Converting to EM and Handbuilt Track

[hayfield]

Michael

 

If at the moment you are not committed to any make of track it may be worth looking at the Exactoscale fast track bases. These are 1.6 mm thick as against a tad under 1 mm for C&L and SMP. My thoughts go back to using SMP in the old days and if a pin was pressed too hard the track would bend in causing gauge narrowing

 

I see you have used ply sleepers, as said previously these are now available in both sizes, however if using plastic flexi track would a better result be achieved by using plastic sleepers. Now I am not a fan of the thin plastic sleepers, as these can curl if not stuck down fully over time. But the Exactoscale sprue's are really worth a look. Not only are there about 180 timbers on the 3 sprue's in a packet, there are plenty of very long timbers and a 14" wide timber on each sprue for the crossing nose sleeper if required. All for about £8, great value

[Michael Woolford]

Hi Michael,

 

Prototypically a slip in a transition curve would be unusual to say the least. But Templot will happily let you do that if it's necessary to fit the available space.

 

Martin.

Hi Martin, 

 

I am having a play with it right now and have decided to try and put a double slip in place of the two turnouts that are toe to toe. To get the half diamond to line up, it is on a transition. I am more than happy to have a go with it on a transition curve but is there actually a prototype example that you know of? I could of course change the crossing angle/position to line it up, but I am tight for space which means that I currently have a 1 in 6 crossing angle. Below is a screenshot, showing the area I'm referring to, along with one of the images I posted yesterday, which shows how it was with the two turnouts toe to toe.

 

Michael

[martin_wynne]

I am more than happy to have a go with it on a transition curve but is there actually a prototype example that you know of?

 

Hi Michael,

 

A slip on a mathematical transition? No, or at least not in traditional chaired track. Transition curves are normally used where there is a cant gradient (increasing superelevation) which means in effect that there is a twist in the track. Switch rails inserted in a twist wouldn't be able to slide properly or align with the stock rail. There is no major reason not to insert a slip as a special one-off in a flat transition curve, but I'm not aware of any.

 

What is much more common is for an effective transition to be created by using a different fixed radius between each crossing in a diamond. This is often the case for a double junction, for example. This method of designing a double junction also allows standard crossing angles to be used, rather than the older method of having a single radius running through, which usually creates odd crossing angles.

 

Here for example the turnout on the left is a C-9.5, with a turnout radius of 1457mm.

 

 

The first V-crossing on the diamond is 1:7.5, and the radius between there and the turnout is 1142mm.

 

The K-crossings are 1:5, and the radius in the first half-diamond is 1033mm.

 

The far V-crossing is 1:3.75, and the radius in the second half-diamond is 840mm.

 

The branch track beyond there is at 775mm radius.

 

So an effective transition is created with radii 1457 - 1142 - 1033 - 840 - 775 mm.

 

And the crossing angles are 9.5, 7.5, 5, 3.75 , all curviform. Both K-crossings must be the same angle of course, and the main roads aligned.

 

In this example the main-road radius is constant, but the principle is the same if you want to vary that through each leg of the diamond.

 

Having created the diamond you can then add slip roads as required in the usual way. Some adjustments to the slip road radius and the position and size of the slip switches may be needed if there is a significant difference between the two half-diamonds.

 

(To create this I made much use of the new CTRL+F12 adjustable turnout-road length function. I knew it would be useful, but only after adding it have I realised just how useful it is. )

 

On the other hand in models we are nearly always using sharper curves than the prototype and working in a cramped space, so I think we are justified in using flat mathematical transitions where the prototype would more likely use a series of fixed radii.

 

regards,

 

Martin.

[Michael Woolford]

Martin,

Many thanks for the explanation. I know you have already looked at the box file and will know about the changes that I made. I have made the necessary changes as described in my previous post and everything now lines up nicely. However, Martin did point out to me that at one particular location, I do not have a sufficient track spacing. This is something that I will have to look at when I get a chance. It can hopefully be fixed with some small tweaks to the geometry of one section of track.

Here is a screenshot (exported CAD model) of the progress so far.

There remain only a few details to add which include the turntable road and back roads along with the necessary timber shoving.

I have also made some progress on the track building. Other than the tie bars and some cosmetic fishplates, I now have a finished turnout. I am very impressed with the detail achieved by using the exactoscale products and I hope to follow the same standard for the rest of my track building since I am so pleased with how this one looks. I now own some filing jigs for the switchblades and crossing vees so there is some practice to do before using scratch built components in my builds.

I even made a vee last night to see what it would be like and once I understood the method, it was relatively simple. I will have a few more attempts at the vees before moving on to the switchblades.

 

Michael

[fender]

very nice work.

 

when making my first turnout I made the same (minor) error you may have made, judging by the far right side of the last pic. careful that the chairs go the right way round on the lead-in to the crossing vee. you have the keys on the inside instead of the outside of the rail it looks like. I'm not sure if a wheel flange could actually hit it (I've left mine in place with no problems) but thought I'd mention it. easy mistake to make.

[Michael Woolford]

I think you're right, I've just had a look at the other images and everything else seems ok. Thankfully, there are only a couple of chairs on each side that need altering. Looks like I have a quick job for tonight then.

 

Michael

[hayfield]

Michael

 

As on another post its a super bit of building, the benefit of ply sleepers is you can easily break the bond with the chairs, slide them off and back on again

 

With the Exactoscale common crossing chairs for  1-7, 1-8 and I think the 1-10 sets the C chairs are keyed when they should be internal ones, I just swap them over with some spare internal half chairs I have.

 

I solder a piece of thin brass wire from the switch to the stock rail, according to Norman Soloman its quite prototypical as on the real thing there is a connecting wire between the two around the fishplates. This saves on dropper wires

[martin_wynne]

With the Exactoscale common crossing chairs for  1-7, 1-8 and I think the 1-10 sets the C chairs are keyed when they should be internal ones, I just swap them over with some spare internal half chairs I have.

 

Hi John,

 

I'm not too sure what you mean there. Some crossing chairs are keyed on the outside (running side) because there isn't room between the rails for key jaws or to drive the keys. For example the C chair is usually like this:

 

Thanks to Phil Ottley for the pic.

 

Prototype wheel flanges clear the keys but model wheels may not, so you need to be careful and maybe cut away the top of the key.

 

Martin.

[fender]

Hi John,

 

I'm not too sure what you mean there. Some crossing chairs are keyed on the outside (running side) because there isn't room between the rails for key jaws or to drive the keys. For example the C chair is usually like this:

 

Thanks to Phil Ottley for the pic.

 

Prototype wheel flanges clear the keys but model wheels may not, so you need to be careful and maybe cut away the top of the key.

 

Martin.

 

interesting, and also because I think most of us would have cursed and removed a broken chair like that from our models.

[hayfield]

Martin

 

My mistake, but I have a feeling (could be very wrong) that the chairs were too tall and some wheels rubbed against them. They are designed for P4 track and could only be an issue for 00& EM gauges. But thanks for correcting me.

 

Is there on Templot or elsewhere Photos of the special chairs within the turnout, I have some photos from a distance. But not real close up, must go somewhere where I can get some better close up shots.

[Siberian Snooper]

There's a whole load of photo's of GW special chairs on the Templot forum, unable to post a link from my tab, but if you search for GW special chairs you should find them.

 

SS

[hayfield]

Michael

 

Just had a chat with Peter at C&L and there are plenty of 0.8mm check rail chairs as they have found a new box of them. The 1 mm ones are some way off as the art work has not been finished and when they are ready they will be in 2 parts to ease release from the moulds. I will still say the 0.8 mm ones are perfectly adequate for EM and 00sf gauges.

 

Great news that C&L will be at Railex, albeit in a smaller form than the large stand but bigger than the small one. A bit of a relief as I sent in an order over the weekend to be picked up at the show. Rail is the most important as the rest can be sent via Royal Mail

[hayfield]

There's a whole load of photo's of GW special chairs on the Templot forum, unable to post a link from my tab, but if you search for GW special chairs you should find them.

 

SS

  SS 

 

Thanks, I think I have seen them but for some reason they were not quite what I was looking for. Trouble is living just outside NW London there is not much near where I can go and take a few close up photos. Having said that having the time is also a problem

[martin_wynne]

There's a whole load of photo's of GW special chairs on the Templot forum, unable to post a link from my tab, but if you search for GW special chairs you should find them.

 

Go here:

 

 http://85a.co.uk/forum/view_forum.php?id=12&page=4

 

and scroll down to Phil Ottley's topics "GW Special Chairs".

 

Martin.

[hayfield]

Martin

 

Thanks, looking at them again I can see the similarity with 3 bolt versions. The common and obtuse crossings are fine but the switch chairs I think differ

[Michael Woolford]

It's been a while since I posted anything in this topic, so I thought I would share my progress since my last update. 

 

The plan in Templot was put on hold until the last couple of weeks due to college which thankfully is over. I made a start on the timber shoving and Martin pointed out that I had an issue with track spacing at one particular point; further investigation highlighted several point where this was a problem and so there is some tweaking that will need to be made before I can call it complete. I estimate that this will be finished sometime over the next couple of weeks, depending on when I get round to it. 

 

Thankfully, this issue will not impact on my attempts to start track building and today a start was made on the most complex piece of trackwork on the layout. I have decided to start with this piece as I know that if I can get this right, then I should have no problems with anything else I need to build. The piece of track that I have made a start on is an outside single slip with 1 in 4.5 and 1 in 6.5 crossings. This is based on the template that C&L produce which was kindly reproduced in Templot by Paul Boyd of the Templot Club Forum. 

 

I started by producing all of the individual components required other than the switchblade and crossing vees. The next stage is to produce all of the crossing vees, of which there are four (two of each crossing angle are required). The two 1 in 6.5 crossing vees have been made apart from one which needs soldering. Once all four crossing vees have been made, they can then be made into common crossings by attaching the wing rails. The switchblades can then be made, and once they have been completed, assembly can start.

 

This is what everything looks like so far:

I have tacked everything in place over a draft copy of the plan to check the fit before I lay the timbers and start fixing the rails in place. I have done this because I still need to print out a suitable plan to build on. The plan you see does not have some of the timbers in their final position, so I have just made as much progress as I can before a printer is available. 

 

Tomorrow I will be trying to work out which chairs go where by referring to the documents I have. I will probably need to look at diamond and slip drawings for this. Before I start laying rails that need chairs which are used on diamonds and slips, I will be ordering these items from C&L. Hopefully, they will arrive before the weekend so that I can finish this piece over the weekend.

 

Michael

[hayfield]

Michael

 

Good luck in building this, when prefabricating units first I like to leave them slightly long and trim to fit. I tend to use plans as guides and let gauges give me the final lengths.

 

With regard to the chairs, the C&L plans are not too bad as they show not only the standard and switch chairs, but also the bridge chairs. As for the slip chairs, its a bit of looking at the Exactoscale guides http://www.finescale.org.uk/pdfs/1-7%20Diamond%20&%20Slips.pdf  they only show 1-7 & 1-8 slips but there are extra parts on the sprues which I am guessing are for both smaller and larger crossings.

 

Anyway and both common and obtuse crossings are soldered up on copperclad/shim the chairs hold the crossings in place.

 

I will dig out a C&L plan and see if I can assist if you get stuck

[hayfield]

Michael

 

I have had a quick look and the C&L 1-8 outside slip plan I have does have some chair detail

 

Standard chairs

Slide chairs (P)

Bridge Chairs (Exactoscale range)

Then using the slip pack for the central part (the slide chairs in the pack are P4 size which are smaller)

A couple of packs of common crossing chairs should be fine as you can use the spare chairs on the slip sprue on the outside slip rail where it passes the common crossings and perhaps the 1-10 common crossing chairs for the other common crossings

The 0.8 check rail chairs will also work.

 

To be quite honest I am quite envious of what you are doing, good luck though you seem to have everything under control, and I will look forward to the forthcoming posts of the build

[Michael Woolford]

 

To be quite honest I am quite envious of what you are doing, good luck though you seem to have everything under control, and I will look forward to the forthcoming posts of the build

John,

 

The template for just the outside slip is available here:

 

http://85a.co.uk/forum/view_topic.php?id=2369&forum_id=1#p15807

 

If you have the time and wish to, you could always have a go yourself.

 

Michael

[Michael Woolford]

I'm trying to work out which special chairs go where, mainly on the k-crossing to start with. Looking at the PDF file produced by Exactoscale, it shows the chairs required for a 1 in 5 diamond crossing. Are the chairs used the same as what is required for a 1 in 4.5 k-crossing, just with slightly different positioning? There is then the question of what to do with the common crossing arrangement. The D chair of the first crossing (1 in 4.5) and the 4PL/R chairs conflict. Do I therefore sacrifice the switch chairs in this position for a standard chair that will fit (L1 or M1)? However, I am unsure what to do because of the two common crossings that are together which creates a need for special chairs that I have no idea about. I have included a screenshot of the area so that it is easier to visualise. 

Thanks in advance,

 

Michael

[hayfield]

John,

 

The template for just the outside slip is available here:

 

http://85a.co.uk/forum/view_topic.php?id=2369&forum_id=1#p15807

 

If you have the time and wish to, you could always have a go yourself.

 

Michael

 

 

Michael

 

I have saved the plan and if I get time then perhaps I will have a go. I have built 3 or 4 in copperclad and they are quite fun

[hayfield]

I'm trying to work out which special chairs go where, mainly on the k-crossing to start with. Looking at the PDF file produced by Exactoscale, it shows the chairs required for a 1 in 5 diamond crossing. Are the chairs used the same as what is required for a 1 in 4.5 k-crossing, just with slightly different positioning? There is then the question of what to do with the common crossing arrangement. The D chair of the first crossing (1 in 4.5) and the 4PL/R chairs conflict. Do I therefore sacrifice the switch chairs in this position for a standard chair that will fit (L1 or M1)? However, I am unsure what to do because of the two common crossings that are together which creates a need for special chairs that I have no idea about. I have included a screenshot of the area so that it is easier to visualise. 

trackpad_screenshot_2014_07_29_0942_31.png

Thanks in advance,

 

Michael

 

 

Michael

 

I think it will be a bit hit and miss and do remember they are designed for P4 Exactoscale turnout kits

 

Firstly get the C&L plan, this clearly shows  where the slide, bridge and block chairs go. There is also (what you have) the diamond, slip and common crossing chair position drawings from C&L. So you have these sources of reference.

 

I am assuming you will make up 4 units to fit on the sleepers (the double common crossings at each end and both obtuse (K) crossings) which will be soldered together on either 0.5 mm copperclad strips or metal shim. Therefore the chairs will hold the units in place

 

The K crossing outside the slip will be as the Exactoscale chair position plan, the one between the slip rails looks to be the same except on sleepers CL 077.K3 and CR075 K3

 

I would keep to the plans as much as possible, however the slip side of sleepers CL077X5-B/A/X/Y will need a bit of lateral thinking to see what chairs could be used. Its easied to do/show rather than explain

[Michael Woolford]

John,

 

The chairs around the K-crossings should look as below, other than the single slip in my case which doesn't use the extra timber on the knuckle:

I am still trying to work out what to do about the dual common crossing, the chair used in a similar situation on a tandem is shown to be this:

I may have to use half of a crossing chair and a cut up slide chair.

 

Progress so far looks like this:

Now I know how I need to build the dual common crossing unit, I should be able to get it done much quicker and things should start to progress quite quickly now. I need to fettle one of the vees so that it lines up properly (solder bulge) but a bogie still runs through fairly untroubled as it is. I do need to find a way of getting the solder to go underneath when assembling the units so that there are no unsightly bits of solder on the web of the rail, although most is covered by wing rails etc.

 

I will take so more pictures tomorrow when I have more time, which will hopefully show a bit more progress. I'm hoping to get most of the other crossing assembly finished and the second stock rail of the diamond in place.

 

Michael

[martin_wynne]

Hi Michael,

 

I think that special chair marked SB is a bit unlikely, unless anyone knows otherwise? It is much more likely to be standard B chair with a separate bolted half-chair for the running rail. There is a picture of such an arrangement on the Scalefour web site here:

 

 http://www.scalefour.org/resources/trackdetail/chairs04.html

 

edit: On a second look that is not a standard B chair. It is a built-up slab-and-bracket chair with a through bolt (similar to an A chair), presumably because there is not enough room for a key jaw and key.

 

regards,

 

Martin.

[hayfield]

John,

 

The chairs around the K-crossings should look as below, other than the single slip in my case which doesn't use the extra timber on the knuckle:

1 in 5 Diamond.jpg

Single Slip.jpg

I am still trying to work out what to do about the dual common crossing, the chair used in a similar situation on a tandem is shown to be this:

Dual Crossing.jpg

I may have to use half of a crossing chair and a cut up slide chair.

 

Progress so far looks like this:

DSC_0031 copy.jpg

Now I know how I need to build the dual common crossing unit, I should be able to get it done much quicker and things should start to progress quite quickly now. I need to fettle one of the vees so that it lines up properly (solder bulge) but a bogie still runs through fairly untroubled as it is. I do need to find a way of getting the solder to go underneath when assembling the units so that there are no unsightly bits of solder on the web of the rail, although most is covered by wing rails etc.

 

I will take so more pictures tomorrow when I have more time, which will hopefully show a bit more progress. I'm hoping to get most of the other crossing assembly finished and the second stock rail of the diamond in place.

 

Michael

 

 

Michael, I use the .06 mm copperclad strips to solder the common crossing together, metal shim is just as good. I tin the rail bottoms where they are to be soldered and to fit the Vees I use plenty of liquid flux and a very small amount of solder. File flat the solder around the vees and tin the wing rails and solder them to the copperclad/shim. I then cut the pieces of copperclad/shim flush with the rail. Job done

 

Hi Michael,

 

I think that special chair marked SB is a bit unlikely, unless anyone knows otherwise? It is much more likely to be standard B chair with a separate bolted half-chair for the running rail. There is a picture of such an arrangement on the Scalefour web site here:

 

 http://www.scalefour.org/resources/trackdetail/chairs04.html

 

edit: On a second look that is not a standard B chair. It is a built-up slab-and-bracket chair with a through bolt (similar to an A chair), presumably because there is not enough room for a key jaw and key.

 

regards,

 

Martin.

 

 

Whether or not this is prototypically correct (though Len did seem to get these things right) I would use one of the spare centre parts of the block chair if a bridge chair would not fit next to the B chair, If it is the former then a good look at the spare chairs on the sprue to get the square on effect rather than the angled effect from the normsl crossing chairs.

Michael, its looking very prommissing