RMweb Premium melmerby Posted March 14, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 14, 2011 Hi all. I've tried doing a search so forgive me if this has been brought up before. The ROD in "Great Western" green livery is proposed to be 3099. According to RCTS this loco number (either of the two which carried it) never was green, it was always black and is a short lived engine. The second 3099 went in 1929. The first GWR 3099 was a hired engine (works number RS 3766, ROD 1739) but was returned to the Government in 1922 and later sold to the LNER becoming their 6308. The later 3099 was from the batch of locos which the GWR bought S/H (works number NBL 22214, ROD 2124) According to RCTS (much simplified) latterly there were three groups of 'ROD's, 3000-3019 purchased almost new and fully westernised, the others two groups were formed from 80 engines purchased S/H. The best 30 were westernised and numbered 3020-49 and the rest were touched up and ran until they failed and carried 3050-99, the latter batch were always black. The first two batches generally lasted into BR times apart from a few that went just before nationalization. The 3050-99 batch had all gone by 1931. So why is Bachmann doing 3099 in "Great Western" livery and painted green? Keith 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dilbert Posted March 14, 2011 Share Posted March 14, 2011 So why is Bachmann doing 3099 in "Great Western" livery and painted green? You should drop a note off to Bachmann about this... when Bachmann released the Hall (49xx) models there was at one point in time a release proposed for 'Langton Hall'. This was never produced due to the fact that detail/livery information that Bachmann received at a later date corrected the info that Bachmann had - they eventually replaced the proposed model with a different member of the class - in this case it was 'Sketty Hall'. Definitely worth contacting Bachmann about this apparent anomaly... dilbert Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium melmerby Posted March 14, 2011 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted March 14, 2011 You should drop a note off to Bachmann about this... when Bachmann released the Hall (49xx) models there was at one point in time a release proposed for 'Langton Hall'. This was never produced due to the fact that detail/livery information that Bachmann received at a later date corrected the info that Bachmann had - they eventually replaced the proposed model with a different member of the class - in this case it was 'Sketty Hall'. Definitely worth contacting Bachmann about this apparent anomaly... dilbert Hi Dilbert After I posted I realised Bachmann had a "contact us" e-mail facility and sent off my concerns. I've got a GWR green example on pre-order but I hadn't twigged that 3099 was to be the green one! Keith Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dilbert Posted March 14, 2011 Share Posted March 14, 2011 If Bachmann can correct this in time then I'm sure they will - 'sinon', then this will be a renumbering exercise... whatever, I'm not cancelling my pre-order... dilbert Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium melmerby Posted March 15, 2011 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted March 15, 2011 If Bachmann can correct this in time then I'm sure they will - 'sinon', then this will be a renumbering exercise... whatever, I'm not cancelling my pre-order... dilbert Hi Dilbert By the general lack of interest this post has seems to have aroused (Only 200+ views) it makes you wonder just how many GWR RODs will be sold! Keith Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted March 15, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 15, 2011 Hi Dilbert By the general lack of interest this post has seems to have aroused (Only 200+ views) it makes you wonder just how many GWR RODs will be sold! Keith Possibly only goes to prove what the manufacturers keep telling us - that there is limited interest in pre-nationalisation liveries (as far as i'm concerned any colour will be alright as long as it's black - under the coating of grime) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozexpatriate Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 Hi Dilbert By the general lack of interest this post has seems to have aroused (Only 200+ views) it makes you wonder just how many GWR RODs will be sold! Keith I can say that I want one and will pre-order it because it is in green "GREAT WESTERN" livery. I will purchase it whether it is "wrong" or not. I do appreciate knowing that the choice of this running number does not represent an authentic combination of details and livery. With two batches and reuse of numbers, GWR RODs are certainly a minefield to get the details right. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
amdaley Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 I would like one of these but I have to ask where do Bachmann get their prototype information ? If you're going to make something at least try & get the number right Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted March 15, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 15, 2011 I would like one of these but I have to ask where do Bachmann get their prototype information ? If you're going to make something at least try & get the number right As someone has already said the GWR RODs are an absolute minefield when it comes to numbering detail and while that is no excuse for Bachmann not getting it right they are up against the problem of needing some fairly specialised information in order to get it absolutely right (and the best source is currently out-of-print I believe). In fact I wonder just how many GWR modellers happen to have that sort of detail sitting ready-to-hand on their bookshelves and whether or not Bachmann tried to consult any of us that have or just trusted to luck. As it happens it's an easy one for the purchaser to correct (because unlike the real, second, 3099 it doesn't have a Taff Vale chimney or a Queen's Park worksplate) but in an ideal world it should be right and have a suitable number applied before it leaves the factory. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Siberian Snooper Posted March 15, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 15, 2011 I shall be purchasing one whatever the number as I always add different plates so as not to follow the common herd. I don't normally worry about the livery either as it can soon be changed to what I require, they usually need a repaint after detailing anyway. Cheers SS Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dilbert Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 As someone has already said the GWR RODs are an absolute minefield when it comes to numbering detail and while that is no excuse for Bachmann not getting it right they are up against the problem of needing some fairly specialised information in order to get it absolutely right (and the best source is currently out-of-print I believe). Well it won't be the first or last time either and I'm sure that Bachmann will do their utmost to address the problem. Given the complexity of this particular prototype's history, I wonder how sales would fare if these were packaged as Decal Ready and Decal Fitted (totally TIC). B) That Melmerby picked up on the original anomaly and has informed Bachmann is an excellent move as well... dilbert Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozexpatriate Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 Coincident with Keith's (melmerby's) post at the top of this thread, there was a letter to MREmag posted on Monday (March 14) on 3099 appearing in the Bachmann catalogue, also quoting RCTS as the source. Since you can't reliably link to MREmag content, I'll post it the details here: Bachmann GWR 3099 I am amazed that Bachmann have chosen to number the GWR liveried ROD as 3099. The story of the ROD 2-8-0 on the GWR is complex. There were 2 groups, the first being 3000 – 3049 and the second 3050 – 3099 and 6000 – 6003. The numbers 3000 – 3049 were used on locomotives the GWR kept, being equipped with copper fireboxes and GWR fittings, many lasting into the 1950s. Numbers 3050 – 99 and 6000 – 6003 were used for locomotives that retained the original steel fireboxes, were used for only a short time and then disposed of. The GWR had 2 ROD 2-8-0 locomotives numbered 3099, neither lasted long and I doubt either gained any GWR features other than a number plate. Some details (from the RCTS series) are: GWR - ROD - Built - Received - To Traffic - Withdrawn - Disposal 3099 - 1739 - 1919 --- 09/20 --- 09/20 --- 08/22 --- To LNER as no 6308 3099 - 2124 - 1919 --- 06/25 --- 02/27 --- 12/29 --- Scrapped Is it too late to ask for a 'Westernised' locomotive numbered in the range 3000 – 3049? Julian Evers If this contravenes our copyright policy, it should be deleted - it's unclear to me. I'll be delighted to have a 1920s GWR steam locomotive. If it was black, then the model probably should be black, though it does look nice in green. This leads me to ask, were any of the non-Swindonized RODs, 3050-3099, 6000-6003, painted green, or were they all black like 3099? (As Mike knowingly points out, there are probably many GWR modellers who don't have all the necessary reference works at hand - like me!) And ... does anyone know how to properly format a table in the text editor? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted March 15, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 15, 2011 Wot's a text editor? (I use a keyboard and put in returns or tabs - that's about my limit alas) Now RODs is another thing entirely as ay least I can look them up in a good book - although I only have the RCTS history. As far as the non-Swindonised locos were concerned none of them seem to have been painted in GWR green. The first batch of GW purchased locos, in 1919, became 3000-3019 and retained those numbers throughout their GW lives - they were more or less 'new ex-works' when the GW bought them and gained green paint at some time (no indication if they had it from 'GWR new'). the next batch to arrive were 'best mixed' and were temporarily numbered 3020-99 and 6000-3; they arrived between July 1919 and September 1920 and included locos officially on loan from other railways. They had all been sent on their way by some time in 1922. The next lot to arrive were purchased in 1925 and numbered 80 in total - they included 19 which had previously been on loan to the GWR between 1919 and 1921/22 and thos 19 were initially given the GW numbers they had carried during the earlier loan period (except for the one which previously carried GW 6001). The other 61 locos, plus the erstwhile 6001, were numbered in the order of their former ROD running numbers and the whole lot were taken into stock in the 4 weeks ending 13 June 1925. But 4 months later all of them (now 3020-99) were withdrawn and the best 30 were overhauled, given some 'Swindonisation', including new copper fireboxes, and painted green - they were re-numbered into the series 3020-49. The rest were renumbered into the series 3050-99, given GW pattern safety valves and painted black and then, effectively, run into the ground - most had gone by the end of 1929 but one managed to last until the end of 1931. Just to add a bit of spice to the tale 4 of those selected for new fireboxes were found to be in worse condition than initially assessed and they swapped numbers with 4 locos from the 3050-99 group. Finally after 3020-49 had been dealt with the original group, 3000-19 were also put through works but it is not entirely clear from the RCTS book just what was done to them at this time as opposed to what - if anything - had already been done to them. But byOctober 1929 all the 3000-49 series had copper fireboxes, GW pattern safety valves, Swindon superheaters and other GW fittings - but some still carried the mounting plates for Westinghouse brake pumps. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozexpatriate Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 Wot's a text editor? (I use a keyboard and put in returns or tabs - that's about my limit alas) You did sort out the italics for most of your posts though! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozexpatriate Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 Now RODs is another thing entirely as ay least I can look them up in a good book - although I only have the RCTS history. ... Wow - I knew the history of the RODs was confusing but that really makes my head spin. Thank you for taking the time to write all that down. EDIT (ADDED THE FOLLOWING BACK FOR COHERENCY): It seems that if Bachmann wants to make a non-Swindonized GWR ROD, it properly should be black. I guess I need to be careful with my definitions. I don't have the new Bachmann catalog in front of me and they don't seem to have an image loaded on-line. From recollection of my very brief look at the new catalogue (which only arrived last night and I can't check it right now so I might be wrong), the illustrations show a GWR safety valve cover, painted green, which would indicate some level of Swindonization on their proposed model of 3099. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted March 15, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 15, 2011 Wow - I knew the history of the RODs was confusing but that really makes my head spin. Thank you for taking the time to write all that down. It seems that if Bachmann wants to make a non-Swindonized GWR ROD, it properly should be black. And would probably have an original pattern smokebox door as well. So maybe the best starting point would be the NRM model? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium melmerby Posted March 15, 2011 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted March 15, 2011 The problem that the number 3099 causes as far as I can see is twofold: 1) wrong colour - should be black. 2) Very short life - the second 3099 lasted 4 years. Choosing a low number 3000-49 and carefully researching the subject would give a choice of loco with approximately 25 or more years of service on the "Western" and could be presented in several GWR livery periods. I assume some must have received a roundel after the initial green paint and "Great Western" and possibly also "GWR" before BR days and black again. Keith 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamieb Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 As others have said, strange that Bachmann's researchers have got it so wrong.Yes, the history of GWR ROD engines may be complicated, but nothing like as difficult as designing and creating a RTR model locomotive!I believe they have dropped a clanger along these lines before with the 8750 pannier tank being numbered as 8715 which was an earlier flat cab version, hence a glut of rejected bodies appearing on Ebay over the last year or so, so possibly (hopefully!) there may be a quantity of GWR 3099 bodies appearing on an auction site near you!.Funnily enough, when the GWR liveried version was announced last year, the pictures showed it as 3031 so why it change for the production run is anyones guess?I think it may actually be a misprint in the catalogue but we shall see. Jamie Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted March 15, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 15, 2011 How it got that 3099 could be down to all sorts of things but whether or not it will lose it if it is already near production is a different matter entirely - even with a generally switched-on UK company such as Bachmann. This might sound daft but it comes from an impeccable source - apparently the Chinese factories can sometimes be very reluctant to correct things because if they did so it would be an admission that they had erred in the first place and so a loss of face would be involved (or I wonder if it is a modern, more commercial, equivalent). This means that the whole specification process has to be done very carefully and, so I'm told, repeatedly because if an error slips through it can be very difficult to get the factory to correct it. Sounds very odd to us Westerners but my source quoted a couple of examples - which are otherwise inexplicable. So perhaps now we know why things are smetimes not quite as correct as they should be? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium melmerby Posted March 15, 2011 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted March 15, 2011 Just had this reply from Bachmann: "Thank you for your email. This issue has already been raised and passed on to our Research & Development Team who are carrying out further research. I will forward your email also. Thank you for bringing it to my attention. Dennis Lovett Public Relations Manager" Looks like they were already aware of it, Maybe the person EDIT: Julian Evers who contacted MREMAG contacted Bachmann as well. Keith 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium melmerby Posted March 17, 2011 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted March 17, 2011 A further titbit regarding RODs: I read in one of the monthly mags that a group is trying to repatriate up to three RODs which ended up in Oz, at least one of which ran for a time on the L&Y and LNWR. Even more possibilities if they manage to get one home! Keith Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold tomparryharry Posted March 22, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 22, 2011 As I understand it, 3099 would be a suitable number for a non-westernised locomotive. If I've read RCTS 10 correctly, they did run for a while with both ROD & GW numbers. The GW number was painted on, I think, to resemble a GW numberplate. Personally, wouldn't mind seeing an ROD with No 6000, that would be a good one to get some ""Highly Informed"" people jumping up & down! Ian. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium melmerby Posted March 25, 2011 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted March 25, 2011 As I understand it, 3099 would be a suitable number for a non-westernised locomotive. If I've read RCTS 10 correctly, they did run for a while with both ROD & GW numbers. The GW number was painted on, I think, to resemble a GW numberplate. Personally, wouldn't mind seeing an ROD with No 6000, that would be a good one to get some ""Highly Informed"" people jumping up & down! Ian. Some of them had two cast plates, a ROD and a GWR, e.g. picture K462 in RCTS showing ROD 1868 (3084) on loan in 1921. Even some of the short lived ones were partly "Westernised" e.g. ROD 1947 (3089), which received a Taff Vale chimney and GWR safety valve cover (RCTS plate K466) but not it would seem green paint! Keith Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Bazza Posted March 27, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 27, 2011 Hi All, I noticed the GWR ROD in the Bachmann showcase at Ally Pally wasd 3031 - it would appear they have taken notice! Bazza Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium melmerby Posted March 27, 2011 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted March 27, 2011 Hi All, I noticed the GWR ROD in the Bachmann showcase at Ally Pally wasd 3031 - it would appear they have taken notice! Bazza Hi Bazza I believe that's what it was supposed to be when originally unveiled, but the 2011 catalogue p22 (and the retailers adverts) now show 3099! Modelfair have this rather confusing (or hedging their bets) description: Bachmann 31-129, 30xx ROD 2-8-0 Steam Locomotive 3031 in GWR green Ref: 31-129 31-129 Bachmann 30xx ROD 2-8-0 Steam Locomotive 3099 in GWR Green. Keith Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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