Gresley standard underframe - standard fittings go where?

[Western Star]

I am building a Gresley D115 Corridor Third from a Just Like The Real Thing 7mm kit - some of the fittings, such as the dynamo, are "handed" with respect to the body. Suppose that you are looking at the corridor side of the coach...

 

[1] is the (bulbous end of the) dynamo to the left of centre? (or to the right of centre?)

 

[2] is the emergency brake gear (on the roof) to the left? (or to the right?)

 

Can anyone provide a reference to a picture of a D115 which provides answers? And hopefully shows the shape and location of the water tank piepwork.

 

thank you in anticipation, Graham Beare

[Boris]

Bearing in mind that's it's a fair old time since I've seen 23896, this may be complete gibberish, but here goes. If I remember correctly the dynamo goes on the right hand side of the coach as you look at it facing the corridor side, with the nosecone facing the viewer, the pulley being towards the centre of the vehicle. As to the flag for the communication cord (emergency brake gear), IIRC this is at the bog end of most LNER coaches. But I think it's at the opposite end to the dynamo on a TK?

[Western Star]

If I remember correctly the dynamo goes on the right hand side of the coach as you look at it facing the corridor side, with the nosecone facing the viewer, the pulley being towards the centre of the vehicle. As to the flag for the communication cord (emergency brake gear), this is at the bog end of most LNER coaches. But I think it's at the opposite end to the dynamo on a TK?

 

First the good news... I ought to have realised that the lugs on the edges of the floor pan were not casting sprues, the give away was the notches in the bottom of the carriage sides. The floor and sides have locating notches / lugs so that the sides are assembled "the correct way round" with respect to the bits and pieces which are attached to the underframe. Once the sides and floor are orientated by the notches and lugs then the roof falls into place as a consequence of the location of the screws (one screw at each end of the coach and placed off of the centre line).

 

Now the better news... When the carriage is assembled as above then the dynamo and the flag gear come out as described above. Or - since there are two toilets in a D115 Third - the flag gear is at the opposite end to the dynamo.

 

This still leaves a little question - what does a Gresley "water tank filler" and pipework look like?

 

Oh - and what are the small cheese wedges on the roof, at the point where the roof curves down towards the coach end?

 

thank you, Graham Beare

[Boris]

 

 

Now the better news... When the carriage is assembled as above then the dynamo and the flag gear come out as described above. Or - since there are two toilets in a D115 Third - the flag gear is at the opposite end to the dynamo.

 

This still leaves a little question - what does a Gresley "water tank filler" and pipework look like?

 

Oh - and what are the small cheese wedges on the roof, at the point where the roof curves down towards the coach end?

 

thank you, Graham Beare

 

How long do you mind waiting for the water filler details, if you can wait a few days I'll climb on the roof of one and take some photos for you! I think the wedges in the roof may be something to do with the springs for the buffing plate, off hand that's about all that I can think they are.

[Western Star]

How long do you mind waiting for the water filler details, if you can wait a few days I'll climb on the roof of one and take some photos for you! I think the wedges in the roof may be something to do with the springs for the buffing plate, off hand that's about all that I can think they are.

 

Thank you for this offer and yes please.

 

Which coach can you photograph and where is it located?

 

Whilst pointing the camera at things, might you look at the pipe work which is associated with the vacuum cylinders and the reservoirs? The connections between those items do not feature on any scale drawings which I have nor are published photos clear enough for such detail In fact, is there anything like a Direct Admission Valve hiding under the floor anywhere? As this is a 7mm model then I would like to include the hoses and pipes wherever possible.

 

Thank you and best wishes, Graham

[MikeTrice]

If you really want an underframe drawing showing all fittings you need the MJT drawing available from Dart Castings. Shows all rivets and nuts and bolts as well to a scale of 12mm/1ft.

 

See http://www.dartcastings.co.uk/mjt/2980.php

 

Will try and sort out some photos later.

[MikeTrice]

Hope these help although none are D115.

[Western Star]

If you really want an underframe drawing showing all fittings you need the MJT drawing available from Dart Castings. Shows all rivets and nuts and bolts as well to a scale of 12mm/1ft.

 

 

Yes, I agree... I sent my cheque more than two weeks ago - the Dart website does say that delivery is within 21 days and so I could have another week to wait.

 

Thank you, Graham

[Western Star]

Hope these help although none are D115.

 

Thank you for these excellent pictures, they answer many questions along the lines of "what" is "where". What can you say about the identities and locations of the coaches?

 

I am pleased to see that some of the pictures show handrails to have been fitted adjacent to the tank filler - where such handrails fitted from new? (and if the answer depends upon date, then our models are of Gresley coaches built in the mid 1930s, on angle underframe, as running in the period 1945-1950).

 

Now that I know what I am looking for I feel that there are no tank fillers in any of the five kits which we have purchased. In case I have to make some, might anyone know the diameter and height of the filler?

 

Many thanks, Graham Beare

[MikeTrice]

What can you say about the identities and locations of the coaches?

In will try and give you more information although the images are quite old so I am going by memory:

 

1)Teak train Pickering NYMR

2)Teak train Pickering NYMR

3)? probably NYMR

4)NYMR

5)Castle Headingham, probably a brake vehicle

6)Bewdley SVR probably D186 open third

7)NYMR prabably D167

8)D27A chassis at Mangapps Farm Museum. Coach scrapped but I believe underframe went to Llangollen

 

where such handrails fitted from new? (and if the answer depends upon date, then our models are of Gresley coaches built in the mid 1930s, on angle underframe, as running in the period 1945-1950).

Yes the handrails were there from new. The end step (the wedge on the roof) is to provide access for the crews to get on the roof to fill the water tanks. During the late 30's end pipes we fitted to the carriages so that the tanks could be filled from the platforms. The MJT underframe drawing mentioned previously is for a turnbuckle type although the fittings were virtually identical so pipe runs etc should match.

 

might anyone know the diameter and height of the filler?

The filler cap is mounted on a 7" diameter by 1" wooden spacer. The cap itself is has a 6.5" diameter flange with the "nut" being 5" across flats. There is a 1" diameter hoop on top to take a securing chain and the whole unit from root to top of loop is 4.625" in height. To save you asking the handrails are 18" long and spaced 24" from the centre line of the roof. Sorry cannot read the diameter of the handles. The end filler pipes when fitted are 1" outside diameter.

[MikeTrice]

Found this image of the Sleeper section at the NRM. This shows the filler complete with the eyelet on the top for the chain. This seems to be missing from a lot of preserved vehicles.

 

[Western Star]

 

The end step (the wedge on the roof) is to provide access for the crews to get on the roof to fill the water tanks. During the late 30's end pipes we fitted to the carriages so that the tanks could be filled from the platforms.

 

The filler cap is mounted on a 7" diameter by 1" wooden spacer. The cap itself is has a 6.5" diameter flange with the "nut" being 5" across flats. There is a 1" diameter hoop on top to take a securing chain and the whole unit from root to top of loop is 4.625" in height. To save you asking the handrails are 18" long and spaced 24" from the centre line of the roof. Sorry cannot read the diameter of the handles. The end filler pipes when fitted are 1" outside diameter.

 

To Mike Trice:-

 

Many thanks for the additional photographs and dimensions of the fillers and handrails - I was going to ask....

 

If end pipes were added for filling the tanks towards the end of the 1930s then that process must have been rather slow as Roye England photographed two adjacent D115 coaches circa 1952 and there are no such pipes visible in the photograph.

 

I follow your description of the filler cap as above; does the centre of the cap rotate within the nut so that the nut can be undone without getting kinks and nots in the chain?

 

The photo of the dynamo helps me to understand what ought to be there... might you have a broadside view which illustrates [a] the tensioning spring and the plce where thge cables enter the casing?

 

thank you with regards, Graham Beare

[MikeTrice]

I follow your description of the filler cap as above; does the centre of the cap rotate within the nut so that the nut can be undone without getting kinks and nots in the chain?

 

OK, I lied. Having re-examined the specs the hexagonal nut is the clamp for the inlet pipe. In normal use a pressed steel circular 5.75 inch diameter "cap" is located over the hexagonal nut. It is this that has the eyelet and chain attached and yes, the eyelet does rotate. The cap just lifts off.

 

might you have a broadside view which illustrates [a] the tensioning spring and the plce where thge cables enter the casing?

 

Do these help?

 

 

 

Bare in mind that there are other dynamo systems such as the Vickers which I think uses a spring to tension.

[coachmann]

There's a lot going on under those floors Mike. Glad you posted those pictures. You wouldn't happen to have pictures of the inner turnbuckle trussrods would you? I have to remove and refit the V-hangers and vacuum cylinders on the Hornby coaches when MJT turnbuckle trussrods are fitted and so it would be handy to see how things fell together on the prototype.

 

Also interesting to see the lav water fillers were offset from the roof centreline.

 

Larry

[Western Star]

 

Also interesting to see the lav water fillers were offset from the roof centreline.

 

Larry

 

This is a very interesting observation and one for which I welcome feedback from others, hopefully Mike will comment.

 

Each of the coaches in Mike's photographs have the water filler located "off-centre" with the ventilators "on-centre" - is that the expected norm for a Gresley carriage which was built in the 1920s and 1930s? I ask because the JLTRT kits include templates for positioning the ventialtors and fillers on the roof and the tank fillers are shown as being in line with the ventilators (which are shown as being on the centreline of the coach). In the same area, what is the expected norm for the number and placing of the tank overflow pipes? And why more than one of those at each end?

 

And to be really cheeky - has anyone a picture of a LNER "Cooking dynamo" as fitted to the "electric" Restaurant and Buffet carriages?

 

thank you, Graham

[Western Star]

Having re-examined the specs the hexagonal nut is the clamp for the inlet pipe. In normal use a pressed steel circular 5.75 inch diameter "cap" is located over the hexagonal nut. It is this that has the eyelet and chain attached and yes, the eyelet does rotate. The cap just lifts off.

 

The photos which you have posted, thank you, show the tank fillers on three different coaches... if I have understood your description here then the photo which is closest to your description would appear to be the most recent post, that of a coach at the NRM. The early photos appear to be different to the above, maybe because some part of the original fitting has been replaced?

 

The photos of the dynamo mountings are very helpful and I am pleased to see that the components on the workbench are "JLTRT".

 

thank you, Graham

[MikeTrice]

You wouldn't happen to have pictures of the inner turnbuckle trussrods would you?

 

Any use?

 

 

 

 

 

 

[MikeTrice]

has anyone a picture of a LNER "Cooking dynamo" as fitted to the "electric" Restaurant and Buffet carriages?

 

Blimey, can hardly keep up.

 

Heavy duty Stone's dynamo (two types I think):

 

 

 

 

A lot of preserved coaches now have BR dynamos as the original Lilliput's cannot generate sufficient current at typical preserved line speeds.

[MikeTrice]

if I have understood your description here then the photo which is closest to your description would appear to be the most recent post, that of a coach at the NRM. The early photos appear to be different to the above, maybe because some part of the original fitting has been replaced?

 

The round covers are missing. NRM is as it should be.

[Western Star]

 

Heavy duty Stone's dynamo (two types I think):

 

 

 

 

A lot of preserved coaches now have BR dynamos as the original Lilliput's cannot generate sufficient current at typical preserved line speeds.

 

Wonderful stuff!!! Is there a cover missing from the end of the Stone's dynamo which is hanging from an underframe?

 

Here is a reference to a D167 on a photo site:-

 

Is this a Stone's dynamo like one of those which you have posted earlier?

 

with grateful thanks, Graham

[ozzyo]

Question, why do you think that the big nut type thing is for filling the tank?

If you look at the photo of the third with the door open you can see the tank filler buy the buffer.

Also how would the staff get on to the roof to replenish the tank? Crampons!! As all the photos have not shown any end steps. Its bad enough that the butterflies are in a bad position, not in view just buy looking down the train.

 

OzzyO

 

 

[ozzyo]

If end pipes were added for filling the tanks towards the end of the 1930s then that process must have been rather slow as Roye England photographed two adjacent D115 coaches circa 1952 and there are no such pipes visible in the photograph.

 

Graham, do the two coaches have the lavs next to each other? The roof vents that look like upturned Js are vents for the water tanks one will be for the cold tank and one will be for the hot tank. The big nut will be for inspection purposes.

 

OzzyO

 

PS in the photo of the 3rd with the door open you will see two chains, the shorter one is for the shackle/saddle on the buffer, it is now in the long position, when in the short position it will live on the 'brown' block by the end of the chain. The longer chain is for releasing the buckeye coupling when it is in the UP position.

[Boris]

Question, why do you think that the big nut type thing is for filling the tank?

If you look at the photo of the third with the door open you can see the tank filler buy the buffer.

Also how would the staff get on to the roof to replenish the tank? Crampons!! As all the photos have not shown any end steps. Its bad enough that the butterflies are in a bad position, not in view just buy looking down the train.

 

There's always one smart alec isn't there?

 

Either a) a tank filler or B) a tank inspection hatch is all that would logically be up there. They are obviously designed for somebody to get up there and look at, the grab handles in some of the photographs are a bit of a giveaway. Conceivably if the toilet was to be replenished in a hurry a higher pressure hose inserted through said hole would be fcar faster than filling the smaller diameter filling pipe.

 

As to roof access, if I may refer you to the standard brakevan equipment, this includes the provision of an extending ladder. It is also quite likely as carriages were in the past gas lit that stations could have had ladders for staff to get on coach roofs to service said lamps. If all else fails, when you have two vehicles like this with a pullman gangway it is extremely easy to climb onto the roof using lamps irons and pipework, trust me I have done this on Gresley stock.

 

As to comments about the visibility of the butterfly, does it really matter, on a 14 coach rake of mark 1 stock it is fairly hard to look out of the window and spot a 2 inch diameter piece of metal that is invariably covered in crap from any distance away. Walking through the train, any pulled communication cord sounds like some form of demented hoover from the air inrush and can be heard very clearly from 2 coaches away inside the train. The fact that the chain is then hanging down where is was pulled and is impossible to re-pack then allows you to isolate where the cord was pulled. The puller can then be identified by the black imprint from the crud on the chain accross their hands. Resetting is an even simpler matter, walking through to the vestibule end under the butterfly reveals a little box on the ceiling locked on a carriage key, inside this box is a lever to reset the butterfly without ever having to monkey up onto the roof - and yes this is an original fitting not a preservation addition. Also, this can be used as an internal telltale if the driver has shut off the exhauster/ejector.

[ozzyo]

There's always one smart alec isn't there?

 

OK i will acepte that in theory but if you stopped at say York the filling pipes would be in the six foot not on the platform side. Also in your next paragraph you mention the extending ladder, this was to be used in Emergence's only. To use this you would have to unstrap it and then get it into place then get some sort of water supply, also get someone that would go up the ladder, in this time the 'shunter that was in the 6' has dun it and one or two more coaches as well. Also the man in the 6' has the advantage that if the train moves the pipe will uncouple with out him having to do anything.

As to roof access, if I may refer you to the standard brake van equipment, this includes the provision of an extending ladder. It is also quite likely as carriages were in the past gas lit that stations could have had ladders for staff to get on coach roofs to service said lamps. If all else fails, when you have two vehicles like this with a Pullman gangway it is extremely easy to climb onto the roof using lamps irons and pipework, trust me I have done this on Gresley stock.

See above about the ladder, tip it has to be back on the train before it can go, as it will not be a full consist.

When did gas light stay in fashen on the railways?

As to comments about the visibility of the butterfly, does it really matter, on a 14 coach rake of mark 1 stock it is fairly hard to look out of the window and spot a 2 inch diameter piece of metal that is invariably covered in crap from any distance away. Walking through the train, any pulled communication cord sounds like some form of demented hoover from the air inrush and can be heard very clearly from 2 coaches away inside the train.

The vac valve is on the out side of the coach and only lets a small amount of air into the train pipe to let the guard and driver know that there is a problem and that the train may be required to stop. The guard may put on a full brake application if he wishes (the guard is in control of the train after all)

 

The fact that the chain is then hanging down where is was pulled and is impossible to re-pack then allows you to isolate where the cord was pulled. The puller can then be identified by the black imprint from the crud on the chain accross their hands. Resetting is an even simpler matter, walking through to the vestibule end under the butterfly reveals a little box on the ceiling locked on a carriage key, inside this box is a lever to reset the butterfly without ever having to monkey up onto the roof - and yes this is an original fitting not a preservation addition. Also, this can be used as an internal telltale if the driver has shut off the exhauster/ejector.

 

Please do tell

[Mod6]

Ozzyo and Boris - I hope this excellent and informative topic can continue without getting confrontational. Cordial and constructive discussion please.