Entry Level DCC Controller - URGENT

[YK 50A]

Hi all,

 

My older children have gone away with their Mum for a few days, so I took the opportunity to finish wiring my son's train set.  It was temporarily wired and worked fine, but now all the sidings are live regardless of which way the points are thrown, there's a switched and isolated programming track, all the points are motorised, the droppers are wired in, etc.

 

Before I moved out into the garden, I was DC cab control so my knowledge of DCC is limited, although I wish I'd got into it years ago.  Anyway, I got a Select as part of a job lot, I knew it was rubbish.  It was always on the list to replace, but it mostly did what it was supposed to, although with hindsight, I wonder about it's reliability, resetting for no apparent reason, as if there had been a short, but there was no short.  What might be a blessing in disguise is that it has packed in.  I don't have a multimeter but so far as I can tell there is nothing getting to the track.  If I deliberately short the track, the Select doesn't recognise it, and I have tested the locomotives on DC and all but 2 are fine (and their decoders might not be DC compatible).

 

But...  I need to get a replacement ASAP, my son is back on Friday.  I know there is no such thing as 'best' but what might be most suitable would be a good starting point.  Looking at the market for under £100 (and what can be delivered in time), I have found an NCE Power Cab starter set (described as O gauge, presumably irrelevant), Roco 10810 Multimaus, Lenz Compact 60500, Lenz Compact LH30 and Bachmann Dynamis.  I would go down the Power Cab route but it's a big handset for small hands and I like the compact nature of the Roco and Lens, and wireless capabilities of the Dynamis.  I don't need anything clever with accessories as everything is controlled from a 'ground frame', although reading and programming CVs would be useful.  I could do with buying one NOW so any help would be appreciated.

 

Thanks in anticipation,

 

Alun

 

*** EDIT - incorrect terminology! ***

[Ray H]

I thought that the PowerCab was more like £130 but I may be wrong.

 

I have a PowerCab and am pleased with it. It seems t do what I want and what it doesn't is probably because DCC isn't configured that way generally.

 

I don't have any experience of other systems, sorry.

[Junctionmad]

Nce powercab is a good start , it does what it says on the tin

[Nigelcliffe]

Of those you've listed,  two I'd consider and two I'd reject:

 

PowerCab.  Usually £130-150 new, a good system, but handset is a bit big. 

Roco Multimaus.  Also good, handset much more suited to smaller hands.  Now officially obsolete, but only recently retired.  Compatible with a variety of other systems should an upgrade happen in future.   Upgrade path to Roco Z21/z21 might be worth thinking about should it be needed in future, this will work with the MultiMaus and also has smartphones as controlling devices. 

 

Lenz Compact (all the models mentioned).  Antiques. Discontinued ages (10 years?) ago.   Fine in their day, don't buy one now.

Bachmann Dynamis.  Discontinued.  Due to be replaced with new version which might fix all the annoyances of the old one.  Or might not.  Personally, I'd avoid that as well.

 

 

If the shop really has a MultiMaus, I think I'd select that for your stated needs. 

[Ron Ron Ron]

As the PowerCab may be a bit too big and maybe a little complicated for "young hands", I'd say go for a MultiMaus, if you can get hold of one in time.

If you do, make sure you are buying the complete system and not just the handset, as it won't be of any use otherwise.

The Roco 10810 you mention is just the handset.

 

There are often brand new MultiMaus sets sold on eBay, usually from Germany, which have been split from new train sets.

Make sure it has the Amplifier (Booster), Power Supply, cables and instruction manual.

 

The handset is comfortable in the hand, very easy to use and not complicated.

Note, the MultiMaus system won't be able to read back CV's on its own.

 

Buying from Germany (EU) incurs no import duties or charges. It's just like buying from the UK, but priced in Euros.

Delivery times are generally good.

 

The Lenz Compact is a solid, robust system, but very limited in its functionality e.g. number of functions supported.

It was discontinued about 9 or 10 years ago IIRC, so used examples will be much older than a used MultiMaus.

 

 

.

[DLT]

I came across the Uhlenbrock system on sale at the Basingstoke show recently:  http://www.aandhmodels.co.uk/uhlenbrock-dcc-digital-748-c.asp

I can't tell you much about it apart from the fact that I was very impressed by the handset.  Its a lot slimmer than the NCE, is less of a button-fest, and has a nice big knob for speed control.

It felt really nice in the hand and would be highly suitable for smaller persons.

Cheers, Dave.

[Ron Ron Ron]

Roco Multimaus.  Also good, handset much more suited to smaller hands.  Now officially obsolete, but only recently retired.

 

While the MultiMaus system has been discontinued, the MultiMaus handset (art. 10810) hasn't been and is still sold by Roco and promoted as an add on (extra throttle) for the Z21/z21 and for the discontinued MultiMaus and MultiZentral Control systems.

 

 

Upgrade path to Roco Z21/z21 might be worth thinking about should it be needed in future, this will work with the MultiMaus and also has smartphones as controlling devices.

 

That's a very useful point and may be worth looking at. 

 

 

Bachmann Dynamis.  Discontinued.  Due to be replaced with new version which might fix all the annoyances of the old one.  Or might not.  Personally, I'd avoid that as well.

The Dynamis has already been replaced.

The replacement Dynamis Ultima is now on general sale and was everywhere on the trade stands at Ally Pally this weekend.

 

Whilst an significant upgrade in terms of functionality and specification, I don't believe it addresses the major issues such as IR reliability or robustness of the joystick.

The handset appears to be unchanged.

 

.

 

.

[Ron Ron Ron]

I came across the Uhlenbrock system on sale at the Basingstoke show recently:  http://www.aandhmodels.co.uk/uhlenbrock-dcc-digital-748-c.asp

 

Unfortunately Dave, it costs more than twice the maximum budget set by the OP.

 

 

 

.

[YK 50A]

Thanks all,

 

The Multimaus is here - there's more than 10 available and although it's touch and go whether it would get here on time, it's 80 quid all in.  As Ron Ron Ron says it's from Germany and split from a set, but is complete, don't suppose it would need more than a UK plug to get it working.

 

Thanks also for pointing out that it won't read CVs, but I think it will programme the basics, acceleration, deceleration etc.

 

I've discounted the Lenz and Dynamis, have to say I would go for the Power Cab if it was for me, but it isn't!

 

Thanks again,

 

Alun

 

*** EDIT - the link didn't work ***

[Ron Ron Ron]

The Multimaus is here - 

 

 

That looks OK.

If you go for it, do re-visit this thread and let us know how you got on.

 

Regards

Ron

 

 

.

[kintbury jon]

Or here in the UK.  Slightly more though it should arrive by Thursday (no deliveries Friday).

 

I offered £85 and it was accepted when I bought from here a few months ago.

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Roco-Multimaus-Complete-DCC-system-/121606420962?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item1c504eb9e2

[YK 50A]

Definitely will Ron!

 

Thanks Jon, I've put in an offer.  Here's a Power Cab for 80 quid, v1.3 (whatever that means functionality and reliability wise).  Don't go gazumping me!  Might be irrelevant if the offer is accepted.

 

Alun

[YK 50A]

Or here in the UK.  Slightly more though it should arrive by Thursday (no deliveries Friday).

 

Offer made and accepted - seems like a nice chap too.  I will be interested to see how the Multimaus improves running and reliability over the Hornby Select.  I'll update the thread after the Easter weekend.

 

Much appreciated,

Alun

[Phil S]

Although described in the Ebay entry as a 'transformer' - the illustration is actually of the newer Switched Mode Power Supply as included in current Starter Sets (Some of which stil come with Multimaus and Amplifier)   This 'plug top' sized version has about 2A rating .. enough for several modern locos to be running at once.

 

EC regulations on energy conservation mean that all such sets now come with the better, lighter, cheaper, more energy efficient, Switched Mode Power Supplies - once old stock of transformers was used up!!    The SMPS is also cheaper to post than a heavy, inefficient transformer !!

 

If / When you eventually fnd it insufficient in future, simply buy an economical 18Vdc 3.5-4A rating 'computer laptop' type power supply with the same standard type of plug.

 

In future:

If you expand 'so much' that you think you want a booster - for a second power district - then simply buy another Multimaus&Amplifier bpackage,  and 4A 18V SMPS power supply ... because Amplifiers can be reused as Boosters without physical modification - just by changing what is plugged in, and in which sockets.   (AS a Booster - DO NOT plug in any controllers into Master/slave sockets - they stay plugged into the 'Master Amplifier', but connect Booster In to Booster In socket between (Master) Amplifier and your 'new booster'

 

The other expansion route, as already mentioned, is the Z21 (black, 260GBP from Hattons) which allows Phones and Tablets to be used. Then you will also discover that the Multimaus CAN be used for reading back CV data if desired ( but not when only plugged into the '764 Amplifier ).

[YK 50A]

Thanks for that, very interesting.  It's my son's train set, it's not much more than a 6' x 4' roundy round, although there's been a bit more thought and attention gone into the wiring, functionality, scenery and what have you than might be the norm for a children's toy - I couldn't help it.  My own ambitions in 4mm are on hold and I've moved into the garden with large scale remote control.  It's rare that there would be more than a couple of trains running simultaneously, perhaps one of them double headed, maybe another locomotive shunting, so four max.

 

I did always wonder about the capacity of the Select as problems almost inevitably occurred with older Tri-ang/Hornby and Airfix origin locomotives (which draw more current) that survive from my own childhood, and have been insulated and had a decoder hard-wired.

 

Regarding reading CVs, I think Ron Ron Ron was saying that the Multimaus won't do it out of the box.  For that kind of money, I could buy a rake of very nice SM32 coaches! 

 

Thanks again,

 

Alun

[Phil S]

'Reading CVs' is greatly overated, and is not necessary ... in fact it slows programming down considerably, as, if reading is enabled, it ALWAYS (tries to) read back the existing value, before allowing writing.... but if you want to put a new value in, just writing without bothering to read is almost instantaneous!

No readback also makes it easier to program unpowered-'dummy'-locos like the Driving Trailer Car of DMUs /HSTs etc

 

If you DO want to read and collect CV numbers, then the optimum solution is a SPROG ... connected to a computer, and running JMRI (free software) Decoder Pro .... keeping it where you maintain your locos.

 

The most popular CVs can be accessed with a simple short cut for each on the Multimaus of MENU + 1/2/3/4/5 for CVs 1-5

(The other step you can use on the Multimaus, is to shorten the default 5 seconds you hold the button to enter the Menu ! ... make it just 1 second)

 

With the exception of CV1, you can also use Programming-on-Main which gives no feedback with any system (except, perhaps RAilcom fitted ???)

The 'side effect' of not having a 'Programming Track Output' is that you need to remove OTHER locos freom the track, or electrically switch off the track, leaving just a short section earmarked for programming. 

 

To this day (including the MultimausPro wireless version) there is an 'error' (of ommision) in the manual when it tells you that you can have upto 64 locos in the library (5 Characters each name) ... it implies (states) that CV1 is used, but it can be ANY address, short or long for any loco in the library.

 

The easiest way of programming a Long Address (it appears as such in the Programming Menu), is to have selected the new number to be the current loco BEFORE entering the Programming Menu ... then it will OFFER that number when you cursor across to 'LONG' (usually after you set CV>...29, to 38 instead of 6). You will then also be able to test it as soon as you come out of programming mode with STOP STOP...

 

You also mention running in a garden ... we use the Roco handet and ampliifiers for G-Scale LGB too .... on our portable layouts, where the track is level, and we can run multiple locos with sound!  In the garden we do use a more powereful sytem without wires to trip over !

 

Finally: The Select COULD have its output increased to 4A  ... in the same way as  with the Roco/Multimaus/Amplifier ... by buying the optional, high power power supply (from Hornby or elsewhere..  If you have old Tri-ang /Hornby stock, it can be a double advantage to replace the chassis and motor with a more modern version - lower current > cheaper decoder, and better wheel standards > better running on many tracks.

[DLT]

Unfortunately Dave, it costs more than twice the maximum budget set by the OP.

.

Yes well, we never got as far as discussing price!

[YK 50A]

'Reading CVs' is greatly overated, and is not necessary ... in fact it slows programming down considerably, as, if reading is enabled, it ALWAYS (tries to) read back the existing value, before allowing writing.... but if you want to put a new value in, just writing without bothering to read is almost instantaneous!

No readback also makes it easier to program unpowered-'dummy'-locos like the Driving Trailer Car of DMUs /HSTs etc

 

If you DO want to read and collect CV numbers, then the optimum solution is a SPROG ... connected to a computer, and running JMRI (free software) Decoder Pro .... keeping it where you maintain your locos.

 

The most popular CVs can be accessed with a simple short cut for each on the Multimaus of MENU + 1/2/3/4/5 for CVs 1-5

(The other step you can use on the Multimaus, is to shorten the default 5 seconds you hold the button to enter the Menu ! ... make it just 1 second)

 

With the exception of CV1, you can also use Programming-on-Main which gives no feedback with any system (except, perhaps RAilcom fitted ???)

The 'side effect' of not having a 'Programming Track Output' is that you need to remove OTHER locos freom the track, or electrically switch off the track, leaving just a short section earmarked for programming. 

 

To this day (including the MultimausPro wireless version) there is an 'error' (of ommision) in the manual when it tells you that you can have upto 64 locos in the library (5 Characters each name) ... it implies (states) that CV1 is used, but it can be ANY address, short or long for any loco in the library.

 

The easiest way of programming a Long Address (it appears as such in the Programming Menu), is to have selected the new number to be the current loco BEFORE entering the Programming Menu ... then it will OFFER that number when you cursor across to 'LONG' (usually after you set CV>...29, to 38 instead of 6). You will then also be able to test it as soon as you come out of programming mode with STOP STOP...

 

You also mention running in a garden ... we use the Roco handet and ampliifiers for G-Scale LGB too .... on our portable layouts, where the track is level, and we can run multiple locos with sound!  In the garden we do use a more powereful sytem without wires to trip over !

 

Finally: The Select COULD have its output increased to 4A  ... in the same way as  with the Roco/Multimaus/Amplifier ... by buying the optional, high power power supply (from Hornby or elsewhere..  If you have old Tri-ang /Hornby stock, it can be a double advantage to replace the chassis and motor with a more modern version - lower current > cheaper decoder, and better wheel standards > better running on many tracks.

 

Hi Phil,

 

Many thanks for that, it is a post I will print out when I've actually got my hands on the controller!  Much like the instructions I've printed out, it'll mean more when we're playing.

 

The reason for going into the garden is that it involves everyone, every inch is taken up in our home and to be honest, having tried to create a piece of the ECML circa 1978 since 1978, a narrow gauge railway somewhere in the UK was very appealing.  I'm going down the radio remote control route.  I sold almost all my collection to get things going - I may regret that one day.

 

Funnily enough, the one locomotive I have problems with is my old Tri-ang Hornby Type 3 and I did buy the newer plastic chassis when the old motor got too long in the tooth.  I think the wide wheels (the centre pairs flop on the stubs) can short on the otherwise dead frog Peco points.  Hornby points have a much more generous 'dead' section.  The worst area is on a Peco setrack curved point and I'm taking the opportunity to put insulated fish plates on the frog rails.  If I have problems in the yard, I might end up wishing I'd hung onto one of my Bachmann 37s.  Bearing in mind the amount track cutting I've done and the problems I've had not insulating points I shouldn't have needed to insulate, not to mention the dead frogs themselves, I wish I'd built his train set with flexi and the short radius streamline points!

 

Alun

[YK 50A]

Hello all,

 

Many thanks for the advice, the Multimaus arrived Thursday and after scratching my head with the instructions a little while, it's quite intuitive.  The shortcuts which Phil refers to above are a godsend and you can access the menu using the shift key, so don't have to wait 5 seconds (or alter the settings) to quickly access everything.  I've had a mess about with the CVs, but need to spend a bit more time with each locomotive individually.  Needless to say, I've activated the child lock!  The slow speed control with the contemporary models is excellent and if anything, the Multimaus shows up the deficiencies of a couple of older chips when compared to the mostly new chips we have.

 

My regret is not insulating the frog rails when I laid the track - I would have done so as a matter of course with live frog points - I just didn't think it was necessary with dead frog points.  I pulled up the station in the early hours of Thursday, the crossovers last night and will be having a crack at the yard and sidings shortly, in time for the glue to set.  There's plenty of droppers, but a few will have to move.  The Hornby Type 3 chassis with it's very coarse wheels, but also a contemporary Hornby Duchess with it's long and semi rigid wheelbase are the worst offenders for shorts, the chip on the former burnt out as it exited the yard.  I'll hard-wire a replacement this afternoon.

 

I went down the setrack route as I thought it would be easier, but with hindsight I should have gone with what I know.  I pity parents who buy a trainset for Christmas, without some experience in this hobby, I wonder how much chance they have.

 

Alun

[tractor_37260]

Hello all,

 

Many thanks for the advice, the Multimaus arrived Thursday and after scratching my head with the instructions a little while, it's quite intuitive.  The shortcuts which Phil refers to above are a godsend and you can access the menu using the shift key, so don't have to wait 5 seconds (or alter the settings) to quickly access everything.  I've had a mess about with the CVs, but need to spend a bit more time with each locomotive individually.  Needless to say, I've activated the child lock!  The slow speed control with the contemporary models is excellent and if anything, the Multimaus shows up the deficiencies of a couple of older chips when compared to the mostly new chips we have.

 

My regret is not insulating the frog rails when I laid the track - I would have done so as a matter of course with live frog points - I just didn't think it was necessary with dead frog points.  I pulled up the station in the early hours of Thursday, the crossovers last night and will be having a crack at the yard and sidings shortly, in time for the glue to set.  There's plenty of droppers, but a few will have to move.  The Hornby Type 3 chassis with it's very coarse wheels, but also a contemporary Hornby Duchess with it's long and semi rigid wheelbase are the worst offenders for shorts, thechip on the former burnt out as it exited the yard.  I'll hard-wire a replacement this afternoon.

I went down the setrack route as I thought it would be easier, but with hindsight I should have gone with what I know.  I pity parents who buy a trainset for Christmas, without some experience in this hobby, I wonder how much chance they have.

 

Alun

Alun

 

The Roco Multimaus system was a good choice for the money, it's very easy to use and fits in one's hand nicely.  I've used one with a Lenz system for a number of years, it's also great for controlling sound fitted locos, apart from the fact it can't access F keys above F12 even if the latest V1.04 firmware is installed.

 

As for the track, very few get it right first time, it's all a learning game, anyone that never made a mistake never made anything !

 

Enjoy !

[totonlover]

NCE powercab definitely having tried the Dynamis with its skitty infrared control losing signal and lack of cv read function, Powercab in my stall now and works well

[Phil S]

Tractor wrote (about the Multimaus and 1.04)

 

The Roco Multimaus system was a good choice for the money, it's very easy to use and fits in one's hand nicely.  I've used one with a Lenz system for a number of years, it's also great for controlling sound fitted locos, apart from the fact it can't access F keys above F12 even if the latest V1.04 firmware is installed.

 

Phil:  I'm puzzled by this statement - as, with My Multimauses, I have no problem with accessing F0-20  (Shift giving 11-20) ... but then I'm using the Multimaus as MASTER.  If your limitation because of being a SLAVE controller to a Lenz Central Unit ???    Also, V1.03 software is the most recent ROCO s/w provided on the Roco website. (Roco.cc >> Digital Controllers > Multimaus > Downloads)

 

(User of Multiple Multimauses, and Multimaus Pros with the standard amplifier '764 and the MultiCentralPro, for H0/00 and G,  as well as Massoth Navigatorsr/Dimax for G with gradients (8A limit)

[tractor_37260]

 

 

Phil:  I'm puzzled by this statement - as, with My Multimauses, I have no problem with accessing F0-20  (Shift giving 11-20) ... but then I'm using the Multimaus as MASTER.  If your limitation because of being a SLAVE controller to a Lenz Central Unit ???    Also, V1.03 software is the most recent ROCO s/w provided on the Roco website. (Roco.cc >> Digital Controllers > Multimaus > Downloads)

 

 

 

Phil

       My Multimaus is V1.02, and when originally used with the Roco amp it could access up to F20.  However, I sold on the Roco Amp etc, and now only use it with a Lenz LZV100, which only gives access to F Keys 0-12. I recently had my LH100 serviced by A & H Models, and asked at the time, if updating the firmware on the Multimaus would enable F0 - F20 to be used (with the Lenz) but sadly not the case, even with the very latest firmware, which I think ? was referred to as V1.04 ? 

 

Ken

[YK 50A]

I finished isolating the frog rails on all the points, moved the droppers, etc, and had chance to have a proper play.  We've both got to know the handset better, activated POM and been editing the CVs for each locomotive.  We had one glitch when locomotives sprung into life for no reason, but that stopped after a restart.  Even my Airfix Brush Type 2 which must be 40 years old runs great.  We went to the York Model Railway Show today and quite a few of the exhibitors had Multimaus handsets; it was good advice.

 

As for the track, very few get it right first time, it's all a learning game, anyone that never made a mistake never made anything !

 

Thing is, I've already made my mistakes with live frog points and I thought I could take short cuts with dead frogs.  Now I've isolated the frog rails and the polarity switches clearly work fine, I'm wondering about making the frogs live with conductive paint.

 

V1.03 software is the most recent ROCO s/w provided on the Roco website. (Roco.cc >> Digital Controllers > Multimaus > Downloads)

 

Out of interest, is there anyway of checking what firmware is installed?

 

Thanks,

 

Alun

[Ron Ron Ron]

.....Out of interest, is there anyway of checking what firmware is installed?

 

 

Settings Menu - Infos - Software

 

Pg 46 and 52 of the User Manual    

 

 

.