The End of the Yellow Panel

[Rods_of_Revolution]

I was reading through a draft of a railway standard and the wording indicates that yellow panels will no longer be a requirement for a lot of stock.

 

1.2.3.5 - If a train is fitted with front end lamps (head lamps and marker lamps) which do not comply with the requirements set out in the LOC & PAS TSI, then yellow front ends need to be provided to assist the visibility of the train.

 

 

Source here.

 

If this standard is brought into force it suggests that stock with lamps meeting the LOC & PAS TSI requirements will not need a yellow end. Does this mean will we see TOCs and FOCs taking the opportunity to apply their liveries fully to the front ends of their trains? Or will there be a reluctance to change to avoid the criticism that will surely be invoked should a train without a yellow end be involved in an incident?

 

All the best,

 

Jack

[Pete Harvey]

Read all of the sections very carefully, as no where in the sections does it say that the yellow panel is no longer required.

[Fat Controller]

Interesting to see old railway 'lamps' being used instead of 'head-lights' and 'tail-lights', though 'showing' seems to have replaced 'shewing'

[Rods_of_Revolution]

Read all of the sections very carefully, as no where in the sections does it say that the yellow panel is no longer required.

 

It doesn't say that a yellow panel is required for all vehicles, only vehicles which fail to meet the requirements of LOC & PAS TSI. Therefore vehicles with lights that meet the LOC & PAS TSI requirements do not require a yellow warning panel.

 

The content of this appendix is mandatory (when applied in accordance with 3.10.1).

 

 

3.10.1 - Where a vehicle is fitted with front end lamps (head lamps and marker lamps) which do not meet the minimum requirements set out in the LOC & PAS TSI, then yellow front ends, which comply with the requirements contained in Appendix D, shall be provided.

 

 

E.1.2 says:

 

When a non-yellow front end is selected, it will be useful for transport operators to assess the impact of the change to their operations and the effect on other affected parties through a suitable and sufficient risk assessment and adequate consultation.

 

 

So I interpret the document as permitting selection of a non-yellow front end as long as the vehicles meets the minimum requirements of LOC & PAS TSI.

 

All the best,

 

Jack

[28XX]

Like, for example Tornado.......

[Clive Mortimore]

Like, for example Tornado.......

Hi 28xx

 

I seem to recall that yellow panels were first applied to warn PW staff of an oncoming  quiet diesel or electric train, not appiled to steam locos as chuff chuff chuff chuff chuff chuff seemed to work quite well

[Colin_McLeod]

And North Americans use a bell.

[Titan]

I always had the feeling that the yellow panel was a bit of a cop out by a cash strapped British Rail.  Someone probably decided that yellow paint would be adequate compared to the cost of retrofitting proper lamps, especially since the front end needed paint anyway. Of course if the sensible move of fitting diesel and electric locos with proper lamps in the first place had been taken we would not have needed to improve visibility in the first place. Trouble is now we have lamps plenty good enough to render the yellow panel redundant, no one has the guts to abolish the requirement just in case their neck gets put on the line...

[phil-b259]

I always had the feeling that the yellow panel was a bit of a cop out by a cash strapped British Rail.  Someone probably decided that yellow paint would be adequate compared to the cost of retrofitting proper lamps, especially since the front end needed paint anyway. Of course if the sensible move of fitting diesel and electric locos with proper lamps in the first place had been taken we would not have needed to improve visibility in the first place. Trouble is now we have lamps plenty good enough to render the yellow panel redundant, no one has the guts to abolish the requirement just in case their neck gets put on the line...

It's got nothing to do with 'guts' as you put it AND EVERYTHING TO DO WITH THOSE OF US WHO ACTUALLY 'DOGE*' TRAINS FOR A LIVING.

 

As far as I am concerned UNLESS YOU WORK ON OR NEAR the line then you have no right to pass judgement on something I and many others consider an essential safety measure and as I have said elsewhere I am quite willing start an official dispute with union backing to keep them, lights or not

 

(* dodge being shorthand for red zone with unassisted lookouts et)

[Neil]

An interesting development. I fully understand Phil's point re safety, and wonder at the relative safety of working on the line here in the UK and abroad in places like France, where TGV's whistle about at speed sans yellow parts? Having said that I also wonder if there's some sort of ingrained/learned response to a flash of yellow among track workers in the UK and whether removing yellow from the front of trains (even with decent lamps to proper spec) would remove a vital visual cue of danger. I think I'd want to err on the side of safety if I was a union rep or indeed a manager with responsibility for making a decision on the colour of the pointy parts.

[Fat Controller]

An interesting development. I fully understand Phil's point re safety, and wonder at the relative safety of working on the line here in the UK and abroad in places like France, where TGV's whistle about at speed sans yellow parts? Having said that I also wonder if there's some sort of ingrained/learned response to a flash of yellow among track workers in the UK and whether removing yellow from the front of trains (even with decent lamps to proper spec) would remove a vital visual cue of danger. I think I'd want to err on the side of safety if I was a union rep or indeed a manager with responsibility for making a decision on the colour of the pointy parts.

When TGVs whistle along at speed, access to the running lines is very strictly controlled by DPTs (Depeches de Protection des Travaux); even then, there can be accidents with severe consequences, such as the disorientated track workers who arrived at the gate on the wrong side of the track, thought they were covered by the possession, and were run down by a TGV set at full tilt. Three died.

[Titan]

It's got nothing to do with 'guts' as you put it AND EVERYTHING TO DO WITH THOSE OF US WHO ACTUALLY 'DOGE*' TRAINS FOR A LIVING.

 

As far as I am concerned UNLESS YOU WORK ON OR NEAR the line then you have no right to pass judgement on something I and many others consider an essential safety measure and as I have said elsewhere I am quite willing start an official dispute with union backing to keep them, lights or not

 

(* dodge being shorthand for red zone with unassisted lookouts et)

 

My sentinel number is 112522. And as I am writing this from my holiday in Spain I am out often enough to know it by heart. Don't you dare make that kind of presumption. A good light beats a yellow panel any day, especially if visibility gets poor. If the fog comes down or it starts snowing before you can get off track what use is your beloved panel then? If it is so good why don't  ALL the other railways of the world would have yellow panels too? Unless you are going to pretend they don't take safety seriously?

[phil-b259]

My sentinel number is 11252208. Don't you dare make that kind of presumption.

In which case I apologise - but you did not make it clear you were speaking from a position of experience.

 

If you personally feel that yellow panels are of little use to you when on track then I respect your viewpoint - but it still stands that the apparent failure of management (in your eyes) to support such an opinion has very little to do with guts but rather shows a understandable reluctance to move away from something that in many people's eyes is still immensely helpful when on track.

 

It is an unfortunate fact that there are far too many people outside, and indeed inside (this is generally speaking - not a dig at you by the way) the industry who seem to think that they have the right to change things without proper consultation with those that may be affected.

 

I would also point out that the fact that for many simply saying the RSSB cannot see an issue is not exactly a ringing endorsement of any suggested change - many of their pronouncements do seem to show a lack of pratical knowledge and rather too much of an emphasis on the outcomes of focus groups and desktop exercises.

[The Stationmaster]

I always had the feeling that the yellow panel was a bit of a cop out by a cash strapped British Rail.  Someone probably decided that yellow paint would be adequate compared to the cost of retrofitting proper lamps, especially since the front end needed paint anyway. Of course if the sensible move of fitting diesel and electric locos with proper lamps in the first place had been taken we would not have needed to improve visibility in the first place. Trouble is now we have lamps plenty good enough to render the yellow panel redundant, no one has the guts to abolish the requirement just in case their neck gets put on the line...

I think that in some respects you are right.  I seem to recall (from outside the fence at that time) that there was a fair bit of experimentation with various ideas - including a flashing light which was trialled on a  Deltic on the ECML.  By the time I joined in 1966 there was a rash of worry about keeping yellow ends clean enough to be seen at a distance and some very strange experiments were carried out to try to solve that problem but adding lights was not among them for various practical reasons.

 

It is only in recent years, partly thanks to interoperability, that the idea of lights as part of making the train visible to staff on-track has gained any currency and while they too can become dirty or even obscured there's an awful lot to be said for the distant visibility of three lights instead of a potentially grubby patch of yellow paint which in any case is of limited value in the dark (and don't forget that it gets dark well within the normal working day in the winter).  In any case dispensing with yellow panels would be subject to risk assessment and one would hope that such assessments would be carried out objectively.

 

In my experience decent lights do provide far earlier warning than a patch of yellow paint and that is an important consideration when a train can be on top of you within much less than a minute of it coming into any sort of view.

[The Stationmaster]

When TGVs whistle along at speed, access to the running lines is very strictly controlled by DPTs (Depeches de Protection des Travaux); even then, there can be accidents with severe consequences, such as the disorientated track workers who arrived at the gate on the wrong side of the track, thought they were covered by the possession, and were run down by a TGV set at full tilt. Three died.

Adding a bit to that - LGVs (the SNCF high speed lines) are totally closed for lineside access and work while high speed trains are running although staff are allowed into some nearby sidings to prepare on-track plant and ballast trains ready for the timetable white periods (no booked service periods).  

[phil-b259]

 

In my experience decent lights do provide far earlier warning than a patch of yellow paint and that is an important consideration when a train can be on top of you within much less than a minute of it coming into any sort of view.

Nobody is disputing that bright headlights are far superior to yellow when it comes to spotting that a train is approaching. What they are far less helpful in is assessing speed and distance.

 

When you have a nice straight section of track and can see a train a good couple of miles away, then getting clear as soon as you see a bright light wastes time that could safely and productively be used on track*. A yellow panel by contrast gives the eye something that gets progressively bigger as it gets closer, thus allowing a better appreciation of distance and closing speed.

 

* Note the highest line speed I deal with is 90mph - I can appreciate that at 125mph getting out the way as soon as you see the light might be necessary, even on straight track.

* Also the nature of S&T work means that we tend to be able to be more nimble than other departments and require less time to get clear.

[phil-b259]

My sentinel number is 112522. And as I am writing this from my holiday in Spain I am out often enough to know it by heart. Don't you dare make that kind of presumption. A good light beats a yellow panel any day, especially if visibility gets poor. If the fog comes down or it starts snowing before you can get off track what use is your beloved panel then? If it is so good why don't  ALL the other railways of the world would have yellow panels too? Unless you are going to pretend they don't take safety seriously?

You are missing the point somewhat. Granted a yellow panel is harder to notice when it initially comes into view - but a light does not get larger the closer it gets - something that IS true of a yellow panel.

 

At present I would say we have the ideal combination - headlights to draw your attention and yellow panels to assist with speed and distance.

 

As regards fog or falling snow - then in my experience even with today's lighting it's still to dangerous to work red zone, principally because a beam of light is hopeless when it comes to assessing distance. Thus if it starts snowing when I am out (as happened 3 or 4 winters ago) then its 'all off' ASAP.

 

Finally I couldn't care what they do in Spain, France, Germany, etc I don't work on their railways. I work here in the UK and consider the current system beneficial to my safety and as such it should stay.

[black and decker boy]

We did, briefly have this under BR. The 150/2s, when first introduced over the Pennines had a beige front end, not yellow, as it was said their bemac headlights were better than yellow.

 

Clearly sense prevailed, iirc, on the basis that if the bulb failed then the train would be less visible, and yellow was applied after a few months.

[St. Simon]

Hi,

 

I think I have to agree with Phil, whenever I've been on track, I have felt that the yellow panel makes it safer than just having a headlight.

 

Take an Electrostar or Desiro, the main beam headlight is only on one side of the corridor connection, so if you are on the other side of the connection to the headlight, you may not see the marker light from a great distance, where as you'll see a Yellow Panel from a distance.

 

The argument that other countries don't have them, does work here I feel as they have different staff protection systems and procedures, and some have bad worker safety records, where as UK, there is a very good safety record, in part due to the Yellow Panel no doubt. Also, other countries don't use full High Vis, does make a valid argument for getting rid of ours?

 

Simon

[phil-b259]

Take an Electrostar or Desiro, the main beam headlight is only on one side of the corridor connection, so if you are on the other side of the connection to the headlight, you may not see the marker light from a great distance, where as you'll see a Yellow Panel from a distance.

 

 

Indeed - The front end of the Electrostars, with their prominent yellow fly cover doors on the gangway ends being particularly useful contrasting as it does with the half hight panels under each window, are a very good front end when it comes to assessments of distance and closing speed.

[Trog]

^{In my opinion having a bright headlamp on the front of trains is by far the best safety improvement of recent years, and as has been said it also works in the dark. Something I appreciate after a near miss with a class 25 hauled parcels train bowling along the mainline with just one dim bulb glowing in its headcode box. However I think we should keep the yellow front ends, as there are situations where the yellow paint works better than the lights. One being on a really hot day, the heat shimmer can disperse the light, but it also makes the yellow patch shimmer and change size in a very eye catching way. The way the yellow patch flickers up or down as the shadows of the OHL masts pass over it also gives you a feeling for which way the train is travelling, often at distances such that you can not make out which road the train is on..}

[Titan]

In which case I apologise - but you did not make it clear you were speaking from a position of experience.

 

If you personally feel that yellow panels are of little use to you when on track then I respect your viewpoint - but it still stands that the apparent failure of management (in your eyes) to support such an opinion has very little to do with guts but rather shows a understandable reluctance to move away from something that in many people's eyes is still immensely helpful when on track.

 

It is an unfortunate fact that there are far too many people outside, and indeed inside (this is generally speaking - not a dig at you by the way) the industry who seem to think that they have the right to change things without proper consultation with those that may be affected.

 

I would also point out that the fact that for many simply saying the RSSB cannot see an issue is not exactly a ringing endorsement of any suggested change - many of their pronouncements do seem to show a lack of pratical knowledge and rather too much of an emphasis on the outcomes of focus groups and desktop exercises.

 

Well i probably over reacted a little too!

 

I entirely agree about the point about judging distance with only one lamp, but one thing that is making a difference now is the trains fitted with a roof mounted lamps, you can see them even further away if they are coming over the brow of the hill. The extra lamps help give an idea of distance, but it could be open to debate how good that is. But the most important thing is to be visible.

[phil-b259]

Well i probably over reacted a little too!

 

I entirely agree about the point about judging distance with only one lamp, but one thing that is making a difference now is the trains fitted with a roof mounted lamps, you can see them even further away if they are coming over the brow of the hill. The extra lamps help give an idea of distance, but it could be open to debate how good that is. But the most important thing is to be visible.

 

Oh don't get me wrong, visibility is important so as the lookout is alerted to a 'threat' so to speak - but thats only the start of the process which factors in many other things of which local knowledge plays a big part (much to the disgust of those who seem to think all you need is a bit of paper drafted by someone in an office who rarely goes on track). Part of my patch includes the dead straight quadruple track between Gatwick and Three Bridges. Trains and multiple signal sections are easily viable for long distances in either direction and it would be incredibly disruptive to get out the way every time a headlight was spotted. Having a yellow panel assists the lookout (one of the competences I hold) by making it easier to judge how fast the train is approaching, what line its on and ultimately when you need to call the others into a position of safety. On the other hand there are places where the line is not so well laid out and its a case of calling people out straight way - and in this respect a headlight is indeed more of an asset than a yellow panel - but the circumstances are different so the two scenarios are not directly comparable.

 

If the yellow panel was to be removed then I maintain you would need to cover the same surface area with lights to get the same abilities with regard speed and distance assessment.

[Edwin_m]

You are missing the point somewhat. Granted a yellow panel is harder to notice when it initially comes into view - but a light does not get larger the closer it gets - something that IS true of a yellow panel.

 

The OP makes reference to the yellow panel only being required where lighting conforming to the LOC and PAS TSI is not fitted.  We assume this means that cabs with lighting conformant to this standard will therefore not require a yellow panel. 

 

The relevant part of the LOC and PAS TSI is section 4.2.7.1.1 and 4.2.7.1.2 of this link. 

 

The relevant text reads:

 

 

(2)

Two white headlamps shall be provided at the front end of the train in order to give visibility for the train driver.

(3)

These head lamps shall be located:

—

at the same height above the rail level, with their centres between 1 500 and 2 000 mm above the rail level,

—

symmetrically compared to the centre-line of rails, and with a distance between their centres not less than 1 000 mm.

(4)

The colour of head lamps shall be in accordance with the values specified in the specification referenced in Appendix J-1, index 38, clause 5.3.3, Table 1.

(5)

Headlamps shall provide 2 luminous intensity levels: ‘dimmed headlamp’ and ‘full-beam headlamp’.

For ‘dimmed headlamp’, the luminous intensity of headlamps measured along the optical axis of the head lamp shall be in accordance with the values specified in the specification referenced in Appendix J-1, index 38, clause 5.3.4, table 2, first line.

For ‘full-beam headlamp’, the minimum luminous intensity of headlamps measured along the optical axis of the lamp shall be in accordance with the values specified in the specification referenced in Appendix J-1, index 38, clause 5.3.4, Table 2, first line.

(6)

The installation of head lamps on the unit shall provide a means of alignment adjustment of their optical axis when installed on the unit according to the specification referenced in Appendix J-1, index 38, clause 5.3.5, to be used during maintenance activities.

(7)

Additional head lamps may be provided (e.g. upper head lamps). These additional head lamps shall fulfil the requirement on the colour of head lamps specified above in this clause.

Note: additional head lamps are not mandatory; their use at operational level may be subject to restrictions.

 

 

(2) Three white marker lamps shall be provided at the front end of the train in order to make the train visible.

(3)

Two lower marker lamps shall be located:

—

at the same height above the rail level, with their centres between 1 500 and 2 000 mm above the rail level,

—

symmetrically compared to the centre-line of rails, and with a distance between their centres not less than 1 000 mm.

(4)

The third marker lamp shall be located centrally above the two lower lamps, with a vertical separation between their centres equal to or greater than 600 mm.

(5)

It is permitted to use the same component for both head lights and marker lights.

(6)

The colour of marker lamps shall be in accordance with the values specified in the specification referenced in Appendix J-1, index 39, clause 5.4.3.1, Table 4.

(7)

The spectral radiation distribution of light from the marker lamps shall be in accordance with the values specified in the specification referenced in Appendix J-1, index 39, clause 5.4.3.2.

(8)

The luminous intensity of marker lamps shall be in accordance with the specification referenced in Appendix J-1, index 39, clause 5.4.4, Table 6.

 

Unfortunately that's not clear regarding whether both headlights need to be illuminated, or whether the existing UK arrangement of illuminating one daytime and one nighttime headlight is compliant.  For what it's worth I think UK stock would have to illuminate both headlights, in which case would the track workers among us consider two headlights of equal brightness would help with the issue of judging distance? 

[phil-b259]

The OP makes reference to the yellow panel only being required where lighting conforming to the LOC and PAS TSI is not fitted.  We assume this means that cabs with lighting conformant to this standard will therefore not require a yellow panel. 

 

The relevant part of the LOC and PAS TSI is section 4.2.7.1.1 and 4.2.7.1.2 of this link. 

 

The relevant text reads:

 

 

 

Unfortunately that's not clear regarding whether both headlights need to be illuminated, or whether the existing UK arrangement of illuminating one daytime and one nighttime headlight is compliant.  For what it's worth I think UK stock would have to illuminate both headlights, in which case would the track workers among us consider two headlights of equal brightness would help with the issue of judging distance? 

 

My gut fealing is no, however....

 

In theory when the train is far away the two lights will be close together, as the train gets closer they will move apart. The question is would the average person be able to perceive them moving apart sufficiently quickly so that they could react in time. Also how does this compare with a yellow panel - is it better or worse.

 

It certainly is a case of more research needed on the topic before any decisions should be made.

 

There is also the little mater that according to the relevant standard

 

E.1.2 says:

 

When a non-yellow front end is selected, it will be useful for transport operators to assess the impact of the change to their operations and the effect on other affected parties through a suitable and sufficient risk assessment and adequate consultation.

 

So far none of the above has happened yet (Consulting with desk bound industry players doesn't count!)