Michael Woolford Posted January 31, 2014 Author Share Posted January 31, 2014 Yesterday, I made a start on the turnout; I didn't get anywhere near as much time as I thought I had but I managed to do the preparation for construction. Timbers were cut and laid using double sided tape to hold them in place. The next step will be the fitting of the straight stock rail and the common crossing. I have already added all of the required full size chairs to the stock rail (smaller chairs and half chairs will be added later). I am now in Harlow doing night shifts for Thursday/Friday and Friday/Saturday (just finished for tonight), hence the time of my post; I hope to continue the construction when I get back home on Sunday. Michael Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Smith Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 Michael, When you start cementing the chairs in place, lay the rail and chars in place on the sleepers dry then flood the two end chair/sleeper joints with Butanone. Let this set for a few minutes then place a steel straight edge against the rail ensuring the rail is in contact and therefore straight. Flood the rest of the chair bases starting in the centre and holding the rail against the straight edge until set. This is the technique I used 25 years ago and the track is still perfect.......sorry if I'm teaching you to suck eggs but the technique is not necessarily obvious. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Izzy Posted January 31, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 31, 2014 Glad to see that you are using ply sleepers, much nicer and better in the long run. And easier to slide a scalpel blade between the chair and sleeper if you need to reposition.......... Might I add a few comments if that's okay? Just in case the points haven't been covered somewhere/you haven't seen them and your unaware. If they have, or you know, and I'm also teaching you to suck......apologies. The gauges you have are two types, roller, and three point. They are used differently. The roller makes track strictly to gauge, whether it is straight or curved, plain or turnout. You have two versions, one specifically for use with pointwork in setting checkrails, crossing noses etc - it's the one with the flat milled on it. The three point is also used make straight and curved track, plain stuff, but while it can be used either way around for straight, the single leg must always be on the inside of curved track. This is because it widens the gauge in proportion to the radius (the tighter the radius the greater the widening). If you use it the wrong way around, then gauge narrowing results..., which is to be avoided at all costs. In laying the point rail/chairs could I offer the suggestion you consider starting with the common crossing and work out? The reason being that as the template is only a guide, and can at times stretch in different directions, this prevents the chance that the rails will all sit offset to one side of the timbers rather than being central. I've had this at times, and while not the end of the world, it can be annoying. The order I use is: Crossing V. Stock rail. Stock blade/crossing wing. Second stock rail. Second blade/crossing wing. Check rails. cheers, Izzy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 Michael I was driving to work at that time !!. You have made a good start and pre-loading the rails of different sections is a good idea. One note is when threading the chairs on to the rail I try and keep them on the sprue whilst threading them on to the rail, as I find it is much easier this way. I will be looking with interest how the stain takes to the sleepers after the solvent has stuck the chair to it. I still have a solvent based stain (Colron Jacobian Oak) which I apply before cutting the sleepers to length. Also I have heard that stains are now water/acrylic based, again coverage will be of interest. Also when you lay the first rail section/common crossing, look from all angles to check its not making a lop sided turnout. I favour fitting the common crossing first, but equally the straight stock rail is also as good a place to start the build from Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Smith Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 Regarding colouring the track, I laid the ballast first then painted the rail and chairs with Humbrol solvent based paint, then thinned down the same colour (some sort of brown, maybe 'Track') and drenched the ballast and sleepers. My observation is that with old track everything is roughly the same colour..... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Mallard60022 Posted January 31, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 31, 2014 Michael I was driving to work at that time !!. You have made a good start and pre-loading the rails of different sections is a good idea. One note is when threading the chairs on to the rail I try and keep them on the sprue whilst threading them on to the rail, as I find it is much easier this way. I will be looking with interest how the stain takes to the sleepers after the solvent has stuck the chair to it. I still have a solvent based stain (Colron Jacobian Oak) which I apply before cutting the sleepers to length. Also I have heard that stains are now water/acrylic based, again coverage will be of interest. Also when you lay the first rail section/common crossing, look from all angles to check its not making a lop sided turnout. I favour fitting the common crossing first, but equally the straight stock rail is also as good a place to start the build from Norman Soloman uses a mirror to check his track build. Even on a single turnout he does it especially on the curved parts. I can't explain the science but it does help you see the 'flow' of the curve (no kinks to really get you.....sorry) P Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium t-b-g Posted January 31, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 31, 2014 Glad to see you taking the plunge! Can I put forward a little suggestion, which may or may not be too late. I always leave some chairs off the stock rail where the check rail is going to go. It makes it much easier to fit the check rail, which gets extra strength and ease of positioning if it has some full chairs on it. For a 5 chair check rail I would omit three chairs (middle & two ends) from the stock rail. The missing chairs are made up cosmetically by cutting half chairs and glueing them on afterwards, three on the outside and two inside the check rail. It is also worth trimming the bolt heads off the chairs where the check rails go as otherwise they may catch on the underneath of the adjacent rail. Finally, I trim the end of the base slightly (just enough to remove the really thin edge) on the chairs where the check rail goes. Otherwise, the base can protrude too much the other side of the rail and make fitting a cosmetic chair that bit trickier. As in all things, there are many ways to skin these cats but I find those methods work nicely. I look forward to seeing your progress. Tony Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Woolford Posted February 9, 2014 Author Share Posted February 9, 2014 Some more progress... Yesterday I had a package arrive with some exactoscale special chairs, why? Well, even after saying that I would use cosmetic half chairs this time, I became rather frustrated with chairs pinging across the room as they were cut, never to be seen again. So, as they will be used on the layout anyway, I decided to use them now. Today, I made a start with the crossing and stock rails. The common crossing fitted: Straight stock rail: Curved rail tacked in place: Switch chairs added on one side: The next step will be to trim and fit the first switch rail and a few additional switch chair parts. That will complete one side of the turnout, apart from the check rails. The other side can then be completed, before adding the check rails and tie bars etc. Michael Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Izzy Posted February 10, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 10, 2014 Might I make the suggestion that for future builds, since it is too late for this one, that you lay the straight stock rail closure rail/switch blade before laying the second stock rail. The reason is that it is best to lay it gauged throughout in relation to these, as well as the crossing and toe, to prevent the situation that can occur where the actual gauge at the blades is too narrow and difficulties are thus encountered, because the second stock rail was laid with nothing to actually gauge where it should sit in relation to the corresponding switch blade and closure rail. Izzy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Woolford Posted February 10, 2014 Author Share Posted February 10, 2014 I have only tacked it in place at either end with it being gauged from the toe end and from the crossing at the other. Michael Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThaneofFife Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 I think I will follow Michaels progress with his EM C&L turnout Last year I bought some basic EM bits and a B6 turnout kit but quickly threw in the towel and sold it all before i got in too deep. One bit of advice for Michael is that if you do go to EM then plan carefully as you could find that a track plan in 00 might have fitted nicely into your available space but the more prototypical EM track version of that same plan could become uncomfortably compromised as it is likely to need more room what with better looking longer flowing pointwork over the usual Peco streamline. What put me off was the apparent waiting times for EM diesel wheelsets - I had heard rumours such as 6 months for Heljan bo-bo's etc. I was nervous about making the switch but then having to wait 6 or 12 months or longer for the next batch of wheelsets to get some models converted. Think that was Alan Gibsons? Also I was'nt a fan of having to shave off material on all my Bachmann coach bogies (inside) to allow for the B2Bs to be opened up. one other thing that put me off was that some Bachmann coaches have split insulated axles for DCC lighting and so I wasnt clued up on how one "converts" these and niether did I find any advice on this from the EMGS I joined for a year. Even more so when Bachmann announced the Mk2f AirCon coaches which I have on order with DCC lighting and didnt really want to face the aforementioned shaving off of bogie material and/or acquiring new insulated wheelsets for them as the coaches were £36 a pop as it was so adding more expense with new wheelsets wasnt really on. It gets even more tricky if live axles are running in brass bushes inside the bogies - how do you tackle those! Seems some coaches could be harder to convert than diesel locos! I would revisit EM if somebody had some words of advice on the above - it might just be enough to get me to buy another tunrout in a bag kit ! One last thing - these C&L turnout kits are superb but are for straight junctions. What happens if you need a slightly curved turnout or do C&L make these too? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Bigbee Line Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 An interesting topic. I was tempted towards EM in the early 90's, to the extent of converting and detailing 100+ wagons and numerous NPCCS vehicles. Lack of a decent running UK outline suitable loco put me off. I veered of to US outline HO, had a dabble in US N and then back to HO. Retirement has brought a diversion (reversion maybe) to UK 4mm, mainly as there is some good stuff out there. Any guesses on the track shown below: I'm not trying to be clever, just to show that "size isn't everything". Don't think too hard, what is your first guess? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Siberian Snooper Posted February 10, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 10, 2014 One last thing - these C&L turnout kits are superb but are for straight junctions. What happens if you need a slightly curved turnout or do C&L make these too? You download and learn how to use Templot, this is a free program for anyone who wishes to build prototypical switches and crossings. IT IS a steep learning curve, a lot struggle and give up. If you persevere with the tutorials the penny will eventually drop. It took me several months to get my head around it, practising an hour or so at a time. Do not try and build a prototypical station layout to begin with learn the basics, Rome wasn't built in a day. SS Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThaneofFife Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 5ft 6" gauge ala Indian Railways? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Siberian Snooper Posted February 10, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 10, 2014 5ft 6" gauge ala Indian Railways? Any mix of scale and gauge you like, so long as you have the prototypical dimensions for the geometry of the S & C. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 Might I make the suggestion that for future builds, since it is too late for this one, that you lay the straight stock rail closure rail/switch blade before laying the second stock rail. The reason is that it is best to lay it gauged throughout in relation to these, as well as the crossing and toe, to prevent the situation that can occur where the actual gauge at the blades is too narrow and difficulties are thus encountered, because the second stock rail was laid with nothing to actually gauge where it should sit in relation to the corresponding switch blade and closure rail. Izzy Michael I have found a way which keeps the half chairs in place whilst cutting them. I now use a cutting mat, I have 3 scalpels, one with a curved blade and 2 different straight blades. Now put the blade in the gap in the chair where the rail goes, if right handed put one of you fingers over the top of the blade and gently push your finger over the chair. Now gently push the blade through the chair, as you have been pressing down on the chair the 2 halves are either sitting on the mat or stuck to your finger. To pick a half chair up just use the fine point of the scalpel blade Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Siberian Snooper Posted February 10, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 10, 2014 ThaneofFife Your mention of Indian railways 5ft 6 inch gauge, was imediatly after my reply about Templot, so I thought you were enquiring as to whether or not 5ft 6ins track could be produced or not. It can even at fullsize if you have the room to build it. SS Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThaneofFife Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 Arh.no.i was answering the bigbee lines question...... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Bigbee Line Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 An interesting topic. I was tempted towards EM in the early 90's, to the extent of converting and detailing 100+ wagons and numerous NPCCS vehicles. Lack of a decent running UK outline suitable loco put me off. I veered of to US outline HO, had a dabble in US N and then back to HO. Retirement has brought a diversion (reversion maybe) to UK 4mm, mainly as there is some good stuff out there. Any guesses on the track shown below: I'm not trying to be clever, just to show that "size isn't everything". Don't think too hard, what is your first guess? Code 55 FB into Peco Code 75 sleeper base. Here shown against Roco code 83 I'm sticking to 16.5mm to avoid a gauge war. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Woolford Posted May 10, 2014 Author Share Posted May 10, 2014 I have been making quite a lot of progress in the past month or so with drawing up the plan on Templot. I have a revised layout plan based on some comments from a couple of members on the forum. The revised plan is more structured around the plan of Birkenhead Woodside than it was before, and also now includes two long head shunts/carriage sidings instead of the single head shunt previously. There may also be the need for one additional crossover, but it will not effect the rest of the plan, so I will leave it out for now. Here is the revised plan: Here are some screen shots showing the developments in Templot: Today I printed what I have done so far so that I could get an idea for the size, curvature and flow of the layout etc. I have also taken some photos of the printed plan to give a different perspective. There is one thing that I forgot to consider when creating the plan which is the position of the signal box. The signal box will be of a LNWR design. I know from the book 'A Pictorial Record of L.N.W.R. SIGNALLING' that: "Size codes A and B were for the 6' x 6' and 9' x 9' standard cabins. The width of all standard cabins in size codes C to U was 12 feet." Therefore, I am going to have to find a suitable position for the signal box to go, which hopefully, will not mean that too much alteration has to be made to the plan, to allow it to fit with space for the rodding. Just from looking at the plan, I know that there will need to be around 20 FPLs, at least 20+ signals in the station area (16 on the platforms, 2 for the trap points on the platform sidings and 2 for the trap point by the turntable, plus any other ground signals and control of the back roads along with the possibility of the signal gantry on the station approach). When you add them together there are over 40 levers, excluding the switches. This probably means that I will need a size N, O, or P box (see below): LNWR Standard Signal Cabins.xlsx There is an amount of re-design that needs to be done as some of the S&C needs moving back to accommodate platform 1 and 2. This involves some geometry changes, as the single slip can't be on a transition, which there is where it now needs to be. I am hoping that by the end of the month, the plan will be finished, and that in the summer, I can actually make a start on some trackwork for the layout. Michael Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted May 10, 2014 Share Posted May 10, 2014 Michael Very impressive, to save me going back through the thread please remind me what type of track construction you will be using. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Woolford Posted May 10, 2014 Author Share Posted May 10, 2014 Michael Very impressive, to save me going back through the thread please remind me what type of track construction you will be using. Hi John, I will be building the S&C using ply timbers and plastic chairs, which will include the Exactoscale special chairs. The check rail chairs will have to be cut in half to fit, one side will have to be cosmetic, which I will alternate. I would like to build all of the track, but to construct the plain track will probably take far too long, so I will probably opt for some C&L flexi track. If you go to the top of this page (posts 76, 77 and 84) there are some pictures of part of the build process for a B6 turnout. Michael Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted May 10, 2014 Share Posted May 10, 2014 Michael I had a quick look at that earlier, its so uneconomic to build the plain track as it just eats up the chairs, might be worth doing it on very exposed areas which may come under close scrutiny. Its just that C&L have changed their sleeper/timber supplier and have a choice of both 0.8 mm & 1.6 mm thick timbers. Have been using the latter recently as I prefer the thicker Exactoscale fast track bases. I have left a message for Peter regarding the availability of the 0.8 mm check rail chairs and waiting for a reply, however I think C&L are at an 0 gauge show this weekend. I do prefer fitting these chairs in 2 parts as they are far easier to fit this way, may have to fall back on to the P4 ones in the short term. Looking forward to your progress on this build as the trackwork flows nicely. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold martin_wynne Posted May 10, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 10, 2014 This involves some geometry changes, as the single slip can't be on a transition, which there is where it now needs to be. Hi Michael, Prototypically a slip in a transition curve would be unusual to say the least. But Templot will happily let you do that if it's necessary to fit the available space. Martin. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Woolford Posted May 10, 2014 Author Share Posted May 10, 2014 Michael I had a quick look at that earlier, its so uneconomic to build the plain track as it just eats up the chairs, might be worth doing it on very exposed areas which may come under close scrutiny. Its just that C&L have changed their sleeper/timber supplier and have a choice of both 0.8 mm & 1.6 mm thick timbers. Have been using the latter recently as I prefer the thicker Exactoscale fast track bases. I have left a message for Peter regarding the availability of the 0.8 mm check rail chairs and waiting for a reply, however I think C&L are at an 0 gauge show this weekend. I do prefer fitting these chairs in 2 parts as they are far easier to fit this way, may have to fall back on to the P4 ones in the short term. Looking forward to your progress on this build as the trackwork flows nicely. John, I have just had a quick look at the design and estimate that there would be some 5000+ chairs for the plain track . That's not really something I fancy committing to. I can't remember the thickness of the flexible track, so I will have to have a look; just so that I use the same thickness on the S&C. Thankfully, there is not too much trackwork that is complex. There are only two single slips, along with the outside single slip to worry about at the moment. In regards to the to check rail chairs, I have a pack of P4 ones that can be cut down, and will probably use these since the others are not available. Michael Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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