Serious7 Posted April 3, 2013 Share Posted April 3, 2013 Two queries: 1 - The postings I've made in RMWEB so far are running as a stream under the heading I gave my 1st one, but I want to sort the streams with different headings. So, where in here are the tools to shunt my photos/texts and change headlines? 2 - I am building the smallest of my 3 mockups, called SLEEPY COVE. The focus of this is an aged and rather converted 3-masted schooner working as a tramp steamer; I'm adapting a REVELL 1:150 kit of ALEXANDER von HUMBOLDT. The kit came with rigid green plastic sails 'in the wind', as if well out to sea..... Naturally since my ship will be tied-up and busy off-loading tanktainers by giant forklift (yes, honestly) I need to fit sails 'stowed'. My notion is that the ship came in with the rising tide and plans to slip away again ASAP, meaning the sails have only been lowered - but what does that look like? Also, I am butchering the REVELL kit to sort of copy the surgery in the photos below, showing an oceangoing trawler adjusted (a lot) to carry containers..... I'm no sailor, so all I'm copying is the look. Anyone with advice, feel free to chip in........ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
billbedford Posted April 4, 2013 Share Posted April 4, 2013 The sail was there to steady the boat while fishing. I would very much doubt that it would have been rigged after conversion. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Y Posted April 4, 2013 Share Posted April 4, 2013 Lovely stuff Serious; for such content I'd suggest starting a topic in this area - http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/forum/30-scenery-structures-transport/ - images have to be uploaded to the relevant topic or you could create a gallery for yourself. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Wintle Posted April 4, 2013 Share Posted April 4, 2013 If it truly is a schooner working as a tramp steamer (i.e. motorized), they likely wouldn't have any sails rigged. Schooners were typically gaff-rigged (so wouldn't have yards and square sails like the Alexander von Humboldt*), so the jib and staysails (the triangular ones at the bow) would be taken off completely, while the mainsails would be furled/flaked between the boom and the lowered gaff. Take a look at the photo here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bluenose_II A square rigger like the kit would be a different beast. Again the jib and staysails would be talen off completely and stored below (or potentially rolled up on deck) - the lines (stays/shrouds) would remain, but the square sails would be triced to the yards (pulled up and tied to them, sort of like a bundle hanging from each yard). See the photo here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Square_rig. If they were staying longer they would bring the sails down. *a topsail schooner would have square sails higher on the foremast. Adrian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThePipersSon Posted April 4, 2013 Share Posted April 4, 2013 Remember that the sails are the engine that powers the ship. For a sailing ship to be moored, with the sails out, would be like a propeller-driven ship sitting tied to the quay-side with the propeller turing. For a sailing ship rigged fore-and-aft, like the Bluenose above, even if it was moored pointing directly into wind, it is unlikely. For the sails to be passive, the sheet (rope controlling the sail) would have to be loose. Thie flapping sail would be noisy, and the boom (the spar at the bottom of the sail) would be moving around dangerously. Also, the flapping would damage the sail. For a square-rigger, whichever way the wind was. the sails would be powered-up. I know this is generalisation, and someone will prove me wrong by showing a thames barge, or something similar, tied up with the sail up. The fishing boat is a drifter, which would set the sail after deploying the nets to steady the boat, while it waits before pulling them in again. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Wintle Posted April 4, 2013 Share Posted April 4, 2013 Remember that the sails are the engine that powers the ship. For a sailing ship to be moored, with the sails out, would be like a propeller-driven ship sitting tied to the quay-side with the propeller turing. From the OP "Naturally since my ship will be tied-up ... I need to fit sails 'stowed'." so he knows they wouldn't be up at dock. Note that the model he is starting from for the 'schooner' isn't the trawler pictured above, it is http://www.revell.com/germany/ships/80-5400.html Adrian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Serious7 Posted April 4, 2013 Author Share Posted April 4, 2013 Lovely stuff Serious; for such content I'd suggest starting a topic in this area - http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/forum/30-scenery-structures-transport/ - images have to be uploaded to the relevant topic or you could create a gallery for yourself. Can't do that today - lack the time! However, given the detail in the replies already I guess I should 'start a topic' as you say. It is already very clear I have a lot to learn in this tiny bit of the project - apparently the boat kit which I have already bought isn't even a schooner, but I'm still going to convert it...... It is likely to become a debated matter as I tender my plans for the ship. I'm sure quite a few plans will get sunk. I hardly dare to tell a soul my pre-construction perspective has the 'schooner' cheekily and very wrongly tied up OUTSIDE a Clyde Puffer, and they are breaking all sorts of H&S rules by off-loading the tanktainers over the puffer using a belt harness on a giant forkilft, all borrowed from a farmer. The wee pier is on a remote island - basically Barra in the Outer Hebrides - where H&S normally wilts before the islanders WHISKY GALORE spirit. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Serious7 Posted April 4, 2013 Author Share Posted April 4, 2013 If it truly is a schooner working as a tramp steamer (i.e. motorized), they likely wouldn't have any sails rigged. Schooners were typically gaff-rigged (so wouldn't have yards and square sails like the Alexander von Humboldt*), so the jib and staysails (the triangular ones at the bow) would be taken off completely, while the mainsails would be furled/flaked between the boom and the lowered gaff. Take a look at the photo here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bluenose_II A square rigger like the kit would be a different beast. Again the jib and staysails would be talen off completely and stored below (or potentially rolled up on deck) - the lines (stays/shrouds) would remain, but the square sails would be triced to the yards (pulled up and tied to them, sort of like a bundle hanging from each yard). See the photo here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Square_rig. If they were staying longer they would bring the sails down. *a topsail schooner would have square sails higher on the foremast. Adrian Oh help - this is very precisely the sort of help I need, but already it's picking me up for blunders galore! I've printed the text and the images referred to and am away to study....... That said, the CAROL conversion in the photos I posted above was merely 'indicative' of containers aboard a wee coaster. I had no idea the model I've bought was no schooner, but that won't stop me - I'll butcher it whatever the problems. It will become a sort of eco-warrior coaster, screw-driven in port but reverting to sails when far enough offshore in suitable weather. Right now all I know about the rigid green sails supplied with the kit is that if someone else has a use for them, they will be available in mint condition not even cut from the sprue. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
billbedford Posted April 4, 2013 Share Posted April 4, 2013 Perhaps you should have started by telling us what scale your railways is and what period it is set in. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Serious7 Posted April 5, 2013 Author Share Posted April 5, 2013 Perhaps you should have started by telling us what scale your railways is and what period it is set in. Fair point. The track etc is just ordinary N gauge - I figure this tiny layout (under 2' square) is my 'O' level in actually building, after decades of Observing or Operating. As you soon realise, Building is almost unrelated to Observing & Operating; it reminds me of the classic divide between the motorcycle mechanic and the motorcycle rider in ZEN & THE ART OF MOTORCYCLE MAINTENANCE. That said, the period is a Lulu - my layout is set in the year 2053. How does that work? Well, I'm imagining some sort of 'Global Warming' style catastrophe (most likely caused by an event which hadn't been predicted) - has obliged people to step back technologically, especially on remote islands. And the pier in my layout is on such an island - essentially part of the Outer Hebrides off Scotland. Nowadays the weather is always warmer. Petrol is so rare it's only available for public transport, agriculture etc. This means preserved locos & stock is no longer in museums for dusting - it's back in service, until manufacturing can begin to make replacements. Everything is for the moment a matter of making-do with what can be found. That's why a converted barque is delivering tanktainers to the island, and it's why the barque favours sail over diesel. It's a fantasy but then whose layout isn't? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jonte Posted April 5, 2013 Share Posted April 5, 2013 Hi Serious7 And welcome to RMWeb. Don't know if this is useful http://www.francisfrith.com/aberdovey/photos/from-pier-1901_46973/ but as you can see it's from an old B&W shot of the quay at Aberdovey (which from memory was served by the GWR) and shows a couple of square riggers, one of which (the rear of the two vessels) is shown with its stay sails flying, even though it's clearly still moored and not underway. Perhaps it's about to weigh anchor and leave on the incoming tied; then again, perhaps it's just arrived? You may just be able to glimpse the main sail furled around the boom with sail ties, as Adrian says. Just thought this might be a viable excuse to use some of the set sails provided in the kit, and with what you have in mind, it shows there's a prototype for everything!! Incidentally, both vessels show the top sails furled around the yard arms. I trust the technical terms are correct: I'm a contemporary sailor used to Bermudan rigged vessels although I once owned a Wharram Tiki catamaran which was gaff rigged (dead easy to rig). However, if required, I've a Maurice Griffiths book from the fifties somewhere upstairs, containing a glossary for most types of vessels, including historic ones. Hope this helps, Jonte Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Wintle Posted April 5, 2013 Share Posted April 5, 2013 Hi Serious7 And welcome to RMWeb. Don't know if this is useful http://www.francisfrith.com/aberdovey/photos/from-pier-1901_46973/ but as you can see it's from an old B&W shot of the quay at Aberdovey (which from memory was served by the GWR) and shows a couple of square riggers, one of which (the rear of the two vessels) is shown with its stay sails flying, even though it's clearly still moored and not underway. Perhaps it's about to weigh anchor and leave on the incoming tied; then again, perhaps it's just arrived? You may just be able to glimpse the main sail furled around the boom with sail ties, as Adrian says. Just thought this might be a viable excuse to use some of the set sails provided in the kit, and with what you have in mind, it shows there's a prototype for everything!! Incidentally, both vessels show the top sails furled around the yard arms. I trust the technical terms are correct: I'm a contemporary sailor used to Bermudan rigged vessels although I once owned a Wharram Tiki catamaran which was gaff rigged (dead easy to rig). However, if required, I've a Maurice Griffiths book from the fifties somewhere upstairs, containing a glossary for most types of vessels, including historic ones. Hope this helps, Jonte Yard is the term for the full width spar (non-technically a yard is the crosswise pole from which a sail is hung or which the bottom of the sail attaches to) - yardarm I think refers to one side of a yard (and particularly the outer end). The sails in the photo look like they have hung them to dry. Those look like topsail schooners - gaff rigged on both masts but with a topsail on the foremast. I like the layout premise - it is certainly something different. Adrian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Serious7 Posted April 5, 2013 Author Share Posted April 5, 2013 Yard is the term for the full width spar (non-technically a yard is the crosswise pole from which a sail is hung or which the bottom of the sail attaches to) - yardarm I think refers to one side of a yard (and particularly the outer end). The sails in the photo look like they have hung them to dry. Those look like topsail schooners - gaff rigged on both masts but with a topsail on the foremast. I like the layout premise - it is certainly something different. Adrian I will learn as little as necessary to pull off the conversion but even that will be quite a bit..... I found a list for the ropes on the ship I'm butchering and it lists a daunting 169 different ones, each going from a very specific somewhere to an equally specific elsewhere. Suddenly I see why the phrase LEARNING THE ROPES became the important phrase...... That said, I plan to model the vessel with all sails 'tied down', none in the wind - though the crew's laundry could be. I think the crew will be all-male. Bras are quite tricky enough already without becoming on a wire at 1:150. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium 45156 Posted April 7, 2013 RMweb Premium Share Posted April 7, 2013 Hi there and welcome aboard - you're already finding out what a helpful bunch we are on here. Regards Stewart Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Serious7 Posted April 9, 2013 Author Share Posted April 9, 2013 Hi there and welcome aboard - you're already finding out what a helpful bunch we are on here. Regards Stewart Few will need as much help as I shall. You will be leant upon. And, hopefully, the photos of the built deeds will make those underpinning the work feel their efforts did pay off. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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