Class 20 Nose/Cab Configurations

[scottystitch]

Hi all,

 

Can anyone point me to a resource or resources that can give me details of the configuration of the nose and cab ends of the 20s, i.e. discs, code box, etc., and any other differences.

 

My modelling period is ostensibly 62-64, but may creep into 66 if I don't run Coronations at the same time.

 

Thanks

 

Scott

[CloggyDog]

Hi all,

 

Can anyone point me to a resource or resources that can give me details of the configuration of the nose and cab ends of the 20s, i.e. discs, code box, etc., and any other differences.

 

My modelling period is ostensibly 62-64, but may creep into 66 if I don't run Coronations at the same time.

 

Thanks

 

Scott

 

D8000-127 discs, with D8028-34/70-127 also having tablet recesses in the cabsides and deeper cabside windows for use in Scotland. Delivered 1957-62 in all-over green, small yellow panels added later (much ater in some cases!) D8000-19 were Pilot scheme, with oval buffers, the remainder with round oleos.

 

D8128-199/8300-327 4-character headcode boxes, round oleos. Delivered 1966-68, with D8128-67/69 delivered in green with small yellow panels, 8168/70-199/8300-327 delivered in blue with full yellow ends.

 

So, even with creep into 66, you'd be looking at disc examples, plus maybe a very shiny new box example.

[uax6]

And the Pilot scheme batch had plain (not perforated) compensation beams on the bogies.......

 

Andy G

[scottystitch]

Thank you both very much.

 

I wasn't looking for the answer, just a nudge in the direction of where to find the answer, so thank you for answering so thoroughly.

 

Best

 

Scott

[keefer]

Something like this, a Scottish one with tablet catcher recess, on BarkingBill's Flickr:

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/barkingbill/2127672366

[w124bob]

D8046 plain green currently on Ebay for £75 buy now, new to Hornsey in 1959 then Finsbury Park in '60 staying until '66. If you want a tablet catcher machine there are at least 2 D8028's this was a scotish machine untill '66. D8129 the first headcode box loco was not delivered until Feb '66, so I'm guessing it's going to be a disk version to best fit your time frame. I'm using this site for my info http://www.brdatabase.info/locoqry.php?action=locodata&type=D&id=8122&loco=8122 .

[scottystitch]

Ah, to clarify gents, I model N Gauge (1/148)

[CloggyDog]

And the Pilot scheme batch had plain (not perforated) compensation beams on the bogies.......

 

Andy G

 

Pilot scheme locos plain/flat beams

Production disc locos fluted beams

headcode box locos fluted with holes

 

 

There were also variations in location of the air pipes (lower edge or mid headstock) and things like the nose-end grabs on the final dozen (which also had the Slow Speed Control 'patches' on the cab front/rear)

[Clive Mortimore]

Pilot scheme locos plain/flat beams

Production disc locos fluted beams

headcode box locos fluted with holes

 

 

There were also variations in location of the air pipes (lower edge or mid headstock) and things like the nose-end grabs on the final dozen (which also had the Slow Speed Control 'patches' on the cab front/rear)

Wot about the ladder on the green uns with disc? When did they disappear, my Hornby Doublo one has one.

[royaloak]

headcode box locos fluted with holes

Are you sure they all had the holes?

I thought it was only the last 20 or so.

[jim.snowdon]

Pilot scheme locos plain/flat beams

Production disc locos fluted beams

headcode box locos fluted with holes

 

And how many bogies got swapped around between locomotives during overhauls?

 

Jim

[rodent279]

When did Slow Speed Control first appear? Was it around in the 1960's?

[keefer]

iirc the ScR tablet catcher ones had the dummy end of the Blue star control jumper in the top RH corner of the bufferbeam (as in the pic I linked to).

'normal' locos had it lower down, near buffer level.

Not sure if all locos were fitted with through steam pipes, the Scottish ones were as they were often used with other boiler-fitted classes e.g. Fort William trains/sleepers. e.g. if you had cl.27 + cl.20, it saved having to re-jig the locos when running round.

[w124bob]

The position of the jumper cable dummy socket will tally with tablet catchers and snowploughs, ei higher up the rt corner for a tablet catcher loco to keep the cable way from the plough as best as possible. Ladders are a bit hit and miss and the only way is photos, as with steam pipes. The air pipes postion is again related to the fitting of ploughs, no plough, pipes under the bufferbeam as per 20067 below . Coalville July '80 close to as built.

20052 at Frodingham with sream pipe https://www.flickr.com/photos/86020500@N06/7930097526/

Ploughs were painted black in the '60's and were rare as far as I can tell.

Edited January 11, 2018 by w124bob

[Tim Hall]

iirc the ScR tablet catcher ones had the dummy end of the Blue star control jumper in the top RH corner of the bufferbeam (as in the pic I linked to).

'normal' locos had it lower down, near buffer level.

Not sure if all locos were fitted with through steam pipes, the Scottish ones were as they were often used with other boiler-fitted classes e.g. Fort William trains/sleepers. e.g. if you had cl.27 + cl.20, it saved having to re-jig the locos when running round.

 

I think only a few had through steam pipes, will check spotting books from the 80s later....

[w124bob]

When did Slow Speed Control first appear? Was it around in the 1960's?

Not till the '80's with the exception of those from 217 to 227 which got SS for MGR work in Scotland, execpt 20228 which was renumbered out of sequence. The telltale is an plate under the drivers window. https://www.flickr.com/photos/86020500@N06/7930097526/

[CloggyDog]

Wot about the ladder on the green uns with disc? When did they disappear, my Hornby Doublo one has one.

 

I think all 127 disc locos were delivered with ladders, but they started being removed pretty much as soon as D8127 was delivered, especially LMR-allocated locos.

 

Are you sure they all had the holes?

I thought it was only the last 20 or so.

 

Nope, all 100 of the box-headcode batch. Here's D8130 within  few years of delivery, clearly showing holed/fluted beams

 

Barrow Hill. by curly42, on Flickr

 

And how many bogies got swapped around between locomotives during overhauls?

 

Jim

 

Most of them! Not uncommon to see different bogies under the same loco from around the early-70s onwards.

 

About the only original feature which stuck was oval buffers on the Pilot Scheme batch D8000-19. While some of these were retro-fitted with round Oleos (and some back to ovals again), but it seems ovals were never fitted to the later disc or box batches.

 

Other spotting features - 4 sandboxes per bogies on the disc locos as delivered, outer ones only on the box locos.

Inner sandboxes on the disc locos removed from the early-70s onwards, with the curious exception of 20034 which kept them well into the late-1980s.

 

20 034 Toton by Alan Monk, on Flickr

 

Tablet recesses plated over during the 1970s, all done by 1980 (but, as with my pic of 20034, often rotted through to indicate where the recess used to be)

Edited January 11, 2018 by CloggyDog

[jim.snowdon]

 

Most of them! Not uncommon to see different bogies under the same loco from around the early-70s onwards.

 

About the only original feature which stuck was oval buffers on the Pilot Scheme batch D8000-19. While some of these were retro-fitted with round Oleos (and some back to ovals again), but it seems ovals were never fitted to the later disc or box batches.

Precisely - as far as the workshops were concerned, a bogie was a bogie, and any loco would simply get the next available pair of bogies appropriate to that class. It's something that many modellers never generally realise and end up getting all carried away about prototype accuracy, forgetting that a great deal of what happened when to a locomotive through its life is down to random factors in respect of how it was used.

 

Jim

[rodent279]

What was the reason for choosing oval or Oleo buffers? Why did some have oval and some Oleo? Is there a practical or operational difference?

[Covkid]

I think only a few had through steam pipes, will check spotting books from the 80s later....

 

20045 and 20085 were retrofitted with steam pipes for 1980s West Highland work

Flickr link to 20045

https://www.flickr.com/photos/eastfield/8448857250/in/photolist-sq29NY-dTPqWd-dSAAUA-UVZFZL-oofshX-dU25by-dSC3No-Vy5tRk-dnCm3L-5yoyuU-4sji5e-apfmVJ-arCfJc-23isvVP-Xizi96-h8y2fK-iggdMG-UVAcFJ-i7coSy-89QLLC-VADr-giZgK-bDYGvo-pnAJUe-ioUd-2EdcH-L46PJ-dgwRM-oF5wqy-QJo8K2-QMm3-9Aj8f-5kPDsi-7PJxGe-3c7xxK-akKikp-cjJjUm-QMk8-ioX3-QMkL-QTsqK-QRwaG-UAzpkH-L46CG-6uXeiA-rpbTuS-6kS8iB-dVnc5j-9vJAF5-L4kkt

 

Flickr link to 20085

https://www.flickr.com/photos/60566499@N03/14446807511/in/photolist-iDtwwK-T5n3yQ-Ukh5LA-9dySrm-o1BEy8-aEzteE-WzVuJD-TmAsTL-Vqnraa-fkowtT-4UVwow-4QSf4T-X8kqQf-4xiJCB-4QEudG-4MeLmv-TwGmE5-4vTtPC-4UtSyY-hQ94W8-4BsUiw-qFnbrB-4MZkM9-4URJfB-4QoMTq-dKQ2E2-XNtu5J-4QoMdw-TfoG6Q-UZhUX6-4caJkY-9vKDsK-4URJKF-89UoFb-4UVKL5-4jq8eq-4URje2-4UWc1f-fqGBoS-4QoMey-4URny2-67acki-4UVzKw-4QoM2E-4QoMmS-4QoKKJ

[45125]

 

I think all 127 disc locos were delivered with ladders, but they started being removed pretty much as soon as D8127 was delivered, especially LMR-allocated locos.

 

 

Nope, all 100 of the box-headcode batch. Here's D8130 within  few years of delivery, clearly showing holed/fluted beams

 

Barrow Hill. by curly42, on Flickr

 

 

Most of them! Not uncommon to see different bogies under the same loco from around the early-70s onwards.

 

About the only original feature which stuck was oval buffers on the Pilot Scheme batch D8000-19. While some of these were retro-fitted with round Oleos (and some back to ovals again), but it seems ovals were never fitted to the later disc or box batches.

 

Other spotting features - 4 sandboxes per bogies on the disc locos as delivered, outer ones only on the box locos.

Inner sandboxes on the disc locos removed from the early-70s onwards, with the curious exception of 20034 which kept them well into the late-1980s.

 

20 034 Toton by Alan Monk, on Flickr

 

Tablet recesses plated over during the 1970s, all done by 1980 (but, as with my pic of 20034, often rotted through to indicate where the recess used to be)

 

Not all the last 100 had the holes in the equalising beams, very hit and miss half way through the batch when delivered.

[CloggyDog]

Not all the last 100 had the holes in the equalising beams, very hit and miss half way through the batch when delivered.

 

There is certainly some photographic evidence to support that:

 

I've just trawled Flickr for early (pre-1973) photos of D8128-99 and D8300-27, finding decent photos showing the bogies of all but half-a-dozen from those number series.

(A chap by the name of Dallam Dave on Flickr seems to have snapped pretty much every 20 on it's delivery run from Vulcan Foundry)

 

From those 90+ locos, D8195, possibly 8198, possibly 8300, definitely 8310/2/5/6/8/23/24 look to have fluted beams without holes.

[jim.snowdon]

There is certainly some photographic evidence to support that:

 

I've just trawled Flickr for early (pre-1973) photos of D8128-99 and D8300-27, finding decent photos showing the bogies of all but half-a-dozen from those number series.

(A chap by the name of Dallam Dave on Flickr seems to have snapped pretty much every 20 on it's delivery run from Vulcan Foundry)

 

From those 90+ locos, D8195, possibly 8198, possibly 8300, definitely 8310/2/5/6/8/23/24 look to have fluted beams without holes.

That may be true as built, but bogies are interchangeable spare parts, and there is never any guarantee that the same bogies stayed with any given locomotive through its life.

 

Jim

[CloggyDog]

That may be true as built, but bogies are interchangeable spare parts, and there is never any guarantee that the same bogies stayed with any given locomotive through its life.

 

Jim

 

Jim, the question was more about whether ALL of the final 100 class 20s (D8128-99/8300-27) which pretty much every reference tells had the fluted beams WITH holes from new did or not.

 

Based on yesterday's Flickr trawl, which included plenty of 'on delivery' photos courtesy of 'Dallam Dave', it can be pretty conclusively shown that at least 8 had fluted beams without holes when delivered.

 

Now, it's possible that EE supplied a number of bogies intended for the final batch as spares for disc locos, then overhauled/refurbished the earlier fluted/no holes beams and fitted them to the 8+ locos identified (given they are all from the final, final batch). Or were there less than 100 pairs of fluted/holed bogies?

 

That bogies were swapped in later years isn't the issue; there is plenty of evidence to support that - I made detailed notes fin the late-80s which recorded the bogies under a number of 20s.

 

I guess the only way to be certain is if there are clear enough photos of every 20 on one particular day, so the total number of each bogie type can be counted.

 

Class 20 references have always asserted that there were 40 plain beams, 214 fluted beams and 200 fluted/holed beams. Were there additional spare bogies? 

[Wickham Green]

What was the reason for choosing oval or Oleo buffers? Why did some have oval and some Oleo? Is there a practical or operational difference?

I think the only real advantage of an oval buffer is that it's lighter than a disc of equivalent size - though, personally, I think they look better ! ......... Oval buffers, of course, need some means of keeping the long axis of the face east to west and i get the feeling that's easier to arrange with a 'traditional' sprung buffer than with an hydraulic model - and, of course the greater north-south dimension of a big disc might be an advantage on uneven track following the advent of long-wheelbase wagons : some of the class 20-frequented colliery yards I visited ( back in the days we had collieries ) had pretty dire track ..... no, I reckon they probably ALL did !