GC tender clarification needed please

[Daddyman]

Hello, 

I'm currently working on making a Hornby D49 presentable (i.e. nothing remains but the footplate and the cab sides - and even the latter are suspect) and want to run it with a GC tender as a Scottish-based loco. However, I know nothing about the GC other than the fact that their tenders are a minefield. I have a Rod Neep/Perseverance kit for the tender, which caters for all variations, but I'm having trouble making sense of which variation(s?) was/were coupled to this class. 

 

According to Rod Neep's instructions a self/trimming (ST) tender can be identified by the top edge of the front coping plate being curved upwards. All the D49 photos I can find show them coupled to a tender with this feature. However, if I understand the instructions correctly, these tenders should also have long coal plates, which they do not seem - to my untrained eye - to have. Rod also says that tenders with visible (and short) coal rails are not ST, but Yeadon shows a tender with this type of rail in combination with the curved coping plate of an ST, coupled to a D49. 

 

Isinglass then complicate things: they show three tender bodies with the width of the footplate on all of them corresponding to the wide parts supplied in the kit. The front coping plate also has the convex curve. These two features would seem to suggest all were ST. However, they show (1) coal rails/plates that correspond to neither the long ones nor the short ones supplied in the kit but are closer to the short ones, and (2) the position of the sloping section of the coal space corresponding to the non-ST drawing supplied with the kit. Given that Isinglass miss at least one loco fitted with a GC tender in their list, and the shape of the rebuilt tender's distinctive upper edge is far from convincing, I'm inclined to trust the kit. But I'm still left with Yeadon's photos contradicting the kit's description. 

 

I wonder if any of you can help clarify all this? Isinglass supplies the tender numbers fitted to D49s, and perhaps it's possible to say "ah, yes, anything below x number was a narrow-bodied version, and anything above was ST". The numbers are in the following series: 

 

51xx

52xx

53xx

54xx

59xx

60xx

61xx

62xx

63xx

65xx

 

Final question: is there a source of GC axleboxes in W/M or L/W? I don't fancy the "do-it-yourself" ones that come with the kit. 

 

Thanks in advance! 

[Michael Edge]

There aren't that many differences, most GC locos had a 4000 gallon tender which varied only in respect of how it matched the loco it was attached to. This involved the side sheets/platform width at the front and the vertical handrail which were set to match the cab width. Some had water pickup, some not, according to use. Sandboxes were often fitted at the front. The same basic design was also built as 3250 gallon capacity with lower sides, otherwise identical. The self trimming version was only fitted to D11 Directors and B3 4-6-0s as far as I know, this has a wider tank so the turn out of the coping plate at the top is less pronounced, otherwise differences are inside the coal space.

We do an etched kit for the 4000/3250 tender including moulded axleboxes/springs (including the longer springs on the centre axle).

[Daddyman]

There aren't that many differences, most GC locos had a 4000 gallon tender which varied only in respect of how it matched the loco it was attached to. This involved the side sheets/platform width at the front and the vertical handrail which were set to match the cab width. Some had water pickup, some not, according to use. Sandboxes were often fitted at the front. The same basic design was also built as 3250 gallon capacity with lower sides, otherwise identical. The self trimming version was only fitted to D11 Directors and B3 4-6-0s as far as I know, this has a wider tank so the turn out of the coping plate at the top is less pronounced, otherwise differences are inside the coal space.

We do an etched kit for the 4000/3250 tender including moulded axleboxes/springs (including the longer springs on the centre axle).

Thanks, Mike. So you're saying the only wide-tank versions were ST, and all types of coal plates could be fitted to them - short or long, and with plated rails, or with plates only? Here are Rod Neep's instructions: 

 

The D49 tenders mostly came from J11s, O4s, Q4s and D9s, according to Isinglass. 

[Michael Edge]

The original coal rails were plated in over the years in different ways, sometimes on the outside, sometimes inside. Later tenders were built with solid raves. I would have thought that the D49 tenders were more likely to have come from D9s and Q4s since the O4s and J11s had much longer lives. Some D49s had rebuilt versions of the tender, the RCTS books detail this and show some examples. As far as I know no D49s had self trimming tenders. 

[Daddyman]

Thanks again, so you're saying that Rod Neep's two identifying features of self-trimming tenders (curved top to front coping plate, and long raves as opposed to coal rail) are not reliable, and that if no D49 had a ST tender, then Isinglass are wrong in showing them with wide bodies (i.e. 8'2" over footplate and 7'8" over body)? That is, both Neep and Isinglass are wrong? See edit below. 

 

Isinglass says 5 or 6 came from O4s and 10 from J11s; only two from D9 and one from B5.

 

The RCTS book is no good - just tells you how to distinguish a G/S tender from a GC! Otherwise, just says they were all 4000, but which of the 4 different types of 4000? 

 

The ones that received new bodies came from J11, Q4 and O4, but that leaves me none the wiser. Isinglass again says they had an 8'2" platform, suggesting they were rebuilt from STs. 

 

EDIT: turns out I read Neep's notes wrong: ST did not have the curved top edge on the coping plate. That clarifies things slightly. 

 

I've found to my surprise that I have a Yeadon on D5s to D12s and they call the 4000-gallon tenders fitted to some of these classes "standard" despite the fact that those attached to some classes clearly have the valance curving in at the front footstep and some don't.  

 

So I think I've - ahem - narrowed it down to narrow body, narrow footplate and parallel valances for a D49 - and Isinglass in fact show the narrow body, with their 31mm body width corresponding to the narrow parts supplied in the kit. Yes, I think I've solved it - my confusion was all down to misreading Neep. 

 

Thanks, Mike. 

[65179]

I think you are slightly misunderstanding what Mike is trying to say. The instructions by Rod Neep are correct insofar as they refer to the self-trimming tenders having the front coalplate with turned up ends and flat middle. They were all also built with solid coalguards in contrast to many of the earlier 4000 gallon tenders. Yeadon Register states that these tenders were only ever fitted to classes D11/1, D11/2, B3 and B7. The D11/2 tenders lacked water pick up apparatus. These tenders were the same width over coalguards, but wider over the tank and so can be distinguished by a reduced flare of the top of the body sides.

 

When I saw the preserved D49 last summer. It clearly had a tender with a coalplate with one smooth curve and was not self trimming - no idea of its history though.

 

Yeadon gives the tender numbers for all these tenders and indicates where they came from.

 

The drawings in volume 2 of Locomotives of the Great Central gives 8 ft 3 and 8 ft 9 over platforms for the two types with the ST type being the wider.

 

 

Simon

[Daddyman]

Yes, I was misunderstanding what Mike was saying, mostly, as I said in my edit because I was labouring under a misapprehension of the coping shape plates. 

 

Isinglass also gives the numbers for the tenders - hence my list of them in the first post. Unfortunately, not knowing what types of tenders were fitted to the classes they came from, that didn't help me much. As Rod Neep's instructions point out, there are still 2 types of non-ST 4000-gallon tender to be confused about, but your dimensions confirm that D49s had the narrow footplate type - thanks - and I can only assume they were coupled to the type with parallel valances and not the type with "footplate wider at the front" (Neep) and the valances kinked in. These seem to have been common on D10s, which did not donate tenders to D49s. 

[Shed Driver]

Hi

 

I cant find my copy of the drawing but Isinglass does a separate drawing for the  GC tenders attached to the D49 which has a lot of the usual information.  The drawing also covers the GC tenders which had their tanks scraped and replaced with  flat sided tanks which were similar to the LNER standard..  I made the mistake of using a Dave Alexander Tender kit for Roxburghshire and had to remove everything above the footplate.

 

Norman Blackburn

 

Found the Drawing No 4/404  Great Central Tenders 4000 Gal Original and Rebuilt as Coupled to D49 Class

[Horsetan]

..... your dimensions confirm that D49s had the narrow footplate type - thanks - and I can only assume they were coupled to the type with parallel valances ....

 

Here's a back view of 246

[Daddyman]

Hi

 

I cant find my copy of the drawing but Isinglass does a separate drawing for the  GC tenders attached to the D49 which has a lot of the usual information.  The drawing also covers the GC tenders which had their tanks scraped and replaced with  flat sided tanks which were similar to the LNER standard..  I made the mistake of using a Dave Alexander Tender kit for Roxburghshire and had to remove everything above the footplate.

 

Norman Blackburn

 

Found the Drawing No 4/404  Great Central Tenders 4000 Gal Original and Rebuilt as Coupled to D49 Class

Yes, that's the one I'm using thanks. Their representation of the shape of the top edge of the rebuilt tenders is very poor, though - far too gentle curves. 

 

Interesting, Roxburghshire is one I'm thinking of. Problem is, I'd have to throw most of this nice Perseverance kit away... 

 

I hope you removed everything below the footplate too! 

 

 

Here's a back view of 246

Snap! 

[Michael Edge]

You can build just about any version of this tender apart from the self trimming ones from our kit.

[t-b-g]

The tender behind 246 Morayshire is one of the former ROD tenders. the round filler cap gives it away. the tenders built for the D49s in Scotland had the same type of D shaped boxes at the back (which in most cases contained the water scoop operating gear). One source suggested that was so the gear could be fitted easily later if required. The visible difference is the lack of the wheel on the front of the tender and the scoop underneath. The internal coal space looks just the same whether or not it has water pick up gear.

 

Another giveaway is that the standard tenders and the ROD ones have a fire iron bracket shaped like a U with curly tops. The self trimmers have a crucifix shaped bracket.

 

Butler Henderson has a self trimming tender and I got the opportunity (with properly requested permission I should add) to have a good look at it at Barrow Hill a while ago.

 

A few of my snaps are attached.

[Daddyman]

You can build just about any version of this tender apart from the self trimming ones from our kit.

Do you have a price, Mike? I'd like one full kit and one extra set of axleboxes. Then I'll make yours with the GCR body, and use the Perseverance for the underframe of a rebuilt version. 

 

PM me if you prefer and I'll organise the payment. 

[Michael Edge]

Kit is £30 + £1.50 postage, another £3 will get you a  second set of axleboxes.

[Daddyman]

I posted a cheque to Mike on Tuesday and the tender kit was waiting for me when I got home on Friday. Thanks Mike. 

 

And it's not just the service that's good. The etches and resin castings are to the usual superb standard. 

 

Now, about this V4.... 

[Daddyman]

Does anyone have conclusive proof - or a strong opinion - as to whether the raves (or coal rails) on the GC 4000-gallon tender were flush to the edge of the flare, or set back behind the beading? None of the photos I can find of D49s in the wild are conclusive. This photo (in captivity) seems to show it flush: 

 

...whereas on this one, it appears to be set back behind the beading (arrowed), so that the beading stands proud: 

 

I know for sure the later self-trimming tenders as fitted to the D11/2s were set back so that the beading stood proud, and I'm inclined to think it's the same on the 4000-gallon tenders too. 

 

Thanks in advance.