S.A.C Martin Posted September 19, 2012 Share Posted September 19, 2012 It seems to be the done thing to have a layout thread, so simultaneous with the post on my blog, I'm starting this thread to try and garner some much needed advice. Inbetween work on my veritable and varied fleet of steam locomotives, I have begun clearing out my railway room in anticipation of the first section of my "Pathfinder" layout (the concept of which is described here, here and here on my RMweb). Remembering the priorities I covered in one of my previous blog entries: Number one on my list of changes to my hobby is to the Track. My second priority has to be running trains. My final priority is better utilization of space. My idea is a simple scenic layout; a double track main line with no turnouts or complicated track formations, and the ability to bring together all three priorities in one first test section. Having studied and poured over photographs and books for a veritable age this summer gone, I have come up with a section of track that I think is perfect for a first attempt at building a "proper" and historically accurate, portable home layout. This section near Potter's Bar - Ganwick - is perfect. Two tunnels, one at either end, offer natural scenic breaks. The length of this section may need to be compressed slightly, but we'll see on that point dependent on the length and space available to me. The curvature of the track gives me a perfect excuse to have a rectangular baseboard (perhaps using a baseboard kit, or converting my previously built set for the now canned Sidcup layout), with the track deliberately not parallel to the baseboard to give a better sense of realism. There is scope for shaping and creating hills from polysterene, woods and fields using all manner of scenic products, and (from an initial Google Maps observation of the area), potential for careful use of resin buildings, modified, to represent the minimal housing in the area. Track would be strictly built using either C&L or Exactoscale products (or both given the recent merger!) to give the most accurate look possible in OO gauge. Thus, here is a rough edit of the satellite view above the area in question: There is scope for making this section of the layout long, but thin, and portable in two sections too. A temporary fiddle yard would go behind the operator and would in time be utilized as part of the larger overall layout. Curved sections separate to the two main boards would provide the running lines to the temporary fiddle yard. Operationally, this would give me a great variety of locomotives and rolling stock (most if not all of which I can already use from my collection) and lots of named trains and surburban stock to add interest to the spectacle of of trains running up and down the main line. Now, I am aware that this section of the east coast main line is in reality a four track mainline today. It was not always a four track main line, from that I gather, but I am having great difficulty pinning a date down on the addition of the extra two lines. I have read in one of my volumes on the LNER that the widening was completed in 1959. If it is was prior to 1950, then I will have to model four main lines, or potentially (for scenic interest!) showing the building of the extra lines and tunnel sections, but if not, then just the two main lines become a much easier proposition for this part of my Pathfinder test build. If anyone knows and could confirm when the extra two running lines were added, it would be much appreciated. See what you think of the initial idea, any and all thoughts are welcome. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
devondynosoar118 Posted September 19, 2012 Share Posted September 19, 2012 There is a film of the widening of potters bar tunnel by British Transport Films called "Work in Progress" that may help with dates, it was released in 1951. As an alternative to rectangular boards there was a good how to on curved boards in the September Railway Modeller. With that gentle track curve a curved front and curved back scene would look stunning. Looks like an excellent section to model. Don't rule out scratch built buildings or card kits, some of the weathered textures made by Scalescenes and similar companies are pretty astonishing for much less than the cost of resin. Given the skill displayed in your locomotive modelling this layout should be a real winner. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
paperman Posted September 19, 2012 Share Posted September 19, 2012 Hi, I have the quadrupling of the Hadley Wood / Potters Bar section completed in May 1959. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cary hill Posted September 19, 2012 Share Posted September 19, 2012 Looks like the perfect scenario for a "watching the trains go by" layout , a sub-genre of which there are not enough good examples. How will you pass the test of establishing time and place when no trains are running - will the two tunnel mouths suffice or are there other infrastructure items which can be readily incorporated? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
devondynosoar118 Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 The fact that it is double track will set the time period for ECML enthusiasts, the rest of us will be left guessing until a train arrives, which is not a bad thing, adds a bit of drama. Aside from power lines and phone masts etc I doubt the countryside there has changed much. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
S.A.C Martin Posted September 20, 2012 Author Share Posted September 20, 2012 There is a film of the widening of potters bar tunnel by British Transport Films called "Work in Progress" that may help with dates, it was released in 1951. As an alternative to rectangular boards there was a good how to on curved boards in the September Railway Modeller. With that gentle track curve a curved front and curved back scene would look stunning. Looks like an excellent section to model. Don't rule out scratch built buildings or card kits, some of the weathered textures made by Scalescenes and similar companies are pretty astonishing for much less than the cost of resin. Given the skill displayed in your locomotive modelling this layout should be a real winner. Thanks for that, I spent last night watching that on YouTube. Very interesting and it does mean I can happily model 1948-50 with just the original tunnel entrances and the double track mainline. I agree regarding scratchbuilt buildings (the tunnels will be scratchbuilt) but as it happens there are two resin buildings I already have which are very similar to the two main houses above the Ganwick tunnel end. It would be a shame to waste them, though I am confident they can be bashed a little to suit better. Hi, I have the quadrupling of the Hadley Wood / Potters Bar section completed in May 1959. Yes, that's the date I have. I don't have an exact date for the start, but it appears to be at the tail end of 1950/early 1951 so I may just about get away with it! The fact that it is double track will set the time period for ECML enthusiasts, the rest of us will be left guessing until a train arrives, which is not a bad thing, adds a bit of drama. Aside from power lines and phone masts etc I doubt the countryside there has changed much. How will you pass the test of establishing time and place when no trains are running - will the two tunnel mouths suffice or are there other infrastructure items which can be readily incorporated? I have two main ideas. The first is "shadows". I anticipate building a lighting rig (and this will be why we have to have square baseboards) for which the direction of the lighting (and the colour of the lighting) will move around the baseboards during a full "day" of operations (i.e. the programmed diagrams in a single running session) so that the shadows from the tunnel, the hedges in the fields, and the large conifer trees in the Spoilbank Wood end can change the overall look of the layout, and the trains. The second idea I will divulge a little more on when I when I am confident I have it all thought out. Two comments from the blog entry which I will respond to here as well: I have a fuzzy pic of an A4 there in 1962 from somewhere on t'internet (can't remember where) that shows 4 lines of flatbottom rail. Not much help though : ) The stock of Copley Hill will look rather graceful zipping through here. How long will the boards be? If the boards are to scale from the red box drawn above they would be approx 32 feet long. Me thinks some inevitable compression is in order for SAC. Absolutely, compression is necessary (vital!) and will be done. I am looking into standard board sizes and mulling it all over. At a push, I can do 21 foot long by 2-3ft wide on three separate boards. An idea of the centre baseboard being "optional" - i.e. the outer two will connect together as well as connect to the outer ends of the centre one, appeals. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJ427 Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 I have two main ideas. The first is "shadows". I anticipate building a lighting rig (and this will be why we have to have square baseboards) for which the direction of the lighting (and the colour of the lighting) will move around the baseboards during a full "day" of operations (i.e. the programmed diagrams in a single running session) so that the shadows from the tunnel, the hedges in the fields, and the large conifer trees in the Spoilbank Wood end can change the overall look of the layout, and the trains. I really like this idea. It will turn a simple watch the trains go by scenario into something that could be quite dramatic. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
devondynosoar118 Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 Good job you have buildings, speed of modelling will benefit. You can still have a lighting rig with curved boards, it will just have to be cantilevered from the back. Love the idea of moving light sources, could be a real standout feature. If I had such a good prototype with great lighting I would have to have a curved front to mimic the track, and curved back scene to stop shadows in the corners at sun rise and sun set. You can still make the backs square, I have on mine, the curved back scene just cuts off the corner. I can put up a pic to illustrate if needed. A straight front will aggravate you after a while, it has on mine where I have a corner at the front. As the curve of the track is fairly gentle the curve will not be much harder to do but will give a big visual gain. I promise not to mention it again now! Glad the dates could be finalised. I fancied modelling the works on the tunnel with the concrete plant and the narrow gauge railway when I watched the film. Going to be a fantastic layout whatever. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
S.A.C Martin Posted September 20, 2012 Author Share Posted September 20, 2012 Love the idea of moving light sources, could be a real standout feature. If I had such a good prototype with great lighting I would have to have a curved front to mimic the track, and curved back scene to stop shadows in the corners at sun rise and sun set. You can still make the backs square, I have on mine, the curved back scene just cuts off the corner. I can put up a pic to illustrate if needed. Please feel free - I need all the help and inspiration I can get! A straight front will aggravate you after a while, it has on mine where I have a corner at the front. As the curve of the track is fairly gentle the curve will not be much harder to do but will give a big visual gain.I promise not to mention it again now! I'll certainly have a think, but one of the things I wanted was to make the layout easy to transport. I suppose if I make the footprint a rectangle and curve the layout within in, it would do the same job...will have to have a big long think about this. Glad the dates could be finalised. I fancied modelling the works on the tunnel with the concrete plant and the narrow gauge railway when I watched the film. Going to be a fantastic layout whatever. I wish you hadn't said that, I had similar dark thoughts myself! However that would make it look odd with 1948 liveried locomotives and rolling stock bustling around (I want to run a few LNER liveried A4s and A3s along with the inevitable Peppercorn A1s and Thompson Pacifics to burst through the tunnel). This shot from 1952 is exactly what I want to depict, more or less. 60006 being one of my favourite of the A4s, for some reason or t'other...! In fact, Ganwick curve seems to have been a popular spotting location! Which has further cemented my thoughts on it being perfect for showcasing my collection and fulfilling the desire to run trains. Not just put them around Copley Hill and take photographs, actually get them doing what they should be doing, pulling trains! EDIT: And I've changed the title. Ganwick Curve seems more appropriate. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
devondynosoar118 Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 If they can move Lime St then it must be possible to move a board with a convex front. I am sure some clever bod here will have a plan. You could make the tunnel mouth and adjacent are a pull out section and swap in the works and non working narrow gauge for the later period. It would pay to make the tunnel roof moveable for track maintainance anyway. Pictures are great, I can see them in model form already. If I wasn't wedded to the western I would certainly have done this bit of the ECML in N. my dad lived at potters bar and regularly rode out of Kings Cross behind an A4. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Physicsman Posted September 20, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted September 20, 2012 Simon, the lighting idea is a good one. If you are going to the trouble of being able to move the lights in azimuth (from easterly at sunrise to westerly at sunset) and also change the colour, are you also considering changing the altitude of the light source? Not only could you then vary the appearance during the day, but you could have seasonal variation too. All you'd need was the ability to raise the light source (peak altitude of the sun from the UK in mid June is around 60 degrees) and lower it (altitude in December being around 15 degrees). Sorry if this is too complicated an idea to put into practice! Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
edcayton Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 Just a thought, but to simplify, possibly need less compression and to avoid the 2/4 track conflict, have you considered doing between the tunnels at Welwyn? Ed Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timara Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 Just a thought, but to simplify, possibly need less compression and to avoid the 2/4 track conflict, have you considered doing between the tunnels at Welwyn? Ed Funny that Ed, I was going to suggest exactly that..... Operational interest too and it loses a vast amount of local traffic from KX to Welwyn GC...... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tom F Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 Modelling a section of ECML. I'm envious!! You are lucky Simon. Being able to model so many trains with so many classes of locomotives passing by. The only thing is, you are going to need one heck of a fiddleyard for all these trains. Freight, service trains, named trains... Will be fun to plan and build mind! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
S.A.C Martin Posted September 21, 2012 Author Share Posted September 21, 2012 Just a thought, but to simplify, possibly need less compression and to avoid the 2/4 track conflict, have you considered doing between the tunnels at Welwyn? Ed I did consider that, but the reason for doing this much simpler section is to get me started on the scenic and trackside of things. The simplicity of the area chosen and the ability to compress it without losing the essence of the countryside feel was absolutely vital. Operationally, I've a few ideas for the fiddle yards and the control aspect of the layout, so it'll hopefully prove a good spectacle. Funny that Ed, I was going to suggest exactly that..... Operational interest too and it loses a vast amount of local traffic from KX to Welwyn GC...... The local traffic was part of the reason for picking this section. It won't just be a selection of named expresses, I envisage the majority being local trains and freight. Modelling a section of ECML. I'm envious!! You are lucky Simon. Being able to model so many trains with so many classes of locomotives passing by. The only thing is, you are going to need one heck of a fiddleyard for all these trains. Freight, service trains, named trains... Will be fun to plan and build mind! That's essentially the point of Ganwick Curve. Eventually it will form a part of a much larger home (but mobile) layout, and the fiddleyard will provide storage and swapping points for trains...but that I will cover in detail closer to the time. Other modellers have managed such a feat in their own homes in a much smaller space. The beauty of this layout will be the simplicity of the scenic section, combined with two specific fiddle yards. I am not designing this in the conventional manner of a single shared fiddle yard either, so there is method in my madness, for sure... Thanks for your thoughts gents. I'll relate more details of my idea later on. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
devondynosoar118 Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 I think two rotating traverser fiddle yards might be required. The downside of a 2 fiddle yard system is the need for extra operators to keep the traffic moving. You could have a home and away configuration, with a larger continuos run with a traditional fan type fiddle yard at the back for exhibitions and a more compact set up for home. Is DCC looming for this layout? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
S.A.C Martin Posted September 21, 2012 Author Share Posted September 21, 2012 I think two rotating traverser fiddle yards might be required. The downside of a 2 fiddle yard system is the need for extra operators to keep the traffic moving. You could have a home and away configuration, with a larger continuos run with a traditional fan type fiddle yard at the back for exhibitions and a more compact set up for home. Is DCC looming for this layout? DCC is a given, and the idea is automation, including coupling/uncoupling of trains. The idea behind this particular layout is not supreme operational accuracy, but a decent representation of a timetable and the spectacle of trains running. I can't achieve supreme operational accuracy in the space I have, with such limited funds, so you look for other ways of achieving much the same thing...through spectacle. One of the things which has been an eye opener is the fiddle yard for the High Wycombe Model Railway Club's new layout. Some truly stunning, but brilliantly simple, ideas going on there that should be the future of all home and exhibition layouts. (Which reminds me, I must pass on my membership pack to the club soon). So this layout is not going to be designed and built using conventional ideas of what a model railway layout, home or exhibitional, is about. I'm going as far away from that as possible. It will be able to be run by just one operator (me!) and provide a great spectacle I hope. As for the two fiddle yard conundrum - the solution to this problem is beautifully simple in its setup, and I have in fact tested the theory with great success in my garden. I am looking forward to sharing more when I've drawn it up a bit better than my crude notepad sketches. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
devondynosoar118 Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 Sounds intriguing, can't wait to see the solution. Will the automation be computer controlled? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
S.A.C Martin Posted September 21, 2012 Author Share Posted September 21, 2012 Sounds intriguing, can't wait to see the solution. Will the automation be computer controlled? Yes - I have been experimenting with various control systems and finally come to the conclusion that, for what I want out of this layout, I need to sell my Bachmann Dynamis system ASAP to fund the new system. Precision movements and speeds are not essential for the way this layout is designed to work! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
devondynosoar118 Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 Have you seen this? http://www.gaugemaster.com/Roco/RC10810%20Z21%20English.pdf Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 Eventually it will form a part of a much larger home (but mobile) layout, Until you have children then it'll get knocked back big style! It's an interesting project; if you're builging your own track, why not go for EM or P4? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
S.A.C Martin Posted September 21, 2012 Author Share Posted September 21, 2012 Until you have children then it'll get knocked back big style! No doubt about that James! Hopefully I've got a good four or five years before that. It's an interesting project; if you're building your own track, why not go for EM or P4? Not for me I'm afraid. I've no doubt it looks superior, and you have to be both talented and patient to do it, and I am neither. I do like running my RTRs and kit bashes. My compromise is to go OO finescale-ish on the scenic sections. C&L components. In the case of Ganwick, it'll be perfect for just learning the ropes as it's just two sets of double track mainline, bullhead rail. Not decrying EM or P4 at all - they are excellent mediums and many modellers use them to create some incredible layouts. But it's not for me or for this particular project. Perhaps one day when I am older, wiser, and hopefully better at modelling. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidw Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 Sounds like a very straight forward and well concieved idea. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 No doubt about that James! Hopefully I've got a good four or five years before that. Make sure it's easily storable for the future - I think your twenties could be the worst time to start something too permanent! Have you tried building any track yet? Even in 00 the different techniques which could be used are quite varied; I'd favour wooden sleepers as the tones achievable can be very subtle indeed. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
westerner Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 How much compression will there be. Looking at the scale on the google map it would appear that the model would be between 26 and 32 feet long. Love the idea of moving lights. Have you also cosidered sound effects and commentary. I seem to rememeber a layout (of the ECML) whcich strted with birds singing and then the bells in signal box before the trains arrived and all the sounds were linked to a loose commentary. Therew as also a layout I saw at Warley about 4 years ago which had a similar idea. Both worked extremely well. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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