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LNWR Crewe works narrow gauge layout

09 narrow gauge lnwr micro layout dc crewe works industrial minimum gauge



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#1 luke the train spotter

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Posted 24 July 2018 - 08:21

Well I dont normally enter modeling competitions but I am interested in the weird and wonderful and Crewe works appears to have those characteristics. I plan to model it in 09 and it will be a micro layout which i hope to fill with atmosphere. I will upload more progress on here soon. I am still researching but I'm hooked!
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#2 luke the train spotter

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Posted 25 July 2018 - 07:09

Following up from my initial post yesterday, I have done some more research. From what I've found out, the narrow gauge lines were more commonplace in the smaller workshop areas and they moved around the small parts to and from these different areas. It looks like large components like boilers/frames/wheel sets were moved by large gantry cranes. There are few pictures of the wagons hauled by these little locos so modellers licence may have to be used but they would probably be very basic and well used. There are long tracks of standard gauge going into and from the erection shop which would be interesting to model. I will be modelling this layout on a micro layout so that it is 100% portable and sp that it can fit in without filling up too much space and being a nuisance. Another thing to note from looking at some pictures is the very high height of the walls and how recessed the windows are into the war. It is also completely brick built which doesnt look the cleaning. I will keep searching and share any info on here when I find it. If you are an expert on Crewe works narrow gauge, it would be very helpful if you could share your knowledge. Thanks. :)

#3 009 micro modeller

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Posted 25 July 2018 - 07:12

It all sounds very interesting. Have you been to see Pet at the NRM?

#4 Dava

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Posted 25 July 2018 - 07:20

There is a very good book on the topic from the LNWR Society, if you haven't seen it?

The bridge to the station was very impressive.

Dava

#5 JeffP

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Posted 25 July 2018 - 07:25

Some decent pics in a book, "Crewe Locomotive Works".

 

I thought it was "Wren" in the NRM, and it came from Horwich?



#6 luke the train spotter

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Posted 25 July 2018 - 07:38

Both Pet and wren are at NRM York but Pet is the one from Crewe works. I have definitely seen one of them but i can remember which one so i might have to trawl through some of my old pictures of previous visits. NRM is just a short journey away so I might try and visit it. I have found some scale drawings but I would also need to check if they are of the design used by Pet. In the meantime I need to decide which engine to model. I will also look into that book.
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#7 luke the train spotter

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Posted 25 July 2018 - 08:14

Also a couple of videos for you. Firstly, here is a video around the works and it doesnt feature any of the locos but there is some track in some of the shots:
https://m.youtube.co...h?v=LO687x8g-3s
Now to an even better video. This one actually includes 2 shots of one of the narrow gauge engines running. The quality isn't great but the footage is 100 years old. It's well the watch (the shots are at 3:15 onwards): https://m.youtube.co...0&v=zBkBudZPf84
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#8 009 micro modeller

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Posted 25 July 2018 - 09:00

Some decent pics in a book, "Crewe Locomotive Works".

I thought it was "Wren" in the NRM, and it came from Horwich?

Wren is where you go in, Pet is with the other NG exhibits (CTRL construction loco, L&B coach etc.) to the side of the Great Hall turntable.

A couple of photos if you need them, sorry about the lighting etc:
WP_20180611_13_45_02_Pro.jpg WP_20180327_16_33_04_Pro.jpg

Edited by 009 micro modeller, 25 July 2018 - 09:03 .

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#9 Argos

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Posted 25 July 2018 - 09:15

Great subject! Are you going to incorporate the spider bridge? Always a landmark structure in views of Crewe.

#10 luke the train spotter

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Posted 25 July 2018 - 10:05

Great subject! Are you going to incorporate the spider bridge? Always a landmark structure in views of Crewe.

I would love to but I dont think I will have space. I'm going to be focused on the inside of the works with probably none of the outside modelled. I will look into it though.

#11 luke the train spotter

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Posted 25 July 2018 - 10:06

Wren is where you go in, Pet is with the other NG exhibits (CTRL construction loco, L&B coach etc.) to the side of the Great Hall turntable.

A couple of photos if you need them, sorry about the lighting etc:
WP_20180611_13_45_02_Pro.jpg WP_20180327_16_33_04_Pro.jpg

Thanks, that is very helpful. Most of the pictures I have found aren't really close ups and of a front on angle.

#12 Dava

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Posted 25 July 2018 - 17:12

The book is 'Crewe Works Narrow Gauge System' by Talbot + Taylor, still available from LNWR Soc or Abe books.

Highly commended with details of the loco types, wagons and track plans of the system .

There was a Hudswell Clarke diesel loco called 'Crewe', built in 1930 which would look sweet and not be hard to do in 09 if you could find an outside crank 0-4-0 chassis. Minitrains might have one or N Drive Productions.

Dava

#13 cctransuk

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Posted 25 July 2018 - 17:42

The book is 'Crewe Works Narrow Gauge System' by Talbot + Taylor, still available from LNWR Soc or Abe books.

Highly commended with details of the loco types, wagons and track plans of the system .

There was a Hudswell Clarke diesel loco called 'Crewe', built in 1930 which would look sweet and not be hard to do in 09 if you could find an outside crank 0-4-0 chassis. Minitrains might have one or N Drive Productions.

Dava

 

ZM9 was the BR number of CREWE - and don't forget ZM32.

 

DEPARTMENTAL LMR ZM 9_01.jpg

 

DEPARTMENTAL LMR ZM 9_02.jpg

 

DEPARTMENTAL LMR ZM32_01.jpg

 

DEPARTMENTAL LMR ZM32_02.jpg

 

NOT MY COPYRIGHT; WILL REMOVE IF REQUESTED.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.


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#14 Nearholmer

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Posted 25 July 2018 - 18:40

ZM32 can be represented using the kit that Roy Link designed ...... not sure who, if anyone markets them now.

There's actually quite a lot in print about this system.

The below is very well researched indeed, and includes a lot of drawings. Mark Smithers lives hard by the NRM, so you might be able to contact him to talk - he knows more about 18" gauge railway history than any living person, I reckon!

There are contemporary descriptions in The Engineer, 'Vignes Atlas' covers it ( Vignes, Edouard (1878). Étude technique sur le Chemin de fer de Festiniog et quelques autres chemins de fer à voie étroite de l'Angleterre. Paris: Dunod. OCLC 26025340. ), and, as already mentioned, there is the LNWR society book.

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Edited by Nearholmer, 25 July 2018 - 18:42 .


#15 luke the train spotter

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Posted 25 July 2018 - 18:49

ZM9 was the BR number of CREWE - and don't forget ZM32.

DEPARTMENTAL LMR ZM 9_01.jpg

DEPARTMENTAL LMR ZM 9_02.jpg

DEPARTMENTAL LMR ZM32_01.jpg

DEPARTMENTAL LMR ZM32_02.jpg

NOT MY COPYRIGHT; WILL REMOVE IF REQUESTED.

Regards,
John Isherwood.

Thanks for sharing those photos they are very helpful! Well looks like I might be building a few locos now. I'm unsure wether to make the layout continuous run (most of the loop off scene) to allow more interesting running. The picture with the skip like wagons will be very good reference for building some.

#16 Nearholmer

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Posted 25 July 2018 - 18:57

IIRC Springside used to make a kit for that wagon; they certainly make kits for a Horwich-type loco.

http://www.springsid...s.com/id155.htm

http://www.springsid...s.com/id153.htm

#17 BigAndy

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Posted 25 July 2018 - 18:58

Depending on where you live, you could do a lot worse than visit the Crewe Heritage Centre, link here:     https://crewehc.org

 

There is a wealth of info around the site on various parts of Crewe works, and as you can see from the 360 clip on the homepage, it still has part of the defunct narrow gauge bridge and a wagon in place on top of it. Well worth a visit as part of your research.

 

Hope this helps

 

Cheers

 

Andy



#18 luke the train spotter

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Posted 25 July 2018 - 19:16

I don't mean to burst anyone's bubble but this layout isn't going to have a massive budget. As much as I would like to spend lots of money on it, I can't afford it (my total monthly modelling budget is £10 as I am only young and still in full time education) but that doesnt mean that my layout won't be quality. To keep costs down I will hand build the track and scratch build the stock bodies. I have never built a loco chassis before so the chassis will be a kato one. It may not be 100% accurate but it will be close enough. At the moment the dimensions of the layout will be no larger than 2 foot by 1 foot just as space is also a shortage for me.
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#19 009 micro modeller

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Posted 26 July 2018 - 08:43

Did ZM32 ever run at Crewe? Not that having some Horwich inspired stuff is a problem, just that for the purposes of the competition it probably needs to be Crewe/LNWR.

#20 Compound2632

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Posted 27 July 2018 - 07:30

The Crewe 18" shunters came in two varieties - Pet being one of five built in Ramsbottom's day when the works were reorganised, the others being TinyNipper, Topsy, and Midge. Webb added two more of quite different appearance - shockingly not built at Crewe but by William Rylance*, named Billy and Dickie after himself and his son. So with maybe with a standard gauge 4ft crane shunter and a 2ft 6in shunter there's scope to include a variety of the more unusual LNWR motive power. 

 

Perhaps you could include a locomotive under repair, such as this Class A compound 0-8-0 undergoing the locomotive equivalent of a scale and polish at the dentist?

 

Ref. E. Talbot, An Illustrated History of LNWR Engines (OPC). Talbot gives the impression that William Rylance was an outside firm but according to a reference in steamindex.com he was a Crewe employee.



#21 Nearholmer

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Posted 27 July 2018 - 08:04

BIlly and Dickie were quite amazing machines, nothing like conventional steam locos ...... full griff and more detailed drawings in Mr Smithers tome.

BIlly had a three-cylinder engine that is sometimes described as a 'rotary', but I think was actually a radial engine, but was later made more conventional.

My copy of Smithers is packed away while I shift rooms around at home - when I unpack, I will be able to tell you more.

As an aside, narrow gauge railways were used to prove all sorts of innovations in C19th, so BIlly was in a line that included the first practical dynamo electric loco, the first practical internal combustion loco, and several other things.

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  • IMG_0137.JPG

Edited by Nearholmer, 27 July 2018 - 08:19 .

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#22 Compound2632

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Posted 27 July 2018 - 08:21

I note the caption says "to the designs of Mr FW Webb" - the impression given by Talbot is that they were bought in - one thinks of tram engines. The photo of Billy in Talbot shows it as rebuilt with outside cylinders like Dickie; it also has a nameplate with the standard subsidiary information per Dickie, implying Crewe Works as the place of manufacture.

 

it's a shame Webb didn't go for a three-cylinder compound design with HP and LP cylinders driving the different axles, uncoupled.



#23 Andy Kirkham

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Posted 27 July 2018 - 08:49

Also a couple of videos for you. Firstly, here is a video around the works and it doesnt feature any of the locos but there is some track in some of the shots:
https://m.youtube.co...h?v=LO687x8g-3s
Now to an even better video. This one actually includes 2 shots of one of the narrow gauge engines running. The quality isn't great but the footage is 100 years old. It's well the watch (the shots are at 3:15 onwards): https://m.youtube.co...0&v=zBkBudZPf84

I am intrigued that (a) the narrow gauge loco is running at breakneck speed and (b) there seems to be no driver on the footplate.



#24 Compound2632

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Posted 27 July 2018 - 09:15

I am intrigued that (a) the narrow gauge loco is running at breakneck speed and (b) there seems to be no driver on the footplate.

 

I think the film is running a little fast but you wouldn't hang about with a Precursor backing down on you. freeze the film at around 03:23:00 - I think you can see the white-coated driver on the footplate. it's just that he's mostly hidden from view behind the dome.

 

Fascinating set of films there - I particularly like the shots of one of those heavily-pregnant Class A compound 0-8-0s is being casually craned around - hand of God?



#25 Nearholmer

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Posted 27 July 2018 - 10:11

Also, worth noting that it is common to drive small n.g. locos while walking beside them, and even to jump off, run ahead to change the points, and jump back on. B dangerous, but I've seen it done many times on industrial narrow gauge lines - the Ruston diesel loco gearbox is specifically designed to let you drive while walking.











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