Andy Y Posted August 12, 2012 Share Posted August 12, 2012 Just had confirmed via PM that some-one else suffered the same fraud attempt after buying something from the same shop. Would it be possible to PM me with more info on this please? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenny Emily Posted August 12, 2012 Share Posted August 12, 2012 Done Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted August 13, 2012 Share Posted August 13, 2012 Banks and card acquirers do their best to keep our money where it belongs - but they often trip over their own shoelaces in doing so. For example, I have been with Alliance & Leicester Giro since 1968, long before the former building society was carpetbagged, and turned from a mutual into a bank, acquiring Girobank from the Government thereafter. When I moved to France I kept the account open, and it has a little money in it. I have a cash card with Visa facilities. Now, many online sites use systems e.g. Verisign that add additional security before authorising card use. So when I attempted to use my A&L card online a while ago, up popped a need to register a password etc. Because I live in France, this proved impossible - as the card was issued in Britain, Visa required a UK address! Rang A&L's so-called helpline and got zero help, of course. Not our problem, we only hold and use your money! Santander now have A&L's accounts. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Y Posted August 13, 2012 Share Posted August 13, 2012 Just had confirmed via PM that some-one else suffered the same fraud attempt after buying something from the same shop. Thanks to all concerned. Because of the information provided the retailer has been able to take prompt action to investigate this and will ensure that the possible breach, which was outside their direct control, is addressed appropriately. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tender Posted August 13, 2012 Share Posted August 13, 2012 Just a thought. When you 'phone your bank, insurer etc, they ask you a plethora of "security questions". I sometimes wonder whether we should ask them the same. After all, how do you really know you are talking to who you think you are? Paranoia, here I come! Jeff I never give answers to 'security questions' if somebody reporting to be my bank phones me, you never know who it might be. I ask them to write, followed by a quick check on the internet banking site to check everything is OK. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Nth Degree Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 Thanks to all concerned. Because of the information provided the retailer has been able to take prompt action to investigate this and will ensure that the possible breach, which was outside their direct control, is addressed appropriately. Thank goodness someone has done something! Well done. I started reading this thread yesterday, although it was started in 2010. I am AMAZED that only NOW something has been said to the retailer! This is shockingly bad behaviour of all that have had fraudulent activity on their account, and has enabled this fraud to go unchecked for nearly TWO YEARS - from the same source! This is how card criminals make their money over a period of time. This retailer has been a gold mine for the criminals! It's all well and good being PC and protecting the innocent but what about an unsuspecting retailer whose reputation and trust will be RUINED from rumour? Do you care that little about your hobby suppliers? It is highly unlikely (and proved to be in this case) that the retailer was knowingly active in any fraud, but without alerting them to it how will they ever stop it? That would have been the second call I made, after informing my bank. And if I were the retailer, I would have been extremely grateful to have received that call so I could attempt to stop it and save the reputation of my business. I'm now not surprised at all why this (my) country is hounded by criminal wolves - it's because it's full of sheep! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Nth Degree Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 Apologies for that last statement but I'm so angry. Mostly because it's taken someone with absolutely no connection to the criminal activity or the retailer to do something about it, when it should have been the victims. Andy's not going to be there for you every time, even he doesn't have wings that big. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
orcadian Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 Thank goodness someone has done something! Well done. I started reading this thread yesterday, although it was started in 2010. I am AMAZED that only NOW something has been said to the retailer! This is shockingly bad behaviour of all that have had fraudulent activity on their account, and has enabled this fraud to go unchecked for nearly TWO YEARS - from the same source! This is how card criminals make their money over a period of time. This retailer has been a gold mine for the criminals! I'm sorry, Nth Degree, but I can't find the evidence in this thread that THE SAME RETAILER'S establishment has been linked with this for nearly two years. Jenny Emily has not publicly identified the model shop that she used, nor has Andy, nor anyone else in the thread, as far as I can tell at a glance. I agree with you that we should be very grateful to Andy for the speedy and authoritative way he has intervened to get this particular incident sorted, and I also agree with you that it is our individual responsibility to take appropriate action when we think it's happened to us. But again, I can't see the evidence in this thread that individual victims have not acted appropriately. Yes, a victim could (perhaps should) inform the management of any organisation that appears to be the source for this type of problem, but consider this - if a member of staff in a shop (any shop or retail premises) is the one committing the offence, and as a customer you phone the shop to tell them, how do you know that you are not speaking to the perpetrator? Surely, the smaller the shop, the more chance there is of that happening. Of course, a victim should as a first act contact the card issuer and own bank branch (if not the card issuer), and then, if they feel that it would be helpful, remind friends, colleague and other contacts (such as fellow Forum readers), in the general sort of terms that Jenny has appropriately used here. Richard Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Nth Degree Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 I've read this thread from start to finish. There seems to be one particular retailer that has a problem for many members here, which is intertwined with other members stories of their encounters which are not connected. I don't know why you keep mentioning Jenny Emily as there are plenty of other members who have had problems with (in their general agreement) one particular, unnamed, retailer. As a reaction to your second paragraph, I can't see that appropriate action (in the sense of drawing attention of the retailer) has taken place either, other than to claim back losses from their card issuer. One person asked if they should, but nobody has said that they have. Indeed, from Andy's comment 105 it appears that they did not know as action has only taken place from his intervention. From what I am reading in this thread, the retailer concerned is a reasonably large concern. It may not have many staff but it certainly has a reputation to uphold. I would not call and speak to the sales team for the reason you have stated, plus it would be a business matter for the management only. I would speak to the MD and draw it to his/her attention only. You do not need incontrovertible evidence to raise a query - it will be far too late by then, as has been proved here. If I were this or any retailer, for one person to raise a possible problem would not overly concern me, but for several I would be very concerned indeed, and most grateful that I could end it before it was too late. Steve Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 From what I am reading in this thread, the retailer concerned is a reasonably large concern. It may not have many staff but it certainly has a reputation to uphold. I would not call and speak to the sales team for the reason you have stated, plus it would be a business matter for the management only. I would speak to the MD and draw it to his/her attention only. Indeed one should be very careful of directly contacting the retailer directly (even senior management). If in fact a fraud has been committed the matter is between your credit card company and the retailer. They may have chosen to inform the police. Your direct contact could well be seen as making the retailer or "fraudster" aware that they may be detected and may be under investigation. Allowing time to potentially dispose of some evidence or "do a runner". I believe this in itself can be seen as an offense. Your dispute is not with the retailer. It is with the credit card company, most of whom are likely to reimburse such transactions quickly and may take further actions (police, revoking agreements, etc) as they choose. Not all such transactions are "fraudulent" though the odds are very high that a mistake has been made. The decision on this must remain with the credit card company. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Nth Degree Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 I agree with your argument in general and legal terms, and I would definitely recommend exactly the procedure you describe in normal circumstances, where the retailer is new or unknown to you, but one has to use common sense too. This company has previously been trading with an unquestioned history but at some point in time that has changed and several customers have experienced the same problem, enough to raise a thread on a forum. If you've been a previous happy customer then this is more reason to let them know. I'd be interested to see what reaction Andy received from the retailer. I'm willing to bet a large sum it wasn't "How dare you!". Steve Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Y Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 I'd be interested to see what reaction Andy received from the retailer. The matter was dealt with professionally, responsibly and swiftly and they were grateful it had been flagged up. Other than the reports over the last few days the content within the topic has been pretty generalised and not sufficient to ring alarm bells at this end up until that point. Those alarm bells will have helped the retailer and future customers so there has been a reasonable outcome. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leicester Thumper Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 I think the general rule and moral of this thread is that despite there being ways to stop and dwindle fraud levels, no one is invincible from it. It is also wise to know and understand that in order to conquer fraud it is wise to bring cases up on such forums and public places as it can help provide information in order to alert the relevant people. Nth Degree, I can sort of understand your anger and upset but please keep the above in mind. Think about it, if no one said anything mate, we'd be back in square one. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
steveb860 Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 Nth degree, I only became aware that I too was a vicitim four days ago after my bank wrote to me having suspended my cards. I only made the connection after reading this thread and then contacting Jenny and Andy. Together we and several others have provided info which Andy has collated and aproached the retailer with. I am not a sheep. I am also happy with the retailers response. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenny Emily Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 Part of the problem - certainly in my case - was that the transaction was an automated pre-order. Therefore no money was actually debited from my account by the actual retailer. When the bank's fraud department looked over the transactions they had nothing to connect the retailer to the fraud, as they didn't appear on my transaction history. If I hadn't been on RMWeb to read other people's experiences and put two and two together (and have it confirmed via PMs that others had had exactly the same experience after having made similar pre-orders), I have to be honest that I would never have suspected this retailer being the possible avenue for the card details to be cloned. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted August 15, 2012 Share Posted August 15, 2012 I worked for an online retailer and the banks attitude to credit card fraud amazed me. They paid out on the 1st fraudulent transaction, but subsuquent ones are down to the retailer cost even when the banks own system authorized it and no fraud was suspected or reported. This was not cloneing cards but applying for cards in different names and at different addresses As long as others are forced to pay for the crime (customers and retailers) the banks will not take much action. We started to recognize certain patterns and after a simple checking procedure refused to deliver. These were reported to both the card companies and the police via out own companies security department, but as far as I am aware nothing was ever done as I was never asked to give a witness statement or describe the fraudsters. With electronic payments, the banks must must be able to trace where the money has gone. Simple solution is that if the bank which recieved the money was forced to repay it, and this happened all the way down the line. You could bet your last dollar on the fact that the banks would quickly find where the money went to and could recover it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Y Posted August 15, 2012 Share Posted August 15, 2012 You could bet your last dollar on the fact that the banks would quickly find where the money went to and could recover it. Oh absolutely. It irks me that the cheque guarantee system was scrapped (as it would still be nice to have that option to reduce the likelihood of cloning in some establishments) because the loss was the banks rather than the retailers if the funds weren't there. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted August 15, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 15, 2012 Not quite the same situation but basically the banks seem to lack interest totally in recovering money that goes the wrong way, for whatever reason. It took us almost 8 months to get back a credit payment to me which the bank credited to the wrong account - and then said that getting it back was down to us writing via them to the holder of the account which had been incorrectly credited and that person agreeing to pay back the money (which wasn't theirs in the first place). Another payment to me from the same source (health insurance) which I stipulated be paid by cheque went through without any hiccoughs at all - says it all. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted August 15, 2012 Share Posted August 15, 2012 Oh absolutely. It irks me that the cheque guarantee system was scrapped (as it would still be nice to have that option to reduce the likelihood of cloning in some establishments) because the loss was the banks rather than the retailers if the funds weren't there. In the banking system thankfully 99% are lovely honest people, however once it gets to the business it's self it seems ethics and morals go out of the window if an extra buck can be earnt. In the old days local branches could police their own customers and undesireables were kicked out, it was a privilage to have an account and if abused the privilage was taken away. When the FSA was brought into being it was to protect customers, needless to say the oposite has occured. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Butler Henderson Posted August 24, 2012 Share Posted August 24, 2012 Received this email today from The Signal Box:- Dear Sir or Madam As an existing customer of The Signal Box, we are writing to advise you that we believe that we may have been the victim of a potential security breach in recent weeks through our online store at www.thesignalbox.co.uk. It is possible that some of your personal data, which may include credit card details, may have been accessed by a third party without our or your consent. Once we identified this possible risk, we suspended the Signal Box website and commenced a full investigation. We take this matter extremely seriously and we are taking appropriate action. As a precautionary measure you may wish to contact your payment card provider so that appropriate action can be taken if required. You may also choose to cancel your card and request a replacement card. We are currently working on our planned upgrade to our online systems at www.thesignalbox.co.uk which includes a brand new, highly secure, website platform. We hope you will continue to support The Signal Box and help us remain an important member of the Model Railway community. If you have any further questions please email us at manager@thesignalbox.co.uk With thanks, The Signal Box The Signal Box Models & Railways 382-386 High Street, Rochester, Kent ME1 1DJ Explains the fraud that arose on my card in April I hope as I had placed an order with them in late March which was subsequently cancelled. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grovenor Posted August 24, 2012 Share Posted August 24, 2012 Would it now be possible for Andy to confirm that the above discussion related to The Signal Box? As if not that still leaves other suppliers under suspicion and some of us wondering if we should be checking up on other establishments where we have pre-ordered items and hence they are holding our credit card details. Regards Keith Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Y Posted August 24, 2012 Share Posted August 24, 2012 Would it now be possible for Andy to confirm that the above discussion related to The Signal Box? As if not that still leaves other suppliers under suspicion and some of us wondering if we should be checking up on other establishments where we have pre-ordered items and hence they are holding our credit card details. It is; please see my comments on the other topic - http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/11432-the-signal-box-rochester/page__st__25&do=findComment&comment=767799 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grovenor Posted August 25, 2012 Share Posted August 25, 2012 Thanks Andy. Keith Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billystanier Posted August 25, 2012 Share Posted August 25, 2012 Had 3 credit card frauds over the last year (with 2 different credit card providers). The latest was this week. Just done some investigating work and the frauds always seem to follow a week or so after a purchase with a well-known box shifter. Coincidence? Has anyone else had problems recently? The well-known box shifter that I was suspecting is indeed the one now admitting they've had problems. How far back in time they have had these issues, I've no idea. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
40F Posted August 26, 2012 Share Posted August 26, 2012 Oh absolutely. It irks me that the cheque guarantee system was scrapped (as it would still be nice to have that option to reduce the likelihood of cloning in some establishments) because the loss was the banks rather than the retailers if the funds weren't there. Not strictly true , the banks would return a cheque if the account was closed and aslo if there were no funds in the account. The system was better but not infalable Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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