on" sending a continuous stream of packets, and there will be little or no benefit in battery life compared to earlier Bluetooth or WiFi implementations.

 

Andrew

 

Not necessarily. There are various "compression" techniques involved with data transfer. Essentially the software is constantly looking at what "input" is arriving from the control surface. if there is no change in input then the software does not transmit. The largest drain on power would be transmitting sound (in whatever format) to the loco's bluetooth enable control chip, as the information is continuous and constantly changing.

 

However. I would assume that the loco control chip would derive its power from the voltage presented to the rails and that in the case of whatever handheld devise you wish to use, assuming it has an average battery should still offer well over an hours worth of fully wireless use. Should of course your smartphone or tablet be feeling a little underpowered or more likely, been overlooked when it came to recharging. All quite happily operate fully while being plugged into their chargers, albeit admittedly tethering them to a fairly skinny bit of cable.

 

All in all I don't see power as a major issue and even for those who would use on board batteries to power their loco's. The the loco's electric motors will be by far the greatest draw on battery reserves.

[Ron Ron Ron]

.....The largest drain on power would be transmitting sound (in whatever format) to the loco's bluetooth enable control chip, as the information is continuous and constantly changing......

According to their web site and information reportedly given verbally by Bachmann, BlueRail Trains (the system under discussion here), currently has no such plans to transmit sound via Bluetooth to locos.

 

They are offering AirPlay transmission of sound to remote AirPlay equipped speakers, and have "ambitions" to be able to use the system to trigger "on-board" sound modules at some future date. 

 

.

[Nile_Griffith]

According to their web site and information reportedly given verbally by Bachmann, BlueRail Trains (the system under discussion here), currently has no such plans to transmit sound via Bluetooth to locos.

 

They are offering AirPlay transmission of sound to remote AirPlay equipped speakers, and have "ambitions" to be able to use the system to trigger "on-board" sound modules at some future date. 

 

.

 

Hello Ron.

 

Again I was talking generically about the potential of Bluettoth enabled control. I wasn't aiming my observation directly at Bluerail's product. However the same consideration comes into play as Bluerail "aims" it's sound output via "Airplay". So the process is kind of the same it's just the target being different (an Airplay device rather than the Loco's decoder chip).

[rgmichel]

The track can now power the loco by DCC, a constant DC power supply or even a standard DC track controller turned up full. You would be able to take your Bluetooth loco which might cost £10 more than the DC loco and run it on pretty much anyones layout controlling it with your phone or tablet. 

 

I think this statement is clear from the Bachmann wording in their publicity.  However, do you know whether or not it is likely to be practical/inexpensive to piggyback a bluetooth chipset to control a regular dcc loco, or a dcc loco with sound?  If this can be done, is it likely to be impractical in some way or other?  The only reason I ask this question is whether or not bluetooth control could be implemented on an existing dcc layout without obsoleting the locos and track configurations.

[Glorious NSE]

I think this statement is clear from the Bachmann wording in their publicity.  However, do you know whether or not it is likely to be practical/inexpensive to piggyback a bluetooth chipset to control a regular dcc loco, or a dcc loco with sound?  If this can be done, is it likely to be impractical in some way or other?  The only reason I ask this question is whether or not bluetooth control could be implemented on an existing dcc layout without obsoleting the locos and track configurations.

But why would you need to? Surely you just need to keep using your existing DCC equipment, but put a bluetooth chip instead of a DCC one in any new ones if you wanted to go that way. No need to scrap anything, the bluetooth loco will work perfectly well on the track powered by DCC.

[davepallant]

I am somewhat sceptical about the low power claims. The electronics themselves (e.g. the processors used in smart phones) are always advancing in terms of lower power but when it comes to radio communications there are fundamental laws of physics, related to bandwidth and range, that cannot be circumvented (we aren't quite there yet with the processors).

 

The lowest power bluetooth devices save power by transmitting very short packets and not transmitting continuously. A train control handset need to be "always on" sending a continuous stream of packets, and there will be little or no benefit in battery life compared to earlier Bluetooth or WiFi implementations.

 

My first 2.4GHz product was 8 years ago now and we are still using that Atmel ATR2406 even though newer parts have come out since. It uses an almost identical frequency hopping system to the Bluetooth of the time and similar power consumption to the Bluetooth alternative from Chipcon. Until recently the improvements in power consumption were not worth the work of rewriting the code.. It was stuck at 4dBm transmit power (maybe 100m line of sight) and it uses over 40mA in transmit and more importantly over 50mA in receive. Use short messages and you certainly get far better average current but there are times when you have to sit in receive waiting for a sync message from the master and the underlying receive current eats into the battery.

 

A more recent part like the CC2540 which is now Texas Instruments has switchable output power so you can drop to 0dBm (maybe 30m line of sight) and transmit and receive baseline are around 18mA for both.

 

I dont even need to refer to new parts on their way later this summer since I've just found a new part (new to me) that would be perfect for fitting in a loco and that It's the ST BlueNRG part which has a baseline of 8mA at 0dBm in transmit and 7mA in receive. Also it is available in a chip that is 2.7mm by 2.6mm! That should definitely go in an N gauge 8 pin decoder! http://www.st.com/web/en/resource/technical/document/datasheet/DM00092683.pdf  Since it contains a processor as well it would drop into the processor space on most decoders but would also need an antenna which could possibly be a copper track around the edge of the board or possibly a short piece of insulated wire, maybe 20mm, that would need to be routed inside the loco body from the decoder.

[Nile_Griffith]

My first 2.4GHz product was 8 years ago now and we are still using that Atmel ATR2406 even though newer parts have come out since. It uses an almost identical frequency hopping system to the Bluetooth of the time and similar power consumption to the Bluetooth alternative from Chipcon. Until recently the improvements in power consumption were not worth the work of rewriting the code.. It was stuck at 4dBm transmit power (maybe 100m line of sight) and it uses over 40mA in transmit and more importantly over 50mA in receive. Use short messages and you certainly get far better average current but there are times when you have to sit in receive waiting for a sync message from the master and the underlying receive current eats into the battery.

 

A more recent part like the CC2540 which is now Texas Instruments has switchable output power so you can drop to 0dBm (maybe 30m line of sight) and transmit and receive baseline are around 18mA for both.

 

I dont even need to refer to new parts on their way later this summer since I've just found a new part (new to me) that would be perfect for fitting in a loco and that It's the ST BlueNRG part which has a baseline of 8mA at 0dBm in transmit and 7mA in receive. Also it is available in a chip that is 2.7mm by 2.6mm! That should definitely go in an N gauge 8 pin decoder! http://www.st.com/web/en/resource/technical/document/datasheet/DM00092683.pdf  Since it contains a processor as well it would drop into the processor space on most decoders but would also need an antenna which could possibly be a copper track around the edge of the board or possibly a short piece of insulated wire, maybe 20mm, that would need to be routed inside the loco body from the decoder.

 

Would still contend that the power question isn't really that much of an issue. The chipped Loco is most likely to be drawing power from the layout track and that in turn is powered from a mains supplied transformer typically. If we are talking larger gauges using on board batteries, then the Loco's motors are providing a greater draw on the batteries stored capacity than the potential chip. The only concern with power draw, lies in the various hand held tablet and smartphone devices that could be used. My current iPhone 5 on a full charge with wifi and bluetooth connections both running last a good twenty four hours with fairly average use. And even it was low on power it can still be used while on charge

 

Looking at the bluerail website they are using a harness to link between the loco's NEM socket and their BlueRal control chip. So whether your buying a DCC ready loco or looking to swap out your old DCC chip it is pretty straightforward. AS already pointed out, you can run a BlueRail equipped loco on your existing DCC layout. So for the price of chip and the app, assuming you have a compatible device with which to control the chip, you can evaluate the system at a pretty low cost. Is there a low cost start up for DCC?

[rgmichel]

But why would you need to? Surely you just need to keep using your existing DCC equipment, but put a bluetooth chip instead of a DCC one in any new ones if you wanted to go that way. No need to scrap anything, the bluetooth loco will work perfectly well on the track powered by DCC.

Actually, I want the Bluetooth to control the dcc locomotive.  If the loco has sound, a significant investment, then it would be important to be able to control the sound functions, and also to reprogram the loco, or be able to control all the functions you would want to control.  We can control many functions now with dcc, but with arcane difficulty compared to iOS control.  Its not just a matter of running a bluetooth loco on a dcc layout.  Also, why would you want to have both dcc and bluetooth control on the same layout?  One would want to replace all the  old-dcc control with Bluetooth surely?  What's the point of Bluetooth if you don't do this?

[Andy Reichert]

Actually, I want the Bluetooth to control the dcc locomotive.  If the loco has sound, a significant investment, then it would be important to be able to control the sound functions, and also to reprogram the loco, or be able to control all the functions you would want to control.  We can control many functions now with dcc, but with arcane difficulty compared to iOS control.  Its not just a matter of running a bluetooth loco on a dcc layout.  Also, why would you want to have both dcc and bluetooth control on the same layout?  One would want to replace all the  old-dcc control with Bluetooth surely?  What's the point of Bluetooth if you don't do this?

 

The economics of production of a combined bluetooth and full DCC decoder equivalent features chip, is that there is a good chance it would need to be specialized and hence low volume. So likely to be much more expensive than a high volume generic.

 

I'm biased but I hate the iOS and touch screen concept for a hand held throttle. First it takes two hands, 'cos you have to hold it in one and touch with the other. Second you really have to look at the screen and not the train when making changes for stuff like kissing touch coupling up when switching.Third you can't feel anything on it, so pretending you are pulling on a lever takes a lot of suspension of disbelief.

 

I should add that unless your employer is proving the phone, it's way up there in cost, even if you don't have phone service. And if your employer does own the phone, you may even be evading taxes. . .

 

Andy

Edited February 5, 2015 by Andy Reichert

[Glorious NSE]

Actually, I want the Bluetooth to control the dcc locomotive.  If the loco has sound, a significant investment, then it would be important to be able to control the sound functions, and also to reprogram the loco, or be able to control all the functions you would want to control.  We can control many functions now with dcc, but with arcane difficulty compared to iOS control.  Its not just a matter of running a bluetooth loco on a dcc layout.  Also, why would you want to have both dcc and bluetooth control on the same layout?  One would want to replace all the  old-dcc control with Bluetooth surely?  What's the point of Bluetooth if you don't do this?

You can (most likely) have iOS control of your DCC layout already - so why would you replace all that to get something that does the same thing?

[Glorious NSE]

I'm biased but I hate the iOS and touch screen concept for a hand held throttle. First it takes two hands, 'cos you have to hold it in one and touch with the other. Second you really have to look at the screen and not the train when making changes for stuff like kissing touch coupling up when switching.Third you can't feel anything on it, so pretending you are pulling on a lever takes a lot of suspension of disbelief.

 

I should add that unless your employer is proving the phone, it's way up there in cost, even if you don't have phone service. And if your employer does own the phone, you may even be evading taxes. . .

Cant/won't comment on iOS, but for the Android equivalents the throttles for DCC let you use the volume control buttons to control, which is both more tactile and lets you use it one-handed, plus they can be had for very small sums, much less than I'd have to pay for a DCC throttle...

[Oakydoke]

The latest stats give the level of ownership of Smartphones in the UK as between 65% and 72% of the population! depending on which research you believe. I think the equivalent figures for the USA are something like 52% to 65%.

 

That's for the latter end of 2014, with continuing rapid growth expected this year.

 

It's not very helpful to suggest the cost of a phone should be factored in to the cost of adopting any smart device based control system, or smart device DCC throttle. The sale or availability of these options is based on the user already having the ownership or use of an appropriate device.

 

If the local filling station are advertising that a litre of unleaded is now down to £1.05, I don't expect someone to complain that they haven't added the cost of buying a car onto the price of buying the fuel, for someone without a car. The assumption is that if you are buying fuel, it's because you have a car.

[Andy Reichert]

The latest stats give the level of ownership of Smartphones in the UK as between 65% and 72% of the population! depending on which research you believe. I think the equivalent figures for the USA are something like 52% to 65%.

 

That's for the latter end of 2014, with continuing rapid growth expected this year.

 

It's not very helpful to suggest the cost of a phone should be factored in to the cost of adopting any smart device based control system, or smart device DCC throttle. The sale or availability of these options is based on the user already having the ownership or use of an appropriate device.

 

If the local filling station are advertising that a litre of unleaded is now down to £1.05, I don't expect someone to complain that they haven't added the cost of buying a car onto the price of buying the fuel, for someone without a car. The assumption is that if you are buying fuel, it's because you have a car.

 

I think several earlier posts do compare the entry cost favourably against the necessary alternative entry to DCC investment.

 

If the intended use of the fuel is for high-risk BBQ, then I would agree with you. But if you intend to use it to power a car for travel to work, then yes, the cost of the car will have to be amortized in as well, if comparing it with an alternative travel means, such as by bicycle, or bus.

Edited February 6, 2015 by Andy Reichert

[Glorious NSE]

Andy, recent reports from the US suggest Android ones can now be had for under $10 if you shop around. Thats considerably less than any dcc system...

[rgmichel]

You can (most likely) have iOS control of your DCC layout already - so why would you replace all that to get something that does the same thing?

Exactly.  So, what is the point of bluetooth?