Andy Reichert Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 (edited) Hi. Well if you are looking for a more definitive test than either the link I posted to Bachmann's demo or your own layout, then I can suggest a few more rigorous ones. However the object of posting the video's link was to offer up something a little more than the usual forum rhetoric. I am pretty certain the guys at BlueRail Trains would hope their video would be received in the spirit of the hobby rather than being appraised as some form of "Gold Standard" definition. As for your concern that future models may not be released in a format suitable for your modelling needs provides a choice that is for you to make. Manufacturers aren't charities and although it is reasonable to expect a healthy level of regard for their customers on their part. They still have an obligation to develop their business in a profitable manner. Should that further development include within it the introduction of new manufacturing techniques or technologies then that has to be a good thing overall as it presents the hobby'ist with choice. What to my mind is not so welcome, are those that "Do Down" novel materials, techniques or technologies in an attempt to preserve their own niche. I can't put 35 years of successful, non-charity, hi-tech product development and marketing expertise into a small posting on RM web. But you really need to be aware of the difference between "features" and "benefits". And also that in very many cases "new and exciting" is not always "better" when looked at over the long term. I'm not "down" on novelty, just professional in assessing the real value of it. But then I'm not automatically down on existing older technologies that do a good job either. The skill of marketing is to have some unique feature(s) in your products that you can persuade a lot of potential customers that are either real benefits, or more skillfully, should desired as apparent benefits, even if they can't be always justified as such. "Spirit of the Hobby" for example? For the maybe 1% of model railways in gardens, 150 ft range feature may be a good benefit. For the majority who have in-home layouts, 30 ft has to be more than adequate. However, being able to drive a loco you can barely even see with a telephoto lens, from 150 ft away, is a strange need indeed. But interestingly, for those that might need to, perhaps from a far away control center?, you can do just that, from 1 ft to 1000 ft, while knowing the exact actual speed in real-time, and even with a little additional tech also know the distance travelled, just using 50 year old DC and a pair of wires. And so as not to overlook just a few examples of new exciting technologies that we should have not implemented so quickly and over-confidently. Remember leaded petrol; Thalidomide; the first shuttle tragedy, square edged windows on the Comet, Turbine locomotives, and of course the unsinkable Titanic? And the UK Windscale fire was thankfully contained from because a "downer" insisted on putting "unnecessary" filters on the cooling towers. Yup. I'm all for choices and progress. But I don't have to be naive as well. Andy Edited March 4, 2015 by Andy Reichert Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
deadlyduck Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 Does anyone remember what life was like before the Mobile phone?.Look at what they do now,the same will be said about DCC.We all have choices if you dont want the New technologies you get left behind,me im all for them.Its great to think someone wants to further our hobby but if hobbyists want to stay with their Triang of Wrenn locos so be it they still are able to run them.If its a way of bringing more people into our hobby we should embrace it 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crosland Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 Does anyone remember what life was like before the Mobile phone?. I'm still living it I can think of very, very few situation where a mobile is neccessary where we didn't cope previously. Don't get me started on people who need to use one whilst driving... The most useful use for a smartphone is to run WiThrottle or Engine Driver. Andrew Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold roundhouse Posted March 5, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 5, 2015 I dont make many calls on mine. More used for internet access to check train times, emails etc. Certainly against using them whilst driving even hands free. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Reichert Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 Does anyone remember what life was like before the Mobile phone?.Look at what they do now,the same will be said about DCC.We all have choices if you dont want the New technologies you get left behind,me im all for them.Its great to think someone wants to further our hobby but if hobbyists want to stay with their Triang of Wrenn locos so be it they still are able to run them.If its a way of bringing more people into our hobby we should embrace it I'm not left behind at all. The company I worked for INVENTED Bluetooth. You could say I'm actually 13 years ahead of that technology. . I'm certainly working on stuff that is way ahead of anything being posted in RM Web. But that's typical of R&D. Once it's mentioned in a magazine, it's already old hat. And I have to say I don't agree with the blanket claim of any/every new technology "furthering the hobby" bit. My models look and run as state of the art, without there being any bluetooth connection in them. And you couldn't tell by watching two identical model trains running, which of them was using DCC and which was using Bachmann's system. That's rather the problem with praising any Bluetooth or R/C control system, this early. So far they are only trying to emulate the "same old" manual control we have presently. Nothing actually advancing the general modelling of trains at all. Andy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
deadlyduck Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 Im odd 1 out never had 1.I like my life 2 much Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
deadlyduck Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 We should all be saluting new technology.The chip now like it or not rules all of our lives.So putting 1 into a loco or on the next rung of the ladder another technology takes over,so what .Just think of how far so far we have come from the caves in such a small space of time.Technology can benefit everyone,except the 1s that refuse to use it Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rgmichel Posted March 6, 2015 Author Share Posted March 6, 2015 That's rather the problem with praising any Bluetooth or R/C control system, this early. So far they are only trying to emulate the "same old" manual control we have presently. Nothing actually advancing the general modelling of trains at all. This is very true, and I could not possibly disagree, and as the one who started this thread I was interested in the potential of Bluetooth to open up advances in the modelling of trains. Often, if something is made easier, then it advances modelling because other things can be done that we gave up after hitting a brick wall somewhere. If dcc can be made easier through bluetooth control, making CV reading easier, locomotive control easier, etc, then we can move on to other things. One thing that comes to mind is easier or more realistic control of train operations, signaling, and so on. I am sure others might think of other issues that need attention that would advance our modelling. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glorious NSE Posted March 6, 2015 Share Posted March 6, 2015 That's rather the problem with praising any Bluetooth or R/C control system, this early. So far they are only trying to emulate the "same old" manual control we have presently. Nothing actually advancing the general modelling of trains at all. Not sure the point here is to "praise it" - I think what we're doing is trying to discuss what it may or may not bring. I would disagree with "no advance" - if it provides a way to do control with reduced/simpler wiring, I would see that as an advance, if it (later) provides a PnP way of doing wire-free (as per one of the video's) - that's definitely an advance. Whilst I agree it doesn't make any difference visually to your models, less work on (lets face it, unprototypical!) electrical support networks may well free people up (in both time/effort and finances) to spend more time doing other things in the hobby... 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nile_Griffith Posted March 6, 2015 Share Posted March 6, 2015 I can't put 35 years of successful, non-charity, hi-tech product development and marketing expertise into a small posting on RM web. But you really need to be aware of the difference between "features" and "benefits". And also that in very many cases "new and exciting" is not always "better" when looked at over the long term. I'm not "down" on novelty, just professional in assessing the real value of it. But then I'm not automatically down on existing older technologies that do a good job either. The skill of marketing is to have some unique feature(s) in your products that you can persuade a lot of potential customers that are either real benefits, or more skillfully, should desired as apparent benefits, even if they can't be always justified as such. "Spirit of the Hobby" for example? For the maybe 1% of model railways in gardens, 150 ft range feature may be a good benefit. For the majority who have in-home layouts, 30 ft has to be more than adequate. However, being able to drive a loco you can barely even see with a telephoto lens, from 150 ft away, is a strange need indeed. But interestingly, for those that might need to, perhaps from a far away control center?, you can do just that, from 1 ft to 1000 ft, while knowing the exact actual speed in real-time, and even with a little additional tech also know the distance travelled, just using 50 year old DC and a pair of wires. And so as not to overlook just a few examples of new exciting technologies that we should have not implemented so quickly and over-confidently. Remember leaded petrol; Thalidomide; the first shuttle tragedy, square edged windows on the Comet, Turbine locomotives, and of course the unsinkable Titanic? And the UK Windscale fire was thankfully contained from because a "downer" insisted on putting "unnecessary" filters on the cooling towers. Yup. I'm all for choices and progress. But I don't have to be naive as well. Andy Sorry but I think you are looking at the BlueRail Trains video from the point of view of someone who is just looking for something to criticise. BlueRail are not claiming that their unique and innovative selling point is being able to operate your layout from one hundred feet away. The video was posted to answer a concern and criticism by a few, that Bluetooth as a communications medium did not provide either the signal strength or reliability to allow for operation of some larger layouts. What the video was intended to show was that the new Bluetooth protocol implemented had the necessary technical attributes to suit both large and small layouts. If as you rightly point out a new piece of tech is to prove warranted, then it should at least provide a marked improvement or feature set that offers a bang for buck benefit over it's contemporaries. BlueRails USP, if you want to call it that, is that when compared against DCC. It offers comparable operating features to higher spec'd DCC systems (i.e remote wireless control), but at a noticeably lower cost in terms of required equipment and technical know how on the part of the user. I am constantly aware of a growing number of people in all sorts of area's who seem to use their "ownership" of technology as some form of badge of office. I daresay there are a few in the DCC camp who are more than happy to dismiss the idea of Bluetooth control as unwarranted, unnecessary and lacking in something or other, in an attempt to preserve their little niche within the community. Products evolve through a somewhat haphazzard reaction between consumer needs and wants,couples with commercial imperative. Agreed leaded petrol was a bad idea. But at the time the motor car hit the mass market, informed opinion was not aware of the effects that lead in petrol would have fifty or so years down the road (after all we where using lead pipes to deliver water to houses also at that time). Wholesale improvements to our standards of living can't be made on a first past the post mentality. That would be like saying that someone has invented a perfectly acceptable polio vaccine so there is no requirement to develop a better one. Maybe all the model railway manufacturers should have stuck with the same moulds and presses they used way back when. After all we where perfectly happy to buy all those Hornby, Lima, Mainline and whatever loco's back then? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
deadlyduck Posted March 6, 2015 Share Posted March 6, 2015 Hey i dont understand all the negativity about this its not even had the chance to be evaluated.Are we the same nation that has given so much new technology to the world.Bachmann has done a lot for modellers world wide.Lets just see now far this new idea takes us.We can then evaluate it in a proper manner 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Reichert Posted March 6, 2015 Share Posted March 6, 2015 Hey i dont understand all the negativity about this its not even had the chance to be evaluated.Are we the same nation that has given so much new technology to the world.Bachmann has done a lot for modellers world wide.Lets just see now far this new idea takes us.We can then evaluate it in a proper manner Precisely. It hasn't been evaluated! Yet the opposite, totally positive, mere speculation and hoped for later inclusions are flowing out here like water over the Niagara Falls. What happened to reason and wait and see? Andy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oakydoke Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 Most people seem to be missing the point about this type of system's key benefit. I.e. The cost saving of not needing to buy a control system (e.g. DCC). Not much use if you already have a DCC system, but for anyone starting out or converting from DC, this would be a significant saving. The control system is the app and if they do give away the app for free, that is going to be a very attractive proposition. Assuming the thing works properly and has all the functionality designed in from the beginning. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
davetheroad Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 Most people seem to be missing the point about this type of system's key benefit. I.e. The cost saving of not needing to buy a control system (e.g. DCC). Not much use if you already have a DCC system, but for anyone starting out or converting from DC, this would be a significant saving. The control system is the app and if they do give away the app for free, that is going to be a very attractive proposition. Assuming the thing works properly and has all the functionality designed in from the beginning. The DCC hardware manufacturers will be taking a keen interest as they will percieve it as a threat to their future customer base. At the moment it looks as if the Bachmann app will not be sending DCC commands to the loco receiver.If it ever did you would only need a regulated power supply to the track, make that AC/DC and you could use any commercial power supply, blowing the DCC manufacturers out of the water.. If the system gains acceptance they will start charging for the app . I myself prefer tactile knobs, buttons and switches to touch screens, maybe someone can connect a knob to an android device so you can look at the train while you move the throttle, one handed! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oakydoke Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 I myself prefer tactile knobs, buttons and switches to touch screens, maybe someone can connect a knob to an android device so you can look at the train while you move the throttle, one handed! See post 160 on page 7, where Ron has posted some links to examples of various accessories that can be added to smartphones and tablets. The ESU handset shown is a dedicated DCC throttle using Android as it's operating system. The DCC manufacturers, or others, could start producing suitable clip on accessories or dedicated Bluetooth handsets. You could start off using your own touch device and then either add such an accessory, or buy a dedicated handset when funds permitted. I'm surprised no one has yet started producing such accessories for DCC operation using smartphones! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
deadlyduck Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 If the technology is available n the will of the modellers are with it anything is possible.Its a know fact that be dont like change but like it or not if the will is there it will happen.DCC itself is a common 1.Remember when railways (in the flesh) appeared o my the devil had awoken spitting out fire there was going to be some awefull retrebutions.Well we are still here.Why dont we embrace everything until such time as the powers that be give us a proper review into any new system be it blue tooth black tooth or whatever.No one on here is in a position to judge something they know little or nothing of.Lets have a little patience it might be that we can see a new way of running our layouts that will be easier on the eye the hands n the pocket Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
davetheroad Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 If the technology is available n the will of the modellers are with it anything is possible.Its a know fact that be dont like change but like it or not if the will is there it will happen.DCC itself is a common 1.Remember when railways (in the flesh) appeared o my the devil had awoken spitting out fire there was going to be some awefull retrebutions.Well we are still here.Why dont we embrace everything until such time as the powers that be give us a proper review into any new system be it blue tooth black tooth or whatever.No one on here is in a position to judge something they know little or nothing of.Lets have a little patience it might be that we can see a new way of running our layouts that will be easier on the eye the hands n the pocket If you have a free app generating the commands, bluetooth or whatever providing the link and the receiving chip is the same price as a DCC one that is easier on the pocket!. Use batteries rather than track power and you simplify wiring to the point of not having any! IMO the Bachmann system is not aimed at existing DCC users but newcomers to the hobby or those contemplating moving on from DC. I am in the second group, building a new layout and not liking wiring/control panels led me to radio control/battery power. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Reichert Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 If you have a free app generating the commands, bluetooth or whatever providing the link and the receiving chip is the same price as a DCC one that is easier on the pocket!. Use batteries rather than track power and you simplify wiring to the point of not having any! IMO the Bachmann system is not aimed at existing DCC users but newcomers to the hobby or those contemplating moving on from DC. I am in the second group, building a new layout and not liking wiring/control panels led me to radio control/battery power. If you want total simplicity, why the interest in something as complicated as correctly working models of trains? Andy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
davetheroad Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 If you want total simplicity, why the interest in something as complicated as correctly working models of trains? Andy It is a hobby Andy, people do it for different reasons. It helps pass the time. i like doing stuff that is a little different. I have a railway background, my grandfather was a LMS driver. If i wanted a correctly working steam loco i would be running large scale live steam. It is all about the suspension of disbelief.I don't even paint my track and it does not bother me. i like running models of engines that my grandfather drove. anyway, back to the topic. Bachmann using software to generate commands for loco control may be a savvy move. they don't have to develop any hardware other than the receiver board and that uses industry standard bluetooth for communication. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Reichert Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 My Grandfather drove for the LNER, probably even pre-grouping. So we have that in common. I don't have more details, as he died before I was even born. But I personally prefer electric traction, and working models as more interesting that their prototypes. Andy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
davetheroad Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 My Grandfather drove for the LNER, probably even pre-grouping. So we have that in common. I don't have more details, as he died before I was even born. But I personally prefer electric traction, and working models as more interesting that their prototypes. Andy Do you use overhead power collection!. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Reichert Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 Do you use overhead power collection!. Yes, but I use 2-rail as well. Andy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oakydoke Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 The battery power issue is a distraction in this topic. It appears it will be an option with this new Bluetooth based system, but is already an option with DCC, but it's a bit of a sideshow IMHO. The whole quest for battery solutions has been very eloquently debunked in a very good post made on the Model Railroad Hobbyist forum a month or two back. Unless you really need battery power (e.g. Garden railways or some difficult application), direct communication (wireless) control systems are much better served by a simple pure DC or re-used DCC power supply and the employment of simple stay alive circuits. Stacking up the pro's and con's, battery power has only a few pro's but comes with a long list of con's. The track power option is the opposite. If I can find that post, I'll post a link. It provides a very compelling argument. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grovenor Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 anyway, back to the topic. Bachmann using software to generate commands for loco control may be a savvy move. they don't have to develop any hardware other than the receiver board and that uses industry standard bluetooth for communication. They don't have to develop any hardware at all (or software) since they are outsourcing it. Regards Keith Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Colin_McLeod Posted March 22, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 22, 2015 (edited) And so as not to overlook just a few examples of new exciting technologies that we should have not implemented so quickly and over-confidently. Remember .......the unsinkable Titanic? Andy It was not new technology that caused the Titanic tragedy. Its sister ships sailed for many years before being scrapped . As they say in Belfast "She was all right when she left here" Edited March 22, 2015 by Colin_McLeod Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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