Do all train sets have to be tailchasers?

[traction]

I think the title says it all really.

Having looked at most of the train-sets you can buy they are all the oval of track tail chasers.

 

There are a few issues with this, not least of all the size!!

I have built a copy of the Hornby TrakMat in N-gauge which measures about 2.5x3.5ft easily fits in a spare bedroom with space to gain access on all sides.

The OO version is 6x4ft when you actually cut a baseboard to this size it's amazing just how big it is.

 

Having taken my N-gauge TrakMat layout to Mansfield exhibition and Trains4u open days it's amazing how many parents have a double take to realise that it is the TrakMat layout and how small it is.

The most common comment is that it's such a manageable size and won't need to be dismantled when finished playing with.

 

Having thought a little more about this I wondered why a non-oval train-set has ever been released, OK I can see those new to the hobby may expect that a tail chaser is all there is but there is more to it than that.

 

Taking this another step further I had a look at the Woodland scenics layout kits and although very USA they don't contain everything to build a full layout.

 

So the idea for a complete layout in a box developed.

I went for Hornby as they produce everything required to build full layout, from track, power/controllers, rolling stock to all the scenic items you could need.

 

The shopping list was made a nice huge box of items were delivered.

The concept was simple, to build a simple shunting layout not a tail chaser but using everything from Hornby.

As it's a shunting layout I went for a simple track plan to create the Inglenook shunting puzzle, at least once the layout is built there can be hours of head scratching trying to work out the positioning of the wagons which can only add to the interest.

 

 

So there we go the track plan and concept, as I wanted to try and keep it at a manageable size I went for short wheel base wagons to keep the sidings short, which allowed me to make the whole layout on a baseboard of 1220mm x 480mm

 

 

Nice box of goodies delivered.

 

More to come.

 

Cheers

 

Ian

Edited December 29, 2012 by traction

[Black Sheep]

I think most of the train set packs are tail chasers as it's expected, many will be bought for children, weather they are bought as a gift for the child or by a parent or grandparent to enjoy with the child.

 

It could be interesting to see how sales of a set compared when the same size box, with the same (for arguments sake) 0-6-0 Hunslet shunter and wagons with a similar number of pieces of track along with a couple of plans on the back of the box of how to set up an inglenook or minorities layout against same box, same stock, oval.

 

with passenger sets it's a bit beyond the uninitiated to consider a passenger train being propelled or shunted.

 

When working at a model shop and asked for advice on train sets (more so in N due to the lack of pre-packaged, but still true in 00) I would occasionally, if there wasn't stock available in a pre packaged set, suggest selecting a locomotive from the cabinet, some rolling stock from the shelf and then a Peco track pack which comes with enough for a loop, some sidings and a Peco track plans book, to which we used to add a basic Bachmann controller for an extra £10

 

used to work out a similar price to a pre-packaged set.

[33212]

Hello, I think train sets and model railways are two separate entities. Train sets are for children and those new to the hobby who are just finding their way around, and a model railway is one step up in that it is probably more prototypical in appearance and operation, so would more likely to be end to end, or have a fiddle yard off scene if it was based on a through station..

 

Regards

 

Matt

[Black Sheep]

Hello, I think train sets and model railways are two separate entities. Train sets are for children and those new to the hobby who are just finding their way around, and a model railway is one step up in that it is probably more prototypical in appearance and operation, so would more likely to be end to end, or have a fiddle yard off scene if it was based on a through station.. Regards Matt

 

While this is true, train sets can be an inexpensive way (compared to buying the stock off the shelf) to acquire a locomotive and train

 

My DP1 was bought in the Farish set, Having sold off the track and controller that I didn't want the Locomotive and coaches cost a similar amount to buying the locomotive on it's own (that and the roof was the right colour but that's been another thread)

[birdseyecircus]

A decent slow speed loco is a must too. Hornby's little 0-4-0 chassis is ok for racing but not for shunting.

 

Paul

['CHARD]

I think most of the train set packs are tail chasers as it's expected, many will be bought for children, weather they are bought as a gift for the child or by a parent or grandparent to enjoy with the child.

 

It could be interesting to see how sales of a set compared when the same size box, with the same (for arguments sake) 0-6-0 Hunslet shunter and wagons with a similar number of pieces of track along with a couple of plans on the back of the box of how to set up an inglenook or minorities layout against same box, same stock, oval.

 

 

 

Interesting way to approach the Ethnicity, Diversity and Inclusion mandate of the current era.  

 

Maybe that's the next direction to expand the hobby's clientele... 

[traction]

Right where was I, domestic chores beckoned!

 

Thanks for the replies guys and yes I can agree that those new to the hobby could be put off, but wouldn't it be nice to see different types of layout as well being available?

 

I wanted to try and do this to see what it would be like and how much it would all cost.

 

First thing was the wood, two sheets of 6mm ply 606mmx1220mm and some PSE 44x18mm all in with PVA glue and screws was I think about £45.

 

The baseboard was built and the track laid, now I went for the remote un-couplers which turned out to be a nightmare, looking back I would go with the spring loaded uncoupling ramps this would remove the need for the extra accessory decoder and make installing them much easier!

 

The instructions are just a few pictures the 4 lines of text just tell you that you might need to file the ribs down on the top as some locos may not go over them.

 

After tweaking them about managed to get them to work but a few things to note:-

 

These uncouplers fit between two lengths of R600 track or the center of a double R601 track, this would have made the sidings too long, easy fix cut the standard straight in half and the turn the two ends to meet each other, the reason for this is that there is a slight undercut on the sleeper plastic web where the clips on the uncoupling frame need to sit so the spacing is quite critical.

 

 

This part fits between the two ends of track as shown below

 

 

Now in the blurb it does say that you can use the surface mounted point motor or the standard motor mounted from below the baseboard, not wanting to see anything I went for the standard motor, which I think fits in the slots created by the plastic insert between the two lengths of track shown below, you can just about see the metal prongs sticking up, this however ends up very flimsy and nothing holds very well at all, in the end I glued the plastic insert between the track ends to make it as solid as I could.

 

 

The point motor pin fits inside the wedge shape slide part, well it's the only way I could get it to work as the pin moves across, the slide moves across and the wedge shape matches up with one on the ramp to raise or lower it.

 

 

Now the frame "should" clip into the ends of the track to hold it in place, on all three units the tags from the frame were just not long enough so when operated the whole lot was thrown from the track, another bit of super glue to hold it in place sorted that out, photo below shows the tags which fit below the rail and above the plastic sleeper webbing.

 

 

I did manage to get it all to work eventually, but it's a fierce action and does throw the wagons off the track, so I have put a lot of weight in the wagons and added a little bit of sponge to the bottom of the point motor pin to damp the effect down seems to work ok.

I have no idea if the surface mounted motor has a slower or smoother action so it would be much easier to use one of these but it does say that you can use either!

As with the point motors I use a bit of wet and dry between the motor and track this sits over the hole in the baseboard for ballasting.

 

 

 

So once this was all done time to get power on and do some proper tests.

Keeping with a layout in a box I used the power clip, which I was able to hide behind the tunnel portal.

Once I had made sure everything worked OK I put on some low temperature hot melt glue to hold it all in place a small hole drilled to push the wire through and a loop to stop it being pulled out.

 

 

Once all tested and I made sure it all worked OK I then cracked on with the ballasting, the gaps where I had connected the rails, were filled with off cuts of sleeper.

 

There is a use for wrapping paper!

 

 

Then covered with Modroc, I actually managed to find some Hornby stuff, although I think they no longer do it.

This is the only part that is not Hornby the backscene, I could have left it completely open and just dotted some hills or even left it flat, but I thought this would look a little better.

 

 

 

Tea Time!!

 

More later

 

Cheers

 

Ian

[class"66"]

Nice work so far buddy....

[Tony_S]

Before my son had a double oval 6 by 4 trainset he had lots of Brio. He never set that up as a roundy round railway. It went everywhere. At the time I had an end to end narrow gauge layout but he wanted one where he could race Percy and Thomas (he was about 3 at the time)

[birdseyecircus]

This and the £100 layout thread make interesting reading, its great watching back to basics stuff.

 

Paul

[traction]

The ballast was a mix of black fine and medium.

 

The paint was just some brown poster paint I had knocking about.

 

Once this has all dried it was time for the grass, I mixed the light and medium green poly fibre strands and using a puffer bottle sprayed these over the layout.

I then randomly sprayed the dark green over this and held it in place with the Deluxe scenic spray glue.

 

 

Trees, trees and more trees!!

 

 

I bought some of the ready made trees, but also a box of the Pro Tree kit-deciduous which holds 10 trees of varying heights of 63mm to 100mm. Inside the box are 3 packets of slightly different shades of green which is the same as the foliage fibre clusters.

The pro kits contain twisted wire tree armatures ready for the foliage mesh to be draped across the branches.

The starter kits are flat brass etched trees that you twist to give the desired shape, there are more in a box and they are cheaper to buy.

 

 

The layout is complete, yes I could add a few more trees and just keep adding to it, but I'm not going to.

The idea was to build a complete layout using all Hornby products and that's what I've done.

This could be almost a modular layout as I have left the tunnel open apart from a sliding door so it could easily be extended as shown below

 

 

The layout as it stands now

 

 

 

 

Instructions and addresses of the points and un-couplers have been added to the mimic drawing makes it easier to remember.

I just printed it out stuck it to card then used sticky back plastic to cover it.

 

 

I took photos of all of the wagons, printed these out onto an A4 sheet of paper glued to card and again covered with sticky back plastic for protection. I cut them out to about the size of playing cards so it's easy to shuffle the deck and select the 5 random wagons which need to be formed into the train.

 

It all works OK so that's a bonus!

 

This pdf is a list of all the parts used.

The prices are from the Hornby web site but shopping around you can save a lot of money on these prices(I did)!!

Total cost doesn't include the Select DCC controller or the Class08 loco which I already had.

 

Parts Used.pdf

 

Hope it proves useful in some way.

I think there could be interest for some people to have a complete layout in a box like this, yes I know it's not for everybody but surely for some.

It could be a good way at the end of the year to clear all the stock of items that are no longer going to be produced as well.

 

Well that was my Christmas project and very enjoyable it was too, I have been in correspondence with Simon Kohler who has showed great interest, not that it means anything, but it's very nice to have his feedback and over Christmas as well!

I put my money where my mouth is and had great fun in the process.

Now it's going to be sold (hopefully) to fund the next project!

 

Cheers

 

Ian

[Saddletank]

Interesting topic, I'm following this one!

 

As I'm only just going back down the rabbits hole into railway modelling, may I get my soapbox out for a mo' and share my view as a relative newcomer?

 

First time round, I had a Bachmann 08 shunter set when I was 9, bought as a Christmas present along with a loop of track and some points. It was interesting for a few days but then got boring. Grandad (and I) got a 6x4 sheet of MDF, some flex track and the next level up in the Hornby track packs, and nailed it all down in a double loop. It was atrocious, but we didnt know any better. Had the 'grown up' world of model railways been more open then I might have ventured to build something interesting and with sense of purpose, rather than trying to make locos fly round as fast as possible without departing the board.

 

Fast forward 16 years, I'm finally getting into the idea that I could build something worthwhile. I've seen Pecos track packs that let you make up one each of the layouts in their plans book, and they're great for newcomers - I would have been happy and become much more engaged with the hobby had I had this option available.

 

If a company could run an offer of, for instance, one of these layout track packs, a loco and some coaches or shunter and wagons (to suit the layout) and necessary power supply and control equipment, i see no no reason why it shouldn't far outsell all-in-one sets Hornby etc get away with producing. A fixed price structure of around £180 to £250 would probably be about right if all that was need to be added was baseboards and electricity, and probably more reassuring to parents wondering how much more on top of the basic set it will cost them.

 

It would need to include one vital thing though - a decent booklet explaining how to build baseboards, lay track, add scenery, and - quite importantly I think - explain a bit about how real railways are operated. Stuff you would probably know as second nature but is an alien concept to a beginner: controlling speeds; runaround loops, shunting wagons, whatever! Of course all this can be found out online but why not make it easier to make a start?

 

I think that would be a far more appropriate and inclusive approach to keeping the hobby alive.

 

By the way, I recently bought a Farish 150DMU set out of impatience to get started. Advised it was a lovely model, good controller, track included in the box, all for £100. Bosh, paid and got home. Realised over the next couple of hours the enormity of my foolishness: I want DCC not DC, code 55 track, not set track, and it will be difficult to justify inclusion of a South Wales Arriva DMU in 80s Scotland! Alas there was nothing else available in the shop in N, and impatience got the better of me!

Edited December 29, 2012 by Saddletank

[Kenton]

I think most of the train set packs are tail chasers as it's expected, many will be bought for children, weather they are bought as a gift for the child or by a parent or grandparent to enjoy with the child.

 

I can accept the difference between a train set (track and train) versus a model railway "set" (track, train and buildings - even scenics) but I cannot accept the oval of track. If that logic that ovals of track (the roundy roundy) is for children and the end-to-end is an adult model railways - then most of us had better duck pretty quickly ... but the logic is there.

<br /><br />

I think it another one of these dangerous areas of stereotype just like boys in blue and girls in pink; dolls for girls and mechano for boys; train sets for "children" have to be ovals because "children" cannot imagine how silly it is for a train to go round and round chasing its tail, because we as adults cannot face the thought of anything a little more inventive.

<br /><br />

About time the mold was broken.

[traction]

I was given the Hornby magazine annual for Christmas and for the second year they have gone with building a new layout as a theme for the annual.

 

They set themselves some limits though!

 

1. The layout had to have a London Midland Region theme and be set in the mid-1950s through to the mid-1960s

2. A mainline setting in the Peak District.

 

All well and good so far.

The final point just made me laugh.

 

3. It was to be built in a TYPICAL SPACE AVAILABLE IN A HOME.

 

Now it could be just me here, but what TYPICAL size room would you have available in your home?

 

Here's the answer and I quote:-

 

"So, with a room measuring JUST 11ft x 10ft we set about building Topley Dale"

 

Is this just me, 11ft x 10ft, as a typical room available, I must be in the wrong house, also thinking about it, to get around the layout the room would need to be much bigger than that!

That's the size of my dinning room, I did ask the wife though, I bet you can't guess what she said!

 

This was another reason for me to look at building this little shunting plank layout, even at 4ft x 1.5ft it's still big and takes up a lot of room.

I have a bigger than most spare bedroom at 8ft square, with a door in the center of one wall, filling this with a layout would leave no room for any of my tools or modelling gear that goes with it, and no where to actually do any work apart from taking up another room!

 

I think a reality check may be needed, or actually build a layout in a proper TYPICAL size room that is available to most home owners, without the need to build a monster shed in the back garden or convert a loft or garage.

 

Cheers

 

Ian

Edited December 30, 2012 by traction

[Peter Kazmierczak]

I think we sometimes forget how ingrained the idea of a roundy roundy layout is to those new to the hobby. Whenever a layout is depicted in the general media, it's invariably one with lots of trains going round and round and round.

 

I can still clearly remember the first time I saw an end to end layout. It was at an exhibition at the Queen's Hall in Derby. There before me was a long thin layout with a station at one end, a scenic break in the middle, then some strange sidings at the other end.

 

Funny what lingers in the mind.....

[Allegheny1600]

Hi Ian,

An excellent concept! I wish you very well with it and sincerely hope that Hornby take you up on the idea.

As an aside, I'm always so taken with the idea of designing the 'perfect' layout - whether it be operating potential, scenic development or whatever, that I haven't really built anything yet.

In just a few days, you have built a very nice scenic little layout - very well done, Sir!

Cheers,

John E.

[Dave777]

Nice job

[Ozexpatriate]

The concept was simple, to build a simple shunting layout not a tail chaser but using everything from Hornby.

As it's a shunting layout I went for a simple track plan to create the Inglenook shunting puzzle, at least once the layout is built there can be hours of head scratching trying to work out the positioning of the wagons which can only add to the interest.

Ian,

 

It's a great idea.

 

Have you had a chance to test it out with some guinea pigs (or at least children who don't have a model railway) to see whether they find it engaging?

[OnTheBranchline]

What's wrong with tailchasers?

[traction]

Ian,

 

It's a great idea.

 

Have you had a chance to test it out with some guinea pigs (or at least children who don't have a model railway) to see whether they find it engaging?

Hi Oz,

No not had chance to try it out, well my nephew had a quick play but wasn't interested, but to be fair he's in to computer games and being able to shoot or kill things. 

 

 

What's wrong with tailchasers?

There is nothing at all wrong with tailchasers and that has never been said in this thread.

I've built the complete Hornby TrakMat in N-gauge and like watching the trains pass by as I'm sure a lot of people do.

This wasn't about a tailchaser being wrong it was about why do ALL trainsets have to be a tail-chaser why can't there be a mix?

It was also to see if it was possible that a LAYOUT in a box could be made which included everything to finish and run it, a next step if you like from a train set.

 

It could also be that like the TrakMat with the extension packs and buildings, this same principle could be used for a complete layout.

In this case you buy the initial set, which would include the track and ALL rolling stock with controller, along with a baseboard.

This would get you up and running with the shunting puzzle.

The ADD-ON packs could be in stages, such as the scenery details, or the point controls..etc.

 

At present there is nothing like this, yes you can add to the current TrakMat but not scenery wise, it all just sits on a printed paper mat.

 

Hornby are in a great position to be able to do this as they produce everything you would need.

I notice the train set "Codename strike force" That would be a great one to do as the Airfix kits could be used as well to create a really good battle scene.

 

Hope that explains it.

 

Cheers

 

Ian

Edited January 1, 2013 by traction

[SNCF stephen]

I really like this topic and it is interesting to see the views about tail chasers and how much space they take up. One of the reasons I model in N is that I can have a loop and do more with the space I have. My layout room is nowhere near the Hornby TYPICAL layout room and it has to share that room with other stuff (a desktop computer, several bookshelves, guitars/amplifiers/guitar pedals etc) added to that the room is compromised by the fact that the pitch of the roof slices through about half of the room so space is at a real premium. I appreciate I am lucky to have a dedicated space to have a layout but I often think that there needs to be thought given to people who have to put their layouts away. 

 

Well done with the layout. 

 

Stephen

[Katier]

Lovely concept and interesting layout you've created.

 

I definitely agree that Hornby's 'typical' room is WAY wrong..

 

8x8 or thereabouts isn't unusual as that is roughly the size of a typical 

'semi's' box room. 

 

I am definitely lucky in that I have a 12x15ft room which is essentially available for railway.. but would never be able to justify even an 11x12 in there!!!

[traction]

Thanks everybody for the kind words and replies.

 

It would be nice for Hornby Magazine to actually build a layout at a TYPICAL room size, not just one they came up with to get a decent amount fitted on to the layout.

 

With 6ft x 4ft or possibly 8ftx 4ft there needs to be some huge compromises in what you can get on and I think less is definitely more and Setrack curves would have to be used.

 

I believe Paul Lunn has been writing articles for model Rail on different 6ft x 4ft layouts, I really should have bought these magazines and had a go at making one, which would be very interesting.

 

I've built the N-gauge TrakMat layout and most of the layouts I have are in N-gauge exactly for the reason of space constraints.

I think that's going to have to be my next project, to build a reasonable OO layout, as I have now got room in my garage it can be fitted and built in there for the short term.

 

I have noticed another thing though, perhaps not noticeable to many as it's to do with trainsets and the TrakMat, but out of all the trainsets now available from Hornby only two; The Eurostar(analogue) and Mixed Freight(DCC) set actually come with the full TrakMat (1800 x 1200mm)

 

All the other sets come with the Midi Mat(1600 x 1180mm) which has the siding which leaves the bottom of the layout after the level crossing then runs along the bottom then goes up the side missing.

This siding actually connects to the three TrakMat extensions that can be built shown in the 11th and 12th editions of the Hornby track plans books.

Seems a little strange that they do the full TrakMat extension packs A-F but only two current sets can actually use all of the extension packs.

On the Midi-Mats you can only use extension packs A-D.

 

This also includes the new 2013 sets that are to be released as well, all 3 only have the Midi-Mat.

 

OK I understand that it's only a starter and a lot of people won't follow it, in which case why offer it and then have extension plans in the latest Hornby Track Plans book?

 

All seems a bit odd to me.

 

Cheers

 

Ian

Edited January 1, 2013 by traction

[Black Sheep]

I can accept the difference between a train set (track and train) versus a model railway "set" (track, train and buildings - even scenics) but I cannot accept the oval of track. If that logic that ovals of track (the roundy roundy) is for children and the end-to-end is an adult model railways - then most of us had better duck pretty quickly ... but the logic is there.

<br /><br />

I think it another one of these dangerous areas of stereotype just like boys in blue and girls in pink; dolls for girls and mechano for boys; train sets for "children" have to be ovals because "children" cannot imagine how silly it is for a train to go round and round chasing its tail, because we as adults cannot face the thought of anything a little more inventive.

<br /><br />

About time the mold was broken.

I was not meaning that children must have ovals as they can not imagine that it is silly for a train to go round and round - at the age of 10 I got a Hornby starter set which was an oval, having saved up pocket money I had expanded the fleet of wagons and the track, and had built a few end to end layouts on my bedroom floor.

 

What I was trying to say is, many children are very content to watch the train go past over and over again, because that is what they enjoy doing with the train set. Others will take to shunting things back and forth.

[ess1uk]

A great looking little layout.

Given me some ideas