building a whitemetal kit

[Sylvian Tennant]

I've bought a Dave Alexander tender kit with a view to buying some more in the near future.

 

I've been told I can use superglue or similer to build these kits up however, they also include brass fittings.

 

I have next to no experience with soldering and would like to begin using it but really I'm a fish out of water with this.

 

What are people's experiences and advice on any of these mthods

 

cheers

[Kenton]

IMO superglue is near useless for white metal kit construction - if you are going to resort to glue then Araldite is the most common choice.

 

Of course nothing can beat soldering the parts together.

All you require is a soldering iron (most people would recommend a temperature controlled unit), some Cars Red flux and some "low melt" 70' solder.

 

Whatever method you use you will need to clean the white metal (brass bristle brush, glass fibre brush, wet'n'dry paper) and test fit everything. White metal parts are notorious for having "flash" (thin bits of whitemetal left over from the molding) and to being less than perfect fit. Sadly, sometimes parts can be bent out of shape.

 

Once you get over the initial hurdles, generally white metal kits go together quickly and tend to have real weight and presence, though can lack finer detail - it can depend on the age of the molds as well as the finess of the originals.

 

For an example of a little white metal kit I threw together recently see A Billard T75D - not a tender but a quick and easy 009 loco. (BTW I don't use a temperature controlled iron, just shows it can be dne without melting everything)

[James]

Kenton's reply is very good indeed!

 

My earlier white metal kits were put together with five minute araldite quite successfully. You will need to solder electrical items and maybe other bits of the chassis. My Q6 which I built nearly ten years ago (scarey!) is from an Alexander kit and all the body castings are glued with said araldite, with chassis etchings, bearings and electrical connections soldered with ordinary 60/40 electrical solder.

 

Plus there's a lot of people on here who will be able to help

[multiprinter]

If you are a member of a club, I'm sure there will be someone who can give you a practical demonstration of soldering. Also, at exhibitions there is usually some sort of demonstration stand with a resident expert.

[Etched Pixels]

Several glues will do the job  Superglue in general isn't a good choice because it isn't very good at filling voids,  and the joins between white metal parts tend to have a lot of small voids.

 

My preferred glue for white metal is evostick impact and I have a collection of white metal models including locos built this way that have survived reasonably rough handling. Soldering is certainly stronger but for many jobs its a lot slower and more fiddly and being firmly in the "need a time machine" camp I tend to use glue. 

 

One tip though - as you work through a tube of evostick and it begins to thicken with age save that one for white metal kit building and start a new one for scenics, paper and other work. New tubes are a bit runny and take a while to thicken which makes them less convenient than old tubes. 

 

Alan

[Bluebell Model Railway]

I have made a few white metal kits. I am no proffesional, I use Superglue and have no problem sticking them of bonding, i have good proof as i dropped one of mine on the floor and nothing fell off

Alraldite is ok for filling, but isnt great for gluing compants together I find it just sits on the top and doesn't glue together. As has been said soldering is probably the better solution.

[traction]

I've bought a Dave Alexander tender kit with a view to buying some more in the near future.

 

I've been told I can use superglue or similer to build these kits up however, they also include brass fittings.

 

I have next to no experience with soldering and would like to begin using it but really I'm a fish out of water with this.

 

What are people's experiences and advice on any of these mthods

 

cheers

 

 

Richard Johnson (DCC-concepts) has written a comprehensive guide to soldering, I would have a read of this, may help, link below.

 

http://www.dccconcepts.com/index_files/DCCsoldering1.htm

 

Cheers

 

Ian

[Chinahand]

Araldite is fine for wagon kits or similar but I would not recommend it for loco kits where torque and others stresses can be present. Soldering is, IMHO, the best way to build a loco kit.

 

Having said that I have recently been trying Gorilla Glue on a couple of wagon kits and found it to be just as strong as Araldite. It does, however, take considerably longer than Araldite to go 'off' (up to 3 hours) and is not really cured in less than 12 hours. On the plus side it reacts to water and expands during curing so is useful for filling gaps. Once cured, it can be filed and sanded.

 

Here's a little Fleetline N Gauge breakdown crane I put together using Gorilla Glue.

 

[Lady_Ava_Hay]

Soldering with low melt solder, a temperature controlled iron and a good flux is quite easy. What is less so is soldering brass parts to white metal. You will need to tin the brass with 145 degree solder before using the low melt to virtually glue it to the white metal.

 

I agree with Kenton as to cleanliness of white metal before either soldering or gluing.

 

Araldite is quite good but for something as boxy as a tender, I doubt that you will be able to hold two sides at right angles easily whilst the glue sets. It also runs a bit through the gaps that white metal frequently has in joints.

 

It also dries yellow and, because white metal is naturally cold, extends setting times appreciably.

 

It has to be said though that the old style Araldite exposed to gentle heat goes off very quickly and is tough but flexible. This is where we came in; if you use low melt it is an instant glue really and with flux flows into and welds gaps plus it is the same colour and texture. It also welds small parts onto the kit without destroying the small part or leaving unsightly blobs of yellow glue. I use a temperature controlled iron because it is more forgiving when I make mistakes. You need a bit more heat for the bigger parts and less heat for the smaller ones. An uncontrolled hot iron needs a really steady hand and instant withdrawal to prevent damage particularly to small parts which can literally dissolve as the iron passes close.

 

As a general rule, glues that set quickly in air at normal temperatures tend to be more brittle.

[Kenton]

It also dries yellow

Not all Araldite is the same ...

 

 

This version contains metal it is both conductive and dries a sort of "grey" .... but I still think it is cheating

[Sylvian Tennant]

Cheers guys, these are most helpful tips

[benachie]

I used to use Araldite between 1970 and 2000 and in some of the 40 year old work the Araldite has gone brittle and/or shrunk and the models are at risk of falling apart. Nowadays I always use lowmelt solder with a temperature controlled iron and Powerflux. Progress is so much faster and the result so much stronger that I really would encourage you to go down this route.

Alan

[stewartingram]

Lets just clear up a point here. Just like "Hoover" gets used to describe all sorts of vacuum cleaners, "Araldite" gets the same treatment for glues

of the 2-part epoxy variety.

The original Araldite was stronger and set in 24 hrs, the newer version set in an hour but was not as strong. Since then may other versions have hit the market from various manufacturers, all of varying quality (and I don't mean that disrespectfully); its a matter of "horses for course" in choosing the right one for your needs. And don't forget we normally only see the retail versions, there are industrial strenth ones made for specific needs in industry too!

[bike2steam]

All the loco bodies I built for 'Bembridge' (RM Sept. 1995) were superglued together, 3 x Wills 02's, 2 x K's Terriers, 1 x Wills E1. After that I 'bit the bullet' and soldered whitemetal kits ( now numbering 60). I prefer superglue to epoxy, less messy, any filling done with Milliput.

[halfwit]

I'm in the 5-minute Araldite camp. Never had a problem. Just make sure everything is nice and clean. Blu-tack can be used to hold parts in place whilst the glue goes off.

[Theakerr]

Here in Canada I have successfully used a superglue on white metal kits (and brass) that is "designed" to fill voids and has a short cure time of about 20 secs with a handling cure of about 10 mins and a full cure of 24 hours. It is called Maxi cure by Bob Smith Industries and is defined as extra thick.

[John_Hughes]

I've been using Bostik's superglue for many years with no problems on whitemetal loco bodywork, with any necessary filling done with either Squadron Green or Humbrol filler. No problems at all so far!

 

But I wouldn't try it with the chassis, except for attaching a few detail bits.

 

No, I tell a lie - I use glue to attach the collectors, too!

[melmerby]

I found that "Devcon" quick set epoxy (before there was quick set Araldite) from many years ago tended to degrade with age and anything made with it falls apart!

 

The various Araldites seem pretty good and so do various type of good quality super-glues.

 

Like 2 part epoxies super glue comes in many flavours and qualities and people seem to lump them all together, some of the cheaper ones are rubbish - they don't even stick my fingers together!

 

EDIT: the advantage of low melt solder apart from it making a pretty robust joint that if you mess it up you can remove it with very hot water without destroying your white metal castings.

 

Keith

[BrassMonkey]

I have to put my two penneth in - I'm completely in the soldering camp. It makes the joint stronger in my opinion, and if you make a mistake you can (as advised in the last post) drop the whitemetal components in hot water and they'll come apart.

 

I also agree that a good quality flux is essential (and yes there are different types!), and the whitemetal should be clean before you try to make any joint. The rewards for doing all of the prep are amazing; when you see the solder flowing like a silver stream and "welding" everything together it gives you an enormous amount of satisfaction that you've done a good job and most of all less cleaning up of joints afterwards!

 

Remember: 70 degree solder for whitemetal, and a higher temp for brass/nickel silver.

 

I use a temperature controlled iron and you can get a quality one for around £20 in Maplins. Until you've mastered soldering, I would recommend one of these as melting whitemetal parts is very frustrating, and accidents do happen.

 

And finally... Have a go! Don't be scared of it. As my old pappy always used to say "practice makes perfect". Try on scraps of brass, whitemetal, and nickel silver (old track is handy for that) before diving in to your project. Search the web for hints and tips, and look for advice from fellow club members.

 

Now go on, get soldering!

[JeremyC]

When I started building W/M kits I used epoxy before moving onto soldering. Nowadays I use a combination of methods; soldering the major parts and attaching smaller details with either epoxy or superglue. Chimneys and domes I always do with epoxy as it gives you time to get the alignment right [nothing looks worse than squint boiler fittings!

You can get superglue in various thicknesses, thick will fill gaps quite well. If using superglue I'd also recommend getting a Cyanoacrylate Accelerator spray.

 

Jeremy

[Sylvian Tennant]

Hey guys

 

This is all amazing information.

 

BrassMonkey, thanks, it is incredibly helpful

 

Danni

[bike2steam]

One of 6 whitemetal kit locos built, using super-glue, for Bembridge that gave me 14 years excellent service at 70 shows.

[Sylvian Tennant]

bike2steam, just realise that Bembridge was featured in the first ever Railway Modeller I got!!!

 

 

[Buhar]

I'm about to venture into the low melt solder game for the first time (51L wagon kit). I bought a variable iron, do I tin it with normal solder or tinner/cleaner or should I tin with low melt?

 

Edited to answer my own question by referring to a post by Bertiedog

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php/topic/17177-soldering-iron-wont-tinn/page__p__163475__hl__%22low+melt%22__fromsearch__1?do=findComment&comment=163475

[Jol Wilkinson]

I'm about to venture into the low melt solder game for the first time (51L wagon kit). I bought a variable iron, do I tin it with normal solder or tinner/cleaner or should I tin with low melt?

 

Edited to answer my own question by referring to a post by Bertiedog

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php/topic/17177-soldering-iron-wont-tinn/page__p__163475__hl__%22low+melt%22__fromsearch__1?do=findComment&comment=163475

 

Get a separate bit(s) for whitemetal solder. Tin them with ordinary solder first. I use electrical multicore to tin the bits, although all my model making is done with LRM 145 and 70 degre solders.

 

Mixing the different solders can cause contamination, although a little pot of Ersin Multicore bit and one of those copper scrub bud type bit cleaners takes care of keeping the bit clean. I would strongly recommend that you get those, if you haven't already done so.