Penrhos Junctions

[Penrhos1920]

Some of you may well have noticed that I haven't been myself over the last year or more.  It's been 9 months since I've contributed to RMWeb and almost as long since I've lifted a modelling tool.  Except for the enforced modelling when the P4 Toerag turned up recently.  The crisis started with a night out with my work colleagues.  It was a very enjoyable evening.  So much so I didn't get out of bed the next day until after lunch, all because I have Chronic Fatigue Syndrome which means I have little energy.   I missed seeing the Vulcan at Sunderland and that was that.  I then realized that my dreams, including building a exhibition P4 model of Penrhos junctions, were not going to happen.

 

In that time a lot has happened: I've read, and mostly forgotten, the whole of Gordon's Eastwood Town topic, been made redundant, can't find a job, started catching up with countless DIY jobs, visited the RVI numerous times with my daughter and been thinking how can I make Penrhos Junctions a reality.  The big change that I think will make the difference is It's no longer going to be P4.  It's going to be EM-2, or 4SF if you must.  Or almost OO, but not quite.  That way I will spend only a fraction of the time making rolling stock as there is no need for suspension, compensation or billiard table track.  I reckon that I can build 5 EM-2 wagons in the time I would build one P4 wagon.

 

And this is where I need your help. I've been Temploting Penrhos and I need some folk to check over the plans before I cut any wood and commit to the final design.  There is no way that I want to get half way through the build only to find that the gradients won't work or I can't get to some points or whatever else and that I need to start again.  My layout of Penrhos Junctions is based upon the group of junctions as few miles west of Caerphilly set in 1920.  The map below shows the Pontypridd, Caerphilly & Newport Rly in brown, the Rhymney Rly in green and the Barry Rly uncoloured.  In addition to these three companies the GWR also ran passenger trains trains along the PC&N.  The main traffic was black gold.

 

 

The PC&N and Barry rlys are more or less level, except the Barry line running over the viaduct which descends to join the Barry.  The Rhymney line descends when it passes under the viaduct at 1 in 80 and then 1 in 47.  This is a Templot of how I intend to model the scenic area:

 

 

The fiddle yard is under the layout and all tracks spiral down to it.  The maximum off-scene gradient is 1 in 100.  Minimum radius is 36".

 

g1r__scenic_2016_05_25_1821_28.boxg1r__fy_entrances_2016_05_25_1825_31.boxg1r__lower_level_2016_05_28_1952_54.box

 

On a completely different topic.  I have realized how fortunate I was not have to drive a steam train down the Rhondda valley.  1 in 80 with just six brake blocks on the loco and 4 more on the guards van to stop 40 wagons each weighing 15 tons ending up in the Taff at Pontypridd.  Beats the latest roller coaster any day.

Edited June 1, 2022 by Penrhos1920
Images updated

[The Stationmaster]

The bit I wonder about - although depends very much on train length - is the 1 in 100 spirals on 36" radius with 'steam' loco haulage.  It is the likelihood of needing gradients that steep which keep putting me off the idea of spirals.  Just a thought.

 

Otherwise still a tremendous idea for a  model of a very interesting place which, regrettably, i only knew in its later years.  And you can probably also count yourself lucky you didn't have to drive a diesel up or down 'the Big Hill' from Walnut Tree - where fully fitted mgr trains were not unknown to run away and EE Type 3s could slip to a stand going up the hill with no more than 10 empty 16 tonners and a brakevan behind them; definitely real railwaymen's railways in the Valleys even in teh diesel age.

[Penrhos1920]

1 in 100 is what Gordon has set for his Eastwood Town which is steam hauled expresses, although I'm not sure what his minimum radius is.  This is the plan for the fiddle yard and routes down to it.  The east end lines all join together at the right end of the layout and spiral down the purple lines.  The west end lines are brown(Rhymney) and yellow(Barry and PC&N).  The brown Rhymney line is level until it joins the yellow Barry and PC&N lines.  If I use 1 in 100 all the way I get 6" elevation change which is plenty so I can probably relax the gradient on the curves.  What do fook think about the height required between the top of stock in the fiddle yard and baseboard above?  The green figure of 8 lines are reversing lines so that passenger trains can leave one end and reappear at the same end.  Unfortunately it requires a scissors crossover on the curve.

 

Edited June 1, 2022 by Penrhos1920

[Penrhos1920]

Over the last couple of weeks I've ignored the EU stuff and focused on baseboards.  The problem is the size of the layout and height of the scenery.  There is about 15” between the lowest scenic trackbed and the top of the scenery.  Then there is another 3-4” down to the fiddle yard level.

 

So the first question is what size of baseboard.  The layout will be 26’6” x 12’.  Templot has many sizes of baseboard in it and I’ve tried 6’ x 2’6” with ‘vertical’ 2’3” x 6” at each end, but wonder if they are too big.  On the other hand 4’ x 2’ seems too small.

 

Then the next question is whether to adjust the trackplan so that turnouts don’t straddle joints and there aren’t massive acute crossing angles.  Or use odd shape baseboards that follow the track?

 

Lots to think about and no firm ideas.  Help

 

 

 

The scenic track except the red bit which is a non-scenic spiral for the line from the Barry viaduct to drop down to the level of the rest of the track at the righthand end.  the grid is the same are the fiddle yard drawing in the previous post.

Edited June 1, 2022 by Penrhos1920

[Penrhos1920]

So not long after my previous post in 2016 the EM society brought out RTR EM points.  Although tempted I stuck to my OO plans and built about 100 wagons that year.  But try as I did I couldn't finalise a trackplan for Penrhos.  The problem was the miles of hidden track and fiddle yards.  Eventually it dawned that I was trying to attain the, for me, unachievable.  So I've turned Penrhos around and reduced the amount of scenic track to this:

 

 

 

Even this has taken a lot of toing and froing.  But I think I've got there.  Here's the new templot output.  I only drawn the scenic part of the top layer as that fiddle yard will sit above the lower yard.  Planning for old age, which is creeping up all too fast, all of the wiring, point motors and dcc boards will be on top of the boards; which is why the fiddle yard boards are a lot wider than the track.  Most of the scenery will be built as lift off sections that sit on the baseboards.  Only the scenic items that I've drawn will be on the baseboards.

 

 

 

And now Wayne Kinney is bringing out his British Finescale's EM point kits, so guess what, it's all in EM !!  I've only 100 OO waons to convert, plus 40 odd P4 wagons which will be easier because they've got the breaks in the right place, 2 P4 locos and 10 OO locos.

[drduncan]

What are the OO locos awaiting conversion?

Duncan

[Penrhos1920]

Barry J (ex L&Y 2-4-2t), 64xx, a couple of 56xx, Peckett, ROD Victory (when it arrives), they’re all genuine Penrhos locos.  Plus a Manor and a Grange which are rule 1 locomotives.

The P4 locos are GWR 645pt, ANDR 517 class, and I’ve just looked through the stock list to find that the 56xx are both P4; so they just need their wheels pushing in!  Don’t they?

 

[drduncan]

If the l & y 2-4-2 is the Bachmann model you may need to mill out metal from inside the tanks - this had to be done on the three I converted to P4 for a friend (he got someone to do the milling before passing them to me). The P4 locos will need em wheels (not trying to teach you to suck eggs) but the issue is the frame widths; P4 can be wider by a mm or thereabouts compared to em, so you might be able to replace the wheels but there might not be any side play.

Duncan

[Penrhos1920]

18 hours ago, drduncan said:

If the l & y 2-4-2 is the Bachmann model you may need to mill out metal from inside the tanks - this had to be done on the three I converted to P4 for a friend (he got someone to do the milling before passing them to me). The P4 locos will need em wheels (not trying to teach you to suck eggs) but the issue is the frame widths; P4 can be wider by a mm or thereabouts compared to em, so you might be able to replace the wheels but there might not be any side play.

Duncan

 

Yes it is the Bachmann model.  Reports from an EMGS member are that AG wheels fit in without modifying the castings.

 

Only joking about pushing P4 wheels in as just pulling out OO wheels is the normal suggestion - which works for diesels but not for steam locos with cylinders or cast side tanks.

[Penrhos1920]

First a view from the middle of board 17 looking under the Blackbrook Rd bridge which crosses board 18. It shows the AD tracks on the left and Rhymney tracks through the middle.  In the background is the Rhymney Penrhos North signal box and the tracks spliting to Rhymney on the left and Caerphilly on the right.

 

 

Now looking the other direction from the same position is the Barry viaduct over the lines to Barry, Taffs Well and Pontypridd (L2R).

 

Ok, the track diagram in yesterday's posting is a bit confusing so I've broken it down into four separate drawings.  First up is the Alexandra Dock route.  This is completely separate from the other routes on the model.  The Up direction was from Newport to Pontypridd and on the layout is anticlockwise.  The bridge under Blackbrook Rd is on the scenic left and Old Nantgarw Rd crosses over the track at the right hand end, although I might model the bridge at Groeswen as I have a good drawing of it.  Between Blackbrook Rd and the 2 water towers on the edge of board 15 there is little compression, but board 13 and the bridge should be 1/4 mile futher away.

 

The AD fiddle yard splits into 3 separate sections.  As you'd expect there are Up trains are stored on boards 2 to 4 and down trains on boards 3 to 5.  The third section is on boards 1 & 2.  In between the up & down lines are 6 sidings for passenger trains and a run-around for the locos to swap ends.  Each siding is for a specific train, 3 versions of the AD 'auto' train, 2 versions of the GWR Newport to Pontypridd passenger service and a GWR steam railmotor which runs under rule 1; the AD did have 2 steam railmotors but they where converted to normal coaches by 1920 and appear on the 'auto' trains.  Running along the top of the down sidings are 2 more long tracks for the GWR Aberystwyth 'Express' and a AD local goods, both can also use the run-around.

 

 

Next up is the Rhymney route.  The Up direction is from Cardiff, via Taffs Well to Rhymney and is clockwise on the layout.  So starting at the Blackbrook Rd bridge again the track is double and there is a double junction with the Barry Railway.  Immediately after the junction the line starts to decend Big Hill at 1 in 83.  On the left is the Rhymney signal box call Penrhos South which controls the junction with the Barry and the top of Big Hill.  All down goods trains have to stop on the 1 in 83 to pin down breaks.  Where the track crosses from board 15 to 13 the gradient steepens to 1 in 47, but I'm not modelling that!  The bridge under the farm track shouid be 1/2 mile futher down the hill.  The track runs up 1 in 100 to the fiddle yard where the only thing of interest is the siding for the banker up Big Hill.  By 1920 the Rhymney were not really using this route so you might just see a few random trains struggling up the hill.  Maybe 3x 37s with 27 iron ore tipplers or the South Wales Pullman.  It was not until 1928 that the GWR started to use this route down the hill and doubled the track as a route to avoid Cardiff Queen St for coal trains from the Rhymney valley.

 

 

Then there is the Barry lower route.  From the end on junction with the Rhymney the line ran down to Barry docks.  Modelled only in part are the exchange sidings where Rhymney locos and break vans are swapped for Barry ones or vise versa.  The Barry had loco coaling and water facilities and a signal box which controlled this end of the sidings; although it appears that the box was only built as a signal box, but was operated by the yard foreman.  The fiddle yard runs into the scenic exchange sidings and off scene there are 4 sidings for different break vans and 2 loops for Barry and Rhymney locos to cycle through.

 

 

The last part of the track plan is the Barry upper route from the other side of the Rhymney valley down to Barry docks.  It appears on the layout under a separate bridge under Blackrook Rd and runs through a cutting to Penrhos Viaduct which has 4 spans across the cutting with the other routes in.  The upper route then runs through another deep cutting off scene. This will be built last and so I'll plan the upper fiddle yard once I've been operating the lower tracks and so I can workout the best position for it.

 

 

The plan is to build very little scenery directly on the baseboards.  Instead I plan to make fibreglass shells that sit on the baseboards.  These shells will replicate the contours and cuttings and carry all the green stuff and the smaller buildings.

 

[drduncan]

6 hours ago, Penrhos1920 said:

 

Only joking about pushing P4 wheels in as just pulling out OO wheels is the normal suggestion - which works for diesels but not for steam locos with cylinders or cast side tanks.

Don’t joke…I had a mate etch some inside bearing units for 6w coaches for me as a favour.  I put the wheels on with the correct b to b and they wouldn’t turn. He, being a P4 type, had made them too wide for em; P4 wheels worked perfectly. It was a tad frustrating.  :/

Duncan

[Penrhos1920]

Quote

 

Bloody hell, you may have reduced the scenic part of the layout, but building the fiddleyards will still be a lot of effort.  Seems to me the proportions are all wrong.

 

That's from a friend of mine.  Maybe the fiddle yards are big and a lot of effort.  But we all know that we all have too much stock for our layouts.  Look at Mostyn; they've built a second fiddle yard and total fiddle yard baseboard space must be 3 times the scenic space.

 

My intention is to start by building the AD route with just a minimal fiddle yard.  Then when I'm happy with that running I'll slowly add more routes and bits of fiddle yard to accomodate the stock I've got.

[kandc_au]

On 03/06/2022 at 22:20, Penrhos1920 said:

 

  But we all know that we all have too much stock for our layouts. 

 

Nah, not to much stock....we just like realistic length trains
Khris

[Penrhos1920]

Well, it’s been a long time since I’ve posted on here about building Penrhos.  I had hoped to be able to show you some progress but unfortunately the baseboards that were promised for January still haven’t arrived. 

 

Having started out in P4, then giving up with P4 and changing to OO, and then flirting with EM, when the EM Society brought out the Peco points, I’m now looking at P4 again. Last autumn, the Scalefour Society announced the jubilee challenge competition (build a P4 layout with the scenic area being less than 18.83 ft.² and being capable of transported in a car).  Now it turns out that the area between the road bridge and the Barry viaduct including a reasonable amount of the cutting is only about 17 ft. so it would be possible to enter this area into the competition. This would require not modelling the Barry track over the viaduct, in order to comply with the area limitation, but that’s okay.

 

At about the same time as the Jubilee challenge was announced by the society they also announced that ready to run P4 points were going to be available from British Finescale.  That probably solves what I find hardest with P4.  The EM versions have had good reviews so the P4 should be good.

 

So I am going to give the Jubilee challenge a shot.   Having a deadline really helps focus the mind. However, instead of laying track on the baseboard the last couple of weeks I’ve done an inventory of rolling stock.  The conclusion is I am going to need a few more wagons! The question is how long should I make my trains?  A friend of mine suggests that a train that is more than one third of the scenic length of your layout is too long.  But given that on one track the scenic length is a meter between the two bridges that makes a train as nothing much more than the steam railmotor. Even my friends DMU wouldn’t be permitted. Whereas in reality trains of up to 80 wagons were seen on that route. Now I can’t manage 80 wagons and have any wagons left over for the other trains. But I do feel that I should run a train where the loco is hidden by one bridge and the brake van is hidden by the other bridge.  What do you think?

 

On a more important topic, I’m looking for a recommendation for someone who can supply me custom flat pack baseboards for a curved section. It looks like my first choice will be taking too long to laser cut those boards.  I found a local supplier who can do all the other boards but will not do boards that don’t have 90 degree corners.

[Penrhos1920]

Yeah the kits for the 2 scenic boards have arrived and this is a dry run of building the first board

 

[Captain Kernow]

Glad to see that you are able to make some progress.

 

I noted your earlier comments about the time taken to convert stuff to P4.

 

One thing I've learned over the years with my own P4 layout - Callow Lane (only been 20 years and counting for a 9' long layout...!) - is that provided you take your time and get the track as good as you possibly can, then things like compensation and springing really aren't necessary, just plenty of weight and possible some sprung buffers (I use 3-links).

 

Converting Bachmann panniers and 56XXs with drop-in wheels is also a lot quicker than assembling a High Level or even Comet chassis, nice though they are (although Gibson is really the only place to go for the drop-in wheels, though).

 

I've also found that Rapido wagons are normally very easy to convert and only need a little attention to the brake shoes to enable the P4 wheels to fit. One other dodge is that I use 12mm Black Beetle wheels instead of 12.5mm 3-hole discs. The absence of holes isn't that obvious from normal viewing distances. I've also found that Accurascale's OO wheels are just under 12mm in diameter anyway (not 12.5mm), making the use of Black Beetle 12mm wheels there also something to think about.

 

Either way, good luck with the project.

 

[Mikkel]

2 hours ago, Penrhos1920 said:

Yeah the kits for the 2 scenic boards have arrived and this is a dry run of building the first board

 

 

You know, I saw that photo and it reminded me of something, but I couldn't remember what. Then the penny dropped.

 

On 02/06/2022 at 17:59, Penrhos1920 said:

 

 

So already you have created the right associations.

 

And if I understand correctly we will also be seeing this: https://artuk.org/discover/artworks/penrhos-junction-161106 ?

 

 

Edited February 29 by Mikkel
Autocorrect, bah

[Penrhos1920]

2 hours ago, Mikkel said:

So already you have created the right associations.

 

And if I understand correctly we will also be seeing this: https://artuk.org/discover/artworks/penrhos-junction-161106 ?

 

 

 

Definitely.  That will be the other scenic break.  My son is currently printing the first of the viaduct piers.

[Penrhos1920]

My son has done 2 test prints of the end of one of the viaduct piers.  The blue one is with a 0.2mm nozzle, the other is 0.4mm.  The 0.2 looks better but I’m reserving final judgment until I’ve painted them.

 

Yesterday I had a day out at the NRM archives.  I had reserved several rolls of drawings from Swindon C&W. I had a successful day looking at drawings of GWR Crocodiles loaded with buoys from the factory at Pontypridd that would have travelled via Penrhos, drawings of the wagons themselves and drawings of the coaches built by the GWR specifically for the Cardiff valleys.  

 

Whilst having lunch I saw this signal post.  The somersault arms could easily have been from the valleys.   Does the finial tell someone what line this was from?  I’m puzzled by the arrangement of the counterweights.  Why are there 3?  

[saxokid]

On 10/03/2024 at 20:49, Penrhos1920 said:

My son has done 2 test prints of the end of one of the viaduct piers.  The blue one is with a 0.2mm nozzle, the other is 0.4mm.  The 0.2 looks better but I’m reserving final judgment until I’ve painted them.

 

Yesterday I had a day out at the NRM archives.  I had reserved several rolls of drawings from Swindon C&W. I had a successful day looking at drawings of GWR Crocodiles loaded with buoys from the factory at Pontypridd that would have travelled via Penrhos, drawings of the wagons themselves and drawings of the coaches built by the GWR specifically for the Cardiff valleys.  

 

Whilst having lunch I saw this signal post.  The somersault arms could easily have been from the valleys.   Does the finial tell someone what line this was from?  I’m puzzled by the arrangement of the counterweights.  Why are there 3?  

Now following your progress 👍👍