The End of the Yellow Panel

[Reorte]

But, with due respect, you are not a professional and you don't have what I would hope would be the knowledge and experience of a professional to enable you to judge a train's position against lineside landmarks etc (although I must admit the possible increasing difficulty of that when ill-maintained linesides are little better than green tunnels).   Equally I would immediately admit that were i working in a place with which I was not intimately familiar I would no doubt have the same difficulty - as I'm sure would most folk (the Severn Tunnel was definitely in that category as sounds carry in a peculiar way when you're not used to the place).

No, I'm not a professional, but that's my point. I think to a lot of us who aren't it sounds far easier than it actually is. The experience and familiariaty you mention is clearly essential, even though it sounds like it should be easy until you actually try it.

[Edwin_m]

I left wondering which TOC has been kicking off about yellow ends spoiling their new livery design? This has to be the only reason why the standard would change. 

May well be driven by EU interoperability requirements.  They take a stern view if a member state imposes standards that have the effect of limiting the single market. 

[caradoc]

If those who work on the track say that yellow panels are of benefit to them, they stay.

 

As for the suggestion of a call on a mobile phone to advise staff of an approaching train; Any such warning system must fail safe, which I don't believe this would.

[Trog]

I have in the past very occasionally seen trains running with only a red light at the front. But never one where the driver forgot to change the yellow painted end to the front. As the front of the train has to be painted anyway, doing the front in yellow must cost almost nothing, so as safety is supposed to be so important these days why even talk about having anything but full yellow ends. I don't see how it can do any harm, and it may just save somebodies life.

[woodenhead]

I was stood a my local station this afternoon and it's on a dead straight bit of track in a shallow cutting.

 

At the station there is a signal and I can see the next signal down the line, what struck me on that distant signal was that red and yellow aspects are very clear but once it went green it was a little more difficult to perceive the signal as it merged into the vegetation and background I imagine.

 

Then I watched a train pass and the red light and yellow end remained visible for the whole distance, on an apporaching 150, it was much easier to perceive the yellow front end the the high intensity headlight though the two in tandem said 'train!'. I think with the yellow end trains are going to be much more likely to blend into the background much like the green signal (from a distance) or the high intensity headlight without something bright to frame it.

 

TOCs have plenty of space on the side of trains to brand them and generally that is the angle which the public sees to know if this is their train, let the fronts of trains remain in the safety domain of track workers.

[Southernman46]

I'm sure people are far more likely to walk out in front of a tram

Yorkshire women and OAP's to boot - mind you !

 

The tram did stop..................

 

The skill that I have witnessed of Sheffield tram drivers in judging some of these encounters is certainly to be admired.

 

This was turning back at the next stop hence the "Meadowhall" in the wrong direction.

 

[Allegheny1600]

Coming forward the recent fatality figures (from the ORR) for infrastructure workers have, with one exception, been 3 or fewer per annum since reporting year 2002/3 - the figure in 2013/14 was 3 but 2 of those were unfortunately killed in a road accident.  The exceptional year was 2003/4 with 7 fatalities while in 6 years out of the 12 noted fatalities among infrastructure staff were 2 or less (one year with none, 2 years with one fatality).  Thus in terms of analysing cause and contributory factors there is in fact a remarkably low number of fatalities to consider.  Obviously serious injuries (for which I have not sought out information) would also need to be considered as would, perhaps, minor injuries.

 

Hello All,

I am interested in this subject as an observer of both UK and European trains. I am strictly an amateur but did possess a permit to be on the track when I worked at Litchurch Lane (Derby) a few years back, never actually going beside 'proper' running rails so I do appreciate there is a vast difference there.

Anyway, thanks to Mike above, we have some recent UK fatality statistics - someone earlier stated that in Germany, their statistics were approximately ten times this figure.

I make that in the order of 30 deaths per year in Germany alone, never mind the rest of Europe.

Can it really be so bad?

Where do these figures come from, please?

IF our application of a simple yellow panel could be established to be the one thing that led to much reduced fatalities in the UK, then why the heII are we not pushing the Europeans into adopting it?

That is a lot of lives being wasted, Europe wide.

John E.

[jjb1970]

This isn't just trains. I worked for a German electricity company (E.ON) and their health and safety stats in Germany were very poor compared to the UK. In my current job I often visit ship yards and engine works and I'm often quite shocked at behaviours which are still quite normal in many other developed economies never mind some of the lower cost economies.

[Titan]

 

IF our application of a simple yellow panel could be established to be the one thing that led to much reduced fatalities in the UK, then why the heII are we not pushing the Europeans into adopting it?

That is a lot of lives being wasted, Europe wide.

John E.

 

 The greatest contribution is attitude, both from the ground right up to management. Whilst there are still a few chancers - I guess as humans there always will be - The safety culture in this country means that people make sure that safe systems of work are in place and signed off and approved for every single job, even the lowliest survey work where all you are doing is walking around taking notes and photos. There is a lot to be said for making someone write down exactly how they are going to do the job safely, getting someone to agree it is a safe method and then having the culture to make sure that is exactly how the job happens on site with no short cuts. Now whilst I get worked up about all the paperwork this can generate, and if one little bit is not in order or it is discovered that it can't actually be done that way, the job stops,  I have to reluctantly accept that the fatality statistics speak for themselves and all this hassle, extra paperwork, and in the most part an unbending attitude to the rules from top to bottom over the years has saved many, many lives.

[pete_mcfarlane]

This isn't just trains. I worked for a German electricity company (E.ON) and their health and safety stats in Germany were very poor compared to the UK. In my current job I often visit ship yards and engine works and I'm often quite shocked at behaviours which are still quite normal in many other developed economies never mind some of the lower cost economies.

I find it somewhat ironic that when the Daily Mail have a good rant about health and safety and how it should be abolished, they basically want us to be more like our EU partners..... 

[brianusa]

H & S always seems to rear its head when such topics appear. This one has been on and off for ages with those for and against sparring with the same arguments. Few of us can make a case as few of us are employed by the railways so our points of view are our personal preferences or opinions. Mine is that they are not necessary but as in prior discussions, those who differ will offer valid points why they are. With the advent of modern lighting such as LEDs (have you noticed 'side lights' on modern cars recently), the argument for yellow panels becomes less and less as does the comparison with foreign railways.

[stewartingram]

Looking at this from my viewpoint as a schoolboy observer when diesels, then yellow panels, followed by full yellow ends, were introduced, these were my observations way back then.

As a safety conscious person, I never have wandered about aimlessly around trains, though I did my share of bunking sheds without incident!

The steam trains I accepted for what they were, and got used to sighting them (probably more from a trainspotters viewpoint than safety), and that can be considered the baseline. When diesels were intoruced, they were supposed to be quieter and faster, though in practice I never noticed any real difference. The change really was the lack of smoke, which itself was very active. So this made the diesels less obvious in the distance.

I will say that I lived in the flat landscape of the East Anglia area, so more often than not the backdrop was the horizon whatever the weather. However the mags of the time I remember came up with comments that various ideas were being tried to make the diesels more easy to see approaching. These included new liveries such as D5579 in Golden Ochre, various electric lights on the front including D9000 with a strobe light, and car type spotlights on some locos on various lines. None really gained favour at the time.

Also the (small) yellow panels were introduced. I found these to be a contrast with both the green of the loco and the sky. At the time I thought of other more urban areas in the context of the Liverpool Street approaches and thought that maybe they would be of more use there than in the open spaces in my area.

Later on full yellow ends came along. I always felt that this was a retrograde step, even going back beyond the baseline mentioned earlier. Any contrast between the main loco colour and the yellow was totally lost, and the lighter yellow did not contrast as well with the sky background. So for FYE it is a no from me.

Then along came headlights. These are far more visible than any yellow, a good thing in my opinion, and they also indicate a moving active train, rather than something parked. (By active, I mean one that could have temorarily stopped at a signal or station, but will resume movement shortly). So, if it is there, keep clear of it.

In more recent times, I have moved into railway work including trackside. All my workmates regard me as the raiway expert(!) because of the interests I have, but I do feel confident and safe trackside due to my working practices and attitude. (A few of my workmates hate being trackside). Whilst trackside, I am guarded by the relevant safety systems of the moment, including lookouts, but I still keep my own wits about me.

Now if it is NR trackside (I am normally LU - where yellow panels do not exist) -  I am aware of trains with lights well before I see the yellow panels. The lookout knows the sighting distance and when to move off; but I am aware of the train, the line speed etc, so am aware myself. Some liveries are not FYE but more akin to the original small panel, I still find that better than FYE. But I honestly do not see the need of the yellow panel, nowhere I have worked has in my opinion shown it to be of any value over the lights.

 

Stewart

[roythebus]

Some interesting debate here. Someone earlier mentioned the USA trains use bells, so do cows, bicycles and trams. People ignore those as well.

 

Speaking of trams, back in the 1980s I had a couple of tram people from Gothenberg ride with me one Saturday from Waterloo to Petersfield (engineering work), before the days of headlights. What my friends found amazing on the way back was how did I see where I was going with just the route indicator?

My reply was that I know the way, the train follows the rails.

But then what if there's something on the line?

I hit it. What happens in Sweden?

Well, we can see it and sound the horn, plus we have a clear edge some 5m each side of the line.

So, you see something, sound the horn it doesn't move, you still hit it.

Well, yes, but at least we can see what we're hitting..

I don't give a s**t, it shouldn't be there!

 

Could I see a yellow front at night? Not usually.

Could I see an oncoming train with a headcode panel? Yes usually, it stood out in the black of the night.

Could I see a 455 with headlights, yes, they were so bright they were blinding, then I couldn't see the train on the fast line with just the headcode panel.

 

The earlier comment on a train with a red light on the front could be the driver forgot to change it, but could have been a wrong line move where a red light has to be displayed or have they changed that rule too?

[scouser]

I recently saw a photograph of a green diesel without a yellow front panel. Taken when diesels were just being introduced, on a dull day.

It was almost invisible, quite shockingly so.

I don't really believe anybodies journey is worth a life. This is because I actually believe in heath and safety, left to me nobody would work on a railway while trains are running.

142 workers, in various industries, died in the UK last year. H and S figures.

If you think your convenience is more important than a life, maybe your attitude would change if that life were your own.

If yellow paint saves just one life then that paint is priceless!

If designers aren't happy with a full yellow front then they can get creative. Look at the new Eurostar sets.

[phil-b259]

Looking at this from my viewpoint as a schoolboy observer when diesels, then yellow panels, followed by full yellow ends, were introduced, these were my observations way back then.

As a safety conscious person, I never have wandered about aimlessly around trains, though I did my share of bunking sheds without incident!

The steam trains I accepted for what they were, and got used to sighting them (probably more from a trainspotters viewpoint than safety), and that can be considered the baseline. When diesels were intoruced, they were supposed to be quieter and faster, though in practice I never noticed any real difference. The change really was the lack of smoke, which itself was very active. So this made the diesels less obvious in the distance.

I will say that I lived in the flat landscape of the East Anglia area, so more often than not the backdrop was the horizon whatever the weather. However the mags of the time I remember came up with comments that various ideas were being tried to make the diesels more easy to see approaching. These included new liveries such as D5579 in Golden Ochre, various electric lights on the front including D9000 with a strobe light, and car type spotlights on some locos on various lines. None really gained favour at the time.

Also the (small) yellow panels were introduced. I found these to be a contrast with both the green of the loco and the sky. At the time I thought of other more urban areas in the context of the Liverpool Street approaches and thought that maybe they would be of more use there than in the open spaces in my area.

Later on full yellow ends came along. I always felt that this was a retrograde step, even going back beyond the baseline mentioned earlier. Any contrast between the main loco colour and the yellow was totally lost, and the lighter yellow did not contrast as well with the sky background. So for FYE it is a no from me.

Then along came headlights. These are far more visible than any yellow, a good thing in my opinion, and they also indicate a moving active train, rather than something parked. (By active, I mean one that could have temorarily stopped at a signal or station, but will resume movement shortly). So, if it is there, keep clear of it.

In more recent times, I have moved into railway work including trackside. All my workmates regard me as the raiway expert(!) because of the interests I have, but I do feel confident and safe trackside due to my working practices and attitude. (A few of my workmates hate being trackside). Whilst trackside, I am guarded by the relevant safety systems of the moment, including lookouts, but I still keep my own wits about me.

Now if it is NR trackside (I am normally LU - where yellow panels do not exist) -  I am aware of trains with lights well before I see the yellow panels. The lookout knows the sighting distance and when to move off; but I am aware of the train, the line speed etc, so am aware myself. Some liveries are not FYE but more akin to the original small panel, I still find that better than FYE. But I honestly do not see the need of the yellow panel, nowhere I have worked has in my opinion shown it to be of any value over the lights.

 

Stewart

 

You are missing the point. Nobody has said the yellow panel is a suitable substitute for decent headlights, which I readily concede are more visible in a 'here I am' kind of way. As I have tried to explain a beam of light doesn't get appreciably larger as it approaches the observer. A 1m high yellow panel does, particularly when painted onto a contrasting colour such as dark green, BR blue or black - as many cab window areas seem to be these days.

 

As regards stationary trains - there are quite a few locations on my patch where it is quite safe to continue working* on the line if a train is stopping at a station between it coming visible by headlights (thanks to the straight alignment of the track). As such the speed of an approaching train is a useful aid to obtaining the correct balance between calling people off the lines concerned in sufficient time, but not doing so unnecessarily. The yellow panel is a useful aid to this process - which is not unsafe if applied correctly (i.e. it takes into account the possibility the train might not stop, etc) by staff familiar with local conditions and in suitable locations.

 

*Note most S&T tasks of any substance will interfere with the signalling in some way and thus require the line to be free of trains in the first place. Those tasks that don't are by and large of a nature where it is quick and easy to move clear the of the line if necessary. The same is not true of most p-way tasks (because they don't affect the signalling system and require substantial tools).

[Peter Kazmierczak]

If having a bit of yellow on the front of trains saves death and injury to rail workers, what's the problem?

 

As an aside, when did red bufferbeams first appear on steam engines? Was it one railway company who started the trend? Presumably it was never mandatory as certain classes, eg A4s, didn't have them.

[brianusa]

That was before the days of H & S!

 

Brian.

[Mike Storey]

Of 40 years in the railways, about 30 were spent on or near the line. The first 11 were in operations (emergency response to accidents, derailments, deaths, injuries, flagging signals, winding/pumping points, ad hoc shunting, Pilotman, and so on), mostly on the Southern, but also on the ECML. We did not have the luxury of "lookouts" afforded to engineering staff, neither did we use T3 or even T2, as we were there to keep things running, or get them running again asap. We had to rely on our wits. Yellow ends were pretty useless, except in bright sunlight maybe, but that is rarely when we were called out. Multiple yellow ends in sidings or on multiple track sections were even more useless, particularly as DMU's/EMU's were yellow at both ends. Dimly lit headcodes were all I had, or the brighter lights of the red blinds to tell me that one was not coming my way. Oh for a bright light to tell me so much more in advance that a train was approaching, and even better for a driver who tooted up some distance away rather than when he was right on top of me.

 

Once I moved to project management, with occasional T2's but mainly T3's, and always a lookout, a PICOP (often me originally) and a set of written down agreements as to the extent of work, protection and timings, it was heaven. Different from engineering maintenance call outs I know, but with similarities not comparable to operations call outs. I do not denigrate those of you undertaking these works, endeavouring to get as much done in between trains as you can, as to your reliance on yellow ends, and I respect that.

 

The fatalities and severe injuries I personally dealt with amounted to 11, i.e 1 per year, not statistically significant I know, apart from suicides which were far more frequent (6 to 8 per year on my patches), all concerned either crossing after one train had passed but right in front of another (both staff and public), or very slow speed impacts, where carelessness/misunderstanding either on the injured person's part, or the loco driver's/plant operator's, or in one case, runaway vehicles, were held to blame. Yellow ends made no difference to any of these. What would have prevented many more accidents, was to have painted all track obstructions, such as stacked sleepers, discarded chairs, scrap rail and so on, luminescent orange. That would have saved me, for one, from a trip to hospital on one occasion in the middle of the night.

 

I don't argue for the removal of yellow ends, but I do not see them as sacrosanct either. The greatest cause of death and serious accident in the railways remains AFAIK, lifting and falling injuries. Such urbane accidents do not get the same headlines, but actually cause far more grief, exponentially, to individuals, their families, friends and to the industry and its customers.

[david.hill64]

 

I make that in the order of 30 deaths per year in Germany alone, never mind the rest of Europe.

Can it really be so bad?

Where do these figures come from, please?

 

Figures are available from eurostat:

 

http://www.era.europa.eu/Document-Register/Pages/Railway-Safety-Performance-Rep-2014.aspx

 

You have to be very careful in comparing statistics. The eurostat figures do not agree with the UK figures available from ORR. I think they are adjusted to be comparable with one another.

 

Eurostat gives the total number of UK railway worker fatalities between 2010 and 2012 as 1, with 8 serious injuries. The equivalent figures for DB are 27 deaths and 56 serious injuries. So you can interpret my '10 times worse' comment how you will. One factor of course is that DB has a much bigger network - about double the number of track kilometres - though train frequency is greater in the UK.

[unclebobkt]

      I learnt many years ago in the British Army that it's movement that catches the sentry's attention.

  This was followed-up when I served at sea and alternating/flashing/occulting lights were quicker spotted that fixed ones.

 

  Why not fix a flashing & yellow light, with a narrow beam just below the locomotive's roof-line and focussed DOWN to the average eye-level at a certain distance ahead?

  Possibly, too, the quicker the train was going the faster would be the flashing light.

  The only drawback that I can see, at the moment, is that in mists, fogs, rain and or snow-storms the moisture particles might reflect back into the driver's eyes.  But under such conditions I would not expect PW. staff to be operating, (unless there was some EMERGENCY, in which case I would expect drivers to have been warned beforehand about such an occurence by one means or another and before approaching such an EMGY.),.

 

  As for the EU's inter-operability, compatability or whatever else, if it's GB's. informed judgement that yellow panels save lives then  the answer is patently & palpably obvious, isn't it?

 

     

[Reorte]

 

I recently saw a photograph of a green diesel without a yellow front panel. Taken when diesels were just being introduced, on a dull day.

It was almost invisible, quite shockingly so.

I don't really believe anybodies journey is worth a life. This is because I actually believe in heath and safety, left to me nobody would work on a railway while trains are running.

142 workers, in various industries, died in the UK last year. H and S figures.

If you think your convenience is more important than a life, maybe your attitude would change if that life were your own.

If yellow paint saves just one life then that paint is priceless!

If designers aren't happy with a full yellow front then they can get creative. Look at the new Eurostar sets.

Unfortunately yes, you do have to accept that doing things will occasionally cost lives, because the only way you'll completely avoid that is to do nothing at all. The only 100% safe railway (or anything else) is a nonexistant one, and if you did everything that could be answer "if it saves one life..." then you'll have a system that's impossibly expensive and probably unusable. Like it or not it does become a question of where do you draw the line. Yellow paint is cheap so it's an easy answer there but you can't apply the same thinking to everything. And yes, I say that about my own life too. I wouldn't set foot outside the front door otherwise.

 

No doubt someone will now come along and try to imply that I don't care about anyone at all, couldn't care less is hundreds died every week etc., as if not liking one extreme means I like the other.

  Why not fix a flashing & yellow light,

That yellow is very hard to see!

[brushman47544]

Incidentally I'm not at all sure what is driving the idea of allowing trains to operate without yellow warning panels but I doubt it is any UK operators and suggest it probably relates more to inter-operability rather than anything else.

May well be driven by EU interoperability requirements.  They take a stern view if a member state imposes standards that have the effect of limiting the single market. 

 

That would be my assumption too. As the EU continues to open the market for rail freight and passenger services, ensuring fair and equal treatment of railways operators becomes all the more important, to avoid deliberate discrimination against new open access operators by the traditional national railway companies. One of the elements of this is ensuring that trains are not unreasonably blocked from operating across borders by incompatible national standards - for example (not a real one) country A requires 5 headlights on a loco in V formation plus a red front end, but its neighbour country B requires the same lights in an A formation and an orange front. If such incompatibilities were allowed to prevail, all trains would have to change loco at the border adding significantly to costs. Hence the drive for Europe-wide TSIs applicable in all Member States. What is of course essential is that safety levels are maintained or even increased, not dropping to the lowest common denominator.

[St. Simon]

  Why not fix a flashing & yellow light, with a narrow beam just below the locomotive's roof-line and focussed DOWN to the average eye-level at a certain distance ahead?

 

No Yellow Lights to be shown on the front of a train (no matter which direction they are pointing), for the same reason track workers are not permitted to wear Yellow High Vis. A yellow light on the front of a train can easily be mistaken (particularly at night) for a cautionary signal aspect, even worse would be a flashing yellow light, this could be mistaken for a Approach Control Flashing Cautionary signal aspect and of course this can happen the other way around. If either of these mistakes were to be made, it could have very serious consequences.

 

Now, you might be saying that why can't a Yellow Panel be mistaken for a signal? Well, this is because the panels are much larger and square in shape generally, so would be harder to confuse, plus the signals use a brighter, lighter yellow, where as the panels are often on the orange end of yellow.

 

Simon

[Glorious NSE]

Eurostat gives the total number of UK railway worker fatalities between 2010 and 2012 as 1, with 8 serious injuries. The equivalent figures for DB are 27 deaths and 56 serious injuries. So you can interpret my '10 times worse' comment how you will. One factor of course is that DB has a much bigger network - about double the number of track kilometres - though train frequency is greater in the UK.

Given that (if I'm looking at the right place) the stat appears to be all railway workers and not just track maintenance staff i'd have thought some of that statistic would also relate to Germany running their railway in a fashion that involves more day to day shunting/coupling/uncoupling - more loco haulage of passenger trains, more wagonload freight etc...(he says whilst trying not to start a discussion on whether that is "better" or not... )

 

This video immediately popped into my head - suspect many of you will have seen this one already...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RqRamH7LqPw

 

 

[wombatofludham]

I can't see what the problem is with yellow paint.  It may be that lights are effective and better in some cases but what on Earth is wrong with belt AND braces?  If some designer twonk is getting their Armani knickers in a twist over having to accommodate yellow paint into this year's must have trendy-wendy multi-thousand pound corporate image tough titty I say.  Can you imagine the dreary doom blue First Great Western HSTs without a yellow end?  They'd be visual stealth bombers, plus that dismal paint job needs a yellow end just to give it a lift aesthetically.

 

As for foreign railways, a number have started to adopt yellow front ends.  Belgium, Hungary, some German private operators, Ireland, some Swedish private operators, at least one Danish local operator, some Romanian operators, some trains in the Czech republic, amongst others, all sport either yellow "warning panels" or a yellow livery that effectively provides a warning colour, so it's not like the concept of hi-viz yellow fronts is completely unknown abroad.  If you add in those operators with white or red based colour schemes which provide a relatively visible front end, or some form of white or red panel applied to the base livery and the British yellow warning panels become less of an oddity.

 

As has been said, a good livery designer can accommodate yellow very effectively and, as with contrasting colour handrails, for me function is more important than aesthetics in this case and I say that as someone who was involved for some years in planning, landscape, art and design in public transport where I was trying to get something looking half decent for most of the time.