Abbotswood and Norton Junctions - layout build

[Phil Bullock]

Hi Liam

 

Westerns were common on Padd - Cheltenhams via Swindon and Gloucester - and from the early 70s to the end not uncommon on the Padd - Brums via Banbury

 

But never common on Padd - Worcesters - Worcester men largely didn't sign them so had to be an out and back from Oxford if one was used.

 

They did turn up occasionally however...

 

And once the clayliner was re-routed they were not uncommon at Worcester on freights

 

http://www.miac.org.uk/class52.html#brd1011

 

Phil

[RBAGE]

Hello Phil,

Pointwork certainly looks timber built, which I think was quite normal at the time. The pointwork looks as if it is chaired. Does this mean that the rail would be bullhead? I think so.

Bob

[Clive Mortimore]

Hello Phil,

Pointwork certainly looks timber built, which I think was quite normal at the time. The pointwork looks as if it is chaired. Does this mean that the rail would be bullhead? I think so.

Bob

Hi Bob

 

I thought it was chaired, but if you look towards the crossing vee end it is Pandrol clips. What we are seeing at the switch end are the slide base plates. For Phil's new layout if he wants the track to be as close to the prototype as possible are photos of the trackwork in the late sixties early seventies. There were a lot of flatbottom track and points around the system but apart form the main routes not too much was supported by Pandrol clips, in fact many lines went from bullhead track to concrete sleeper CWR with Panrol clips. Missing out wooden or concrete sleeper with other types of clips and baseplates.

[Chris M]

Two photos that might be of interest as they show the track at Norton quite well. I don't know the date. Modelling the signalman collecting the token would be a challenge so I guess that's why you are doing double track.

 

 

Edited October 13, 2017 by Chris M

[Enterprisingwestern]

Cant?

 

Mike.

[Clive Mortimore]

Cant?

 

Mike.

Micheal, the word is cannot.

 

Seriously I see what you mean about the cant in the curved track.

 

 

Two photos that might be of interest as they show the track at Norton quite well. I don't know the date. Modelling the signalman collecting the token would be a challenge so I guess that's why you are doing double track.

 

31norton2.jpg

 

31worcester.jpg

Hi Chris

 

Not being from that part of the world I don't know when the line was singled, but I would imagine that all the junction point work would have been renewed at the same time so any photos of the single line junction would possibly be the wrong type of track from before the alterations. I still haven't found a photo before the line was singled, but I did spot one with a Western in it.

[Clive Mortimore]

I have found a 1965 photo of an 8F (a real engine) at Norton, all the track looks bullhead. http://www.rcts.org.uk/features/archive/search.htm?company=LMSR&subtype=&class=8F&location=&srch=&page=2

http://www.rcts.org.uk/photographs/archive/380/MM/MM00125C.jpg

 

Would the track have been renewed between 65 and when the junction was singled?

[Phil Bullock]

That's a very good question Clive and I would have supported your logic except....

 

From 1970

 

http://www.na3t.org/road/photo/JM12391

 

Looks plain track Conco and turnouts wooden to me...

 

Norton - Oxford was singled Autumn 71 - and Abbotswood box closed March 69 but most of our power is based on 1970 so we have to stretch the Abbotswood box being open beyond 69 - so 69 to 71 is really our time frame for the infrastructure, Abbotswood box and semaphores excepted

 

Thanks everyone for chipping in!

 

Phil

[Phil Bullock]

Two photos that might be of interest as they show the track at Norton quite well. I don't know the date. Modelling the signalman collecting the token would be a challenge so I guess that's why you are doing double track.

 

31norton2.jpg

 

31worcester.jpg

 

 

Chris with the line singled and a TOPS 31 on the returning Honeybourne tip trip working I reckon looking at the trees on the bank in the shot of the 31 crossing over compared to this shot

 

 

Which was winter 76/77 that yours was taken a year or two before that.

 

Cheers

 

Phil

Edited October 14, 2017 by Phil Bullock

[Phil Bullock]

Oh look

 

FB on the Cotswold line in 1963..

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/143906024@N05/31793831180/in/album-72157677513003395/

 

Phil

[Clive Mortimore]

Hi Phil

 

The 1970 photo is of the crossover and yes it is flatbottom with Pandrol clips. Plan track C&L Fast Track or Peco concrete sleepers and Pandrol clips. Points C&L point timbers, and Peco Pandrol clips and slide chairs or copper clad sleepers and Peco stuff used cosmetically or a Colin Craig kit.

 

Th 1963 photo is great, the track nearest the camera is held in place on its wooden sleepers with BR mk1 baseplates and clips, the track is 60 ft panels, giving that Clickity-Click sound. The track the Castle is running on is concrete sleepers F19 design, held in place with SHC clips and is continuous welded, no visible fishplates. Colin does the Mk 1 bits but no one does the SHC clip. But don't tell anyone about this track because we all know that GWR locos only ran on bullhead track held in place with two bolt chairs.

 

Looking at on Old Maps the 1967-8 map shows the crossover Abbotswood side of Woodbury Lane bridge. The 1970 crossover is the Worcester side, as it is today according to Google Maps. Could the old crossover been replaced before the line was singled but the junction points and crossing been the old track until the change?

[Phil Bullock]

Interesting - the bracket signal was also relocated, further back IIRC

 

Prior to singling the Cotswold line the cross over would have been for shunt moves only - low speed - whereas with singling it became the path for down Cotswold line trains to gain the correct line to Shrub Hill - higher speed - and was therefore no doubt shallower and longer, perhaps accounting for the relocation

 

Cant find a pre singling photo though....yet!

 

Perhaps I need a copy of this...

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Worcester-Patch-Last-Steam-age-Signalmen/dp/1906419213

 

And this is a cracking web page .... but not quite old enough...

 

http://www.roscalen.com/signals/Worcester/NortonJct.htm

 

What we need is something like this but for the 1971 works at Norton

 

http://www.miac.org.uk/1973signals.html

 

And the annual Worcester railwayman's reunion is in two weeks time - loads of knowledge there - but it clashes with the Cheltenham show!

 

So have fired off an enquiry for a photo achive search to Kidderminster Railway museum - lets see what they come up with!

 

Phil

Edited October 14, 2017 by Phil Bullock

[HillsideDepot]

Interesting - the bracket signal was also relocated, further back IIRC

 

Prior to singling the Cotswold line the cross over would have been for shunt moves only - low speed - whereas with singling it became the path for down Cotswold line trains to gain the correct line to Shrub Hill - higher speed - and was therefore no doubt shallower and longer, perhaps accounting for the relocation

 

Cant find a pre singling photo though....yet!

 

Perhaps I need a copy of this...

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Worcester-Patch-Last-Steam-age-Signalmen/dp/1906419213

 

It's a nice book, but doesn't help with your question Phil, as it covers the present era (well, 2010, when it was published).

[Phil Bullock]

It's a nice book, but doesn't help with your question Phil, as it covers the present era (well, 2010, when it was published).

 

Thanks Adrian that's saved the dosh...lets see what KRM come up with. Worcester is a bit of a backwater unfortunately and the immediate post steam era is poorly covered nationally....

 

Have just had a thought that a couple of my books may just have something - off for a rummage, Michael Mensing  did visit....

 

Phil

Edited October 14, 2017 by Phil Bullock

[Liam]

Interesting - the bracket signal was also relocated, further back IIRC

 

And the annual Worcester railwayman's reunion is in two weeks time - loads of knowledge there - but it clashes with the Cheltenham show!

 

Phil

Ah, I knew there was something going on that weekend, thanks for the reminder Phil.

 

You shouldn't have any trouble with a rummage through the photo archive at the museum at Kiddy - although on a sales day, my father came across and purchased some photos of Beattock station in steam days, one with two small boys standing on the platform watching a 'Black Five' roar past. Were they him and my uncle? Oh the speculation!

Edited October 14, 2017 by SVRlad

[Phil Bullock]

Ah, I knew there was something going on that weekend, thanks for the reminder Phil.

 

You shouldn't have any trouble with a rummage through the photo archive at the museum at Kiddy - although on a sales day, my father came across and purchased some photos of Beattock station in steam days, one with two small boys standing on the platform watching a 'Black Five' roar past. Where they him and my uncle. Oh the speculation!

 

Ah yes - just as I would like to think I am on the platform at New Street in this video clip...

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JyYDT3kFI14

 

My first ever Warship cop was at New Street, D847, Autumn 1967

 

Phil

Edited October 14, 2017 by Phil Bullock

[SteveC32]

Phil in answer to your point of ‘Vulnerable in transport’ how about this as an idea, I transport Readham (8 boards on 2 racks on castors [with locks], complete with the support legs). The racks have locking brackets to stop the boards moving in transit and foam to cushion and bumps in the road. The racks also make it quicker and easier to get into and out of venues

[Clive Mortimore]

Hi Phil

 

I hope you don't think i am an expert on track, I just know how to read.

[Phil Bullock]

Phil in answer to your point of ‘Vulnerable in transport’ how about this as an idea, I transport Readham (8 boards on 2 racks on castors [with locks], complete with the support legs). The racks have locking brackets to stop the boards moving in transit and foam to cushion and bumps in the road. The racks also make it quicker and easier to get into and out of venues

 

Many thanks for sharing Steve

 

Yes, James had said you had done something along these lines....was going to have a word with you about it

 

Current plan is to pair boards up to make boxes for transport but will take advice from those doing construction on that

 

Cheers

 

Phil

[Phil Bullock]

Hi Phil

 

I hope you don't think i am an expert on track, I just know how to read.

 

Oh Clive - you have destroyed the illusion now!

 

Yes was looking at Colins excellent site earlier - can see a point kit winging its way over here

 

The visible part of the layout will only need 12 switches and 2 crossings....

 

Phil

[The Stationmaster]

Hi Bob

 

I thought it was chaired, but if you look towards the crossing vee end it is Pandrol clips. What we are seeing at the switch end are the slide base plates. For Phil's new layout if he wants the track to be as close to the prototype as possible are photos of the trackwork in the late sixties early seventies. There were a lot of flatbottom track and points around the system but apart form the main routes not too much was supported by Pandrol clips, in fact many lines went from bullhead track to concrete sleeper CWR with Panrol clips. Missing out wooden or concrete sleeper with other types of clips and baseplates.

 

That's the new, resited, crossover.  The original one was bullhead rail (on timber sleepers of course) and was succeeded by the present one, which is in a different position 80 yards further west, in September 1969.  Singling to Evesham took place in  January 1971.  The Up main Inner Home was resited 308 yards further from the 'box and became the Up Main Home as part of the September 1989 1969 alterations.

 

Abbotswood Jcn signalbox closed in March 1969 and I've an idea that motor worked distant signal might date from then.  

 

EDIT to correct date typo - but no doubt folk worked out what really happened, I hope.

Edited October 17, 2017 by The Stationmaster

[Phil Bullock]

Many thanks Mike - hoped you would be along before too long!

 

So for 1970 sounds like we need:

 

Crossover to west of bridge - FB on timber - and up outer (wrong side I think see http://colourrail.co.uk/api/image/medium/792f1e2e-49c7-4492-a0fb-2492ad447c0f) and inner homes.

 

Theres an up colour light distant back to the west of the M5 too IIRC...but that will be off the layout.

 

Re that photo - what is 1N38 doing heading in that direction I wonder - and stopping at Norton Halt????

 

Phil

[Joseph_Pestell]

I think that all your reasoning on the new set-up is sound. And I am looking forward to seeing a trackplan. How you arrange the fiddleyards is going to be massively important in getting the best out of this layout. Are both routes going to be "roundy-roundy"? There may be better solutions.

 

And one other plea. The one time that I have seen this layout at an exhibition, the lighting at the venue was fairly awful. It really did not show the layout off as it should have done. Please incorporate a lighting rig.

[Phil Bullock]

Thanks for your thoughts Joseph

How long ago was it you saw us? We do have a lighting rig but don't put it up if we feel the lighting in the hall is good enough - as it was at Swansea - as it obstructs some viewing angles.

 

You are right about the fiddle yards! Yes two roundy-roundys with separate fiddle yards linked by the Abbotswood - Norton chord - but some additional dead end roads in each yard for end to end running too

 

At least that's the original concept but it could change.....

 

Phil

[Joseph_Pestell]

Just been looking at OS maps of the site.

 

Is the layout going to be L-shaped? If not, it seems difficult to make each route a roundy-roundy in anything like a reasonable space without going to figure-of-8 shapes and a lot of below-scene underpasses. For a rectangular layout, 27' x X', the simplest option would seem to be two out and back lines but the best might be a figure-of-8 low level (Midland) with an out-and-back (FY-FY) upper level (GW).