cctransuk Posted August 11, 2011 Share Posted August 11, 2011 Can anyone say definitively which of the ex-GWR railcars that made it into BR ownership acquired the green livery? I am in the process of designing transfer sheets for both the carmine & cream and green liveries for these railcars, so this information, and pointers to on-line images preferably in colour, would be much appreciated. I have, of course, undertaken the usual Google searches, but most images seem to be of the Lima / Hornby model !! Regards, John Isherwood, Cambridge Custom Transfers. http://www.cctrans.freeserve.co.uk/ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Pannier Tank Posted August 11, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted August 11, 2011 No. 22 was withdrawn and delivered to the SVR in BR Green. I will be needing a set of transfers so will watch developments with interest. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dilbert Posted August 11, 2011 Share Posted August 11, 2011 Judge's AEC Railcar tome has photos of 22, 26 & 32 with the speed whiskers ( these photos are in b&w), but thereagain I thought the whiskers were only applied to the green livery. N°s 17& 34 were for parcels duties and wouldn't have carried the green livery. When was the green livery introduced ? Circa 1956 ? Judge's book also has an appendix that details the official condemned dates. So by process of elimination (and assuming the 1956 date of the introduction of the green livery is correct) , then car N°s 1, 2, 3, 9, 35 & 36 would never have sported the green livery. There were several railcars condemned in '56/'58, N°s 10-12, 16 & 18, so these probably wouldn't have received the green livery... dilbert Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffalo Posted August 11, 2011 Share Posted August 11, 2011 Judge's AEC Railcar tome has photos of 22, 26 & 32 with the speed whiskers ( these photos are in b&w), but thereagain I thought the whiskers were only applied to the green livery... The 2008 reprint has a colour photo on the front cover of one of the three car units in green with whiskers in what looks like ex-works condition. Unfortunately, I can't make out the number. Could 35/36 have been repainted just before they were destoyed by fire on 10/4/56? If not, I would expect 33/38 to have appeared in green as they lasted until 1962. Nick Chris Leigh's second volume of GWR Country Stations has an undated photo of 23 in green at Barbers Bridge, though I have another photo of it (and 25) at Keynsham in a two colour livery in May 1958. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cctransuk Posted August 11, 2011 Author Share Posted August 11, 2011 I have the 1985 Russell / Wild Swan book and appendix, but there seem to be very few BR period illustrations. I also have a a couple of first generation DMU books that include the GWR ones, plus several photos that I've downloaded off the web. Of the latter, I can say that W22W & W33W+W1096W+W38W definitely received green livery. I will be going through all of my references this evening, so I may be able to add some more. Hopefully, between us, we should be able to ensure that my transfer sheet covers all definite green examples. The carmine and cream sheet is well advanced; both sheets will include lining, and speed whiskers on the green sheet, plus lettering and lining for the two centre cars used in BR days. I have yet to find a photo with either GUARD or DISTRIBUTED LOAD lettering so I'm assuming that these markings were not carried .... unless you know different, of course. Regards, John Isherwood. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffalo Posted August 11, 2011 Share Posted August 11, 2011 ...I have yet to find a photo with either GUARD or DISTRIBUTED LOAD lettering so I'm assuming that these markings were not carried .... unless you know different, of course. Nothing like that in the Judge volume, other than LOAD NOT TO EXCEED 10 TONS beneath the numbers on parcels car 17 in original GWR livery. There are, however some very small letters/digits at top right (viewed from front) of the buffer beam on some carmine and cream photos. Something similar appears on some photos of the green livery, although here it is above the buffer beam on the sloping panel between the light and the panel edge. Nick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisf Posted August 11, 2011 Share Posted August 11, 2011 I'm pretty sure that green was applied from 1959 so that rules out 35+36. As it happens I have the Judge tome in front of me. Notice the way that the lining was applied to 1096 - level with the lining on 33 and 38 but above the waist so interrupted by the windows! 26 is shown in green in July 1959 and according to the Colour-Rail catalogue 30 was green in 1961. Oh, and just to disappoint owners of the Lima/Hornby model of 34 in maroon - it never was, being withdrawn still carrying crimson. Chris EDIT: Hold the front page - just found a reference to 28 being green in 1961 [Colour-Rail catalogue again but an older edition]. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisf Posted August 11, 2011 Share Posted August 11, 2011 Another afterthought, sorry: I'm sure cctrans remembers that in the early days of BR larger numbers were used, without the W suffix, and applied at the left hand end of the vehicle. The change to right hand numbering and suffixes was made from 1952. Chris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffalo Posted August 11, 2011 Share Posted August 11, 2011 ...Notice the way that the lining was applied to 1096 - level with the lining on 33 and 38 but above the waist so interrupted by the windows! ... I hadn't noticed that, so thanks for pointing it out. It certainly looks different Nick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium melmerby Posted August 11, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted August 11, 2011 RCTS quotes that most of the surviving cars were painted green (of more than one shade) when the new BR railcars started to enter service. It does not say which ones! In all 13 of the later types lasted to 1962 (20-26, 29-33 and 38) all the earlier streamlined ones went by late 1960. PS I remember them up and down the Severn Valley line in both crimson and cream and later green with whiskers! Keith Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisf Posted August 11, 2011 Share Posted August 11, 2011 I quote from the Railway Observer, December 1960: "On 6th November there were no fewer than ten of the remaining GWR cars at Southall shed. Three of these, W27/8/34W, were out of use with most windows broken, but W21/4/5/30/1W and twin W33/8W were serviceable. W30/3/8W are in dark green livery, W34W is in red and the remainder are still red and cream." So was 28 given a final lease of life and a coat of green paint after this date? Chris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmrspaul Posted August 11, 2011 Share Posted August 11, 2011 I quote from the Railway Observer, December 1960: "On 6th November there were no fewer than ten of the remaining GWR cars at Southall shed. Three of these, W27/8/34W, were out of use with most windows broken, but W21/4/5/30/1W and twin W33/8W were serviceable. W30/3/8W are in dark green livery, W34W is in red and the remainder are still red and cream." So was 28 given a final lease of life and a coat of green paint after this date? Chris Chris, I had thought of posting that I remember seeing these very strange beasts in red and cream at Southall, and it must have been about 1960. Although Chris Leigh insists they were used on the Staines West Branch I don't remember them. I do remember a steam hauled train late one Saturday night, and the green DMU single unit - I did Staines to W. Drayton in the cab one Saturday when I went up to Dads office in Paddington (so probably about 1958 when office work still had Saturday attendance). Paul Bartlett Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
multiprinter Posted August 11, 2011 Share Posted August 11, 2011 . There are, however some very small letters/digits at top right (viewed from front) of the buffer beam on some carmine and cream photos. Something similar appears on some photos of the green livery, although here it is above the buffer beam on the sloping panel between the light and the panel edge. Nick These will be overhaul etc. dates - same as appeared on all dmus and coaching stock. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisf Posted August 11, 2011 Share Posted August 11, 2011 Paul, Chris Leigh is quite right to insist that GW cars ran from West Drayton to Staines. Occasionally they ran in pairs. For at least part of the 1950s there were several workings of GWR cars based at Southall. Just how many may have depended at least in part on the availability of auto trains and staff to run them but one involved the overnight trains shuttling between Paddington and Hayes or West Drayton, culminating in the 5.10 am to Uxbridge with Siphon G in tow. At this time the twins 33+38, plus or minus 1096 and its funny lining, had a regular working from Reading to Paddington at 11.42 am, returning at 1.42 pm. Gloucester-built single units with driving trailers, popularly known as bubble cars, arrived at Southall in the summer of 1958 and began to replace the autos and the GW cars but there was a period, clearly of about two years, when both types were in use. As with many things this area of interest is not as well recorded as it might be: I've just been trawling through the RO looking for more clues but so far in vain as it seemed a lot more interested in which restaurant cars were painted chocolate and cream! I'm going to put the lid back on the can of worms and go to bed! Chris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium melmerby Posted August 11, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted August 11, 2011 So was 28 given a final lease of life and a coat of green paint after this date? Chris According to RCTS (again) 28 had already been withdrawn September 1960 so couldn't have been around in 1961! This is from part 12 updates published 1974 Keith Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BernardTPM Posted August 11, 2011 Share Posted August 11, 2011 From an undated photo in Trains Illustrated April 1961 W29 (that also shows W19 in c/c) at Bewdley and in the May 1961 issue W23 at Neen Sollars 22-10-60. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisf Posted August 12, 2011 Share Posted August 12, 2011 According to RCTS (again) 28 had already been withdrawn September 1960 so couldn't have been around in 1961! This is from part 12 updates published 1974 Keith The withdrawal date of 28 is also given in a 1963 RO. I don't have the slide but the catalogue gives the location as Cleobury Mortimer and the date as 8/61! This is exactly why historians should not rely on just one source but on past form I would go with the RCTS. The balance of probability is that C-R should have put 26 instead of 28. Oh dear! Chris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stewartingram Posted August 12, 2011 Share Posted August 12, 2011 Chris, I had thought of posting that I remember seeing these very strange beasts in red and cream at Southall, and it must have been about 1960. Although Chris Leigh insists they were used on the Staines West Branch I don't remember them. I do remember a steam hauled train late one Saturday night, and the green DMU single unit - I did Staines to W. Drayton in the cab one Saturday when I went up to Dads office in Paddington (so probably about 1958 when office work still had Saturday attendance). Paul Bartlett Slightly off topic, but when I started work in 1964 (Pye Telecom, Cambridge) the working week still included Saturday mornings for a 44hr week. A few months later this was cut back to a 40hr week, Mon-Friday, so St mornings lasted quite a while after! Stewart Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jointline Posted August 12, 2011 Share Posted August 12, 2011 Paul, Chris Leigh is quite right to insist that GW cars ran from West Drayton to Staines. Occasionally they ran in pairs. For at least part of the 1950s there were several workings of GWR cars based at Southall. Just how many may have depended at least in part on the availability of auto trains and staff to run them but one involved the overnight trains shuttling between Paddington and Hayes or West Drayton, culminating in the 5.10 am to Uxbridge with Siphon G in tow. At this time the twins 33+38, plus or minus 1096 and its funny lining, had a regular working from Reading to Paddington at 11.42 am, returning at 1.42 pm. Gloucester-built single units with driving trailers, popularly known as bubble cars, arrived at Southall in the summer of 1958 and began to replace the autos and the GW cars but there was a period, clearly of about two years, when both types were in use. As with many things this area of interest is not as well recorded as it might be: I've just been trawling through the RO looking for more clues but so far in vain as it seemed a lot more interested in which restaurant cars were painted chocolate and cream! I'm going to put the lid back on the can of worms and go to bed! Chris Bit off topic, but my earliest trips on the Staines branch in the late fifties were in ex GWR railcars, all painted red and cream. I can't recall seeing a green one on the branch before the bubble cars took over. My last ever trip in an ex GWR set (33/38, green with additional coach) was from Hayes on an up suburban service, substituting for a Class 117 DMU, must have been in the early sixties. My chum and I were astonished to see this set arrive, as it didn't put in a regular appearance on services. We travelled in the coach, which seemed to have been newly painted, and I seem to remember very antiseptic in appearance, with everything painted in a gloss off white/cream, and any superfluous fittings having been removed. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmrspaul Posted August 12, 2011 Share Posted August 12, 2011 Paul, Chris Leigh is quite right to insist that GW cars ran from West Drayton to Staines. Occasionally they ran in pairs. For at least part of the 1950s there were several workings of GWR cars based at Southall. Just how many may have depended at least in part on the availability of auto trains and staff to run them but one involved the overnight trains shuttling between Paddington and Hayes or West Drayton, culminating in the 5.10 am to Uxbridge with Siphon G in tow. At this time the twins 33+38, plus or minus 1096 and its funny lining, had a regular working from Reading to Paddington at 11.42 am, returning at 1.42 pm. Gloucester-built single units with driving trailers, popularly known as bubble cars, arrived at Southall in the summer of 1958 and began to replace the autos and the GW cars but there was a period, clearly of about two years, when both types were in use. As with many things this area of interest is not as well recorded as it might be: I've just been trawling through the RO looking for more clues but so far in vain as it seemed a lot more interested in which restaurant cars were painted chocolate and cream! I'm going to put the lid back on the can of worms and go to bed! Chris Apologies, I didn't intend to imply they were not used from Staines W - Chris has analysed many of the workings on the line over many years, and Staines MRS layout of Staines W from the mid 1960s used them - and Chris was in charge of what was permitted to be used. My memories pre the early 1960s are all very vague, not least as I was both very young and very very tired when Dad brought me back late at night after he had been playing cricket/hockey at the GWR Castle Bar sports club. He travelled on the line daily but, as a family, we more usually went on the Southern - and it was seeing Feltham yard that stimulated my interest in freight wagons. Paul Bartlett Paul Bartlett Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cctransuk Posted August 12, 2011 Author Share Posted August 12, 2011 Well - what would we do without this list !! A pattern has emerged - all of the confirmed green railcars are from the last survivors of the 'razor-edged' series that were withdrawn in 1962. Perhaps not surprising! Though there's an element of speculation here, I'd bet that the best examples of this series were refurbished and repainted green in 1960/61, the rest (W19W, W27W, W28W & W34W) being withdrawn in 1960 with all of the remaining cars from the 'streamlined' series. Thus likely green cars are W20W - W26W, W29W - W33W, W38W & W1096W, with W22W, W23W, W26W, W29W, W30W, W32W, W33W, W38W & W1096W confirmed. I will therefore provide numbers for these cars on my transfer sheet for the green livery. I was aware of the larger numbers, (6" rather than 4"), that were used with the carmine & cream livery; this persisted even after the numbers were moved and the suffixes added. Thank you all for your help with this project; I'll post here when the transfers are available. It shouldn't be too long - I've W14W in carmine & cream and W23W together with W33W+W1096W+W38W in green to build as soon as I retire next month! Regards, John Isherwood, Cambridge Custom Transfers. http://www.cctrans.freeserve.co.uk/ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium melmerby Posted August 12, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted August 12, 2011 The withdrawal date of 28 is also given in a 1963 RO. I don't have the slide but the catalogue gives the location as Cleobury Mortimer and the date as 8/61! This is exactly why historians should not rely on just one source but on past form I would go with the RCTS. The balance of probability is that C-R should have put 26 instead of 28. Oh dear! Chris As it is one of the volumes published "after the event" so to say, I tend to go with RCTS, any errors or omissions were hopefully corrected by then. Whether there is any further info in part 14 I wouldn't know. Keith Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Phil Posted August 12, 2011 Share Posted August 12, 2011 Just had a thrash through my library and cannot really offer a great deal, apart from a shot of green W26W stabled outside Worcester works on 25th July 1962. This is in British Railways Western Region in colour by Laurence Waters, published by Ian Allan. The caption reads six of the later batch of railcars survived in service until October 1962, some of which were painted in the standard BR DMU green livery. 30th August 1962 saw W24W in immaculate crimson and cream livery standing at Kidderminster to work the 2.5pm service to Shrewsbury - obviously not green. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cctransuk Posted August 12, 2011 Author Share Posted August 12, 2011 30th August 1962 saw W24W in immaculate crimson and cream livery standing at Kidderminster to work the 2.5pm service to Shrewsbury - obviously not green. Thanks for that !! Below are low. res. B&W images of my two new transfer sheets for BR ex-GWR diesel railcars in carmine & cream and green liveries respectively. They can now be ordered under the sheet numbers illustrated. Clearly, I will have to deleted W24W from Sheet BL119 !! Regards, John Isherwood, Cambridge Custom Transfers. http://www.cctrans.freeserve.co.uk/ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim V Posted August 12, 2011 Share Posted August 12, 2011 Just had a thrash through my library and cannot really offer a great deal, apart from a shot of green W26W stabled outside Worcester works on 25th July 1962. This is in British Railways Western Region in colour by Laurence Waters, published by Ian Allan. The caption reads six of the later batch of railcars survived in service until October 1962, some of which were painted in the standard BR DMU green livery. 30th August 1962 saw W24W in immaculate crimson and cream livery standing at Kidderminster to work the 2.5pm service to Shrewsbury - obviously not green. Regrettably there are a horrendous number of mistakes throughout that book in the captions, and the shot of Bewdley with W20W is printed back to front! No wonder I picked it up remaindered! Apart from the wrong captions, it's a good book, but I can't rely on anything written in there. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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