ntstacey Posted October 16, 2013 Share Posted October 16, 2013 I'm starting my first layout and want to use DCC for as much as I can. Having decided to use slow action motors I wanted to experiment between Tortoise and Cobalt Digital motors before deciding which one to use for the full layout. The Cobalt is very simple to wire but I've found the connections unreliable, suddenly the motor won't work or works very very slowly and then it works OK. The Tortoise seems more reliable but requires soldering and an accessory decoder, I've used the Cobalt which uses a, what seems to be a more reliable, screw connection for the wires. My preference from a cost and convenience point is to use Cobalt Digital but wanted to understand what experience modellers had had with Cobalt and Tortoise. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzie Posted October 16, 2013 Share Posted October 16, 2013 The Tortoise is a lower current device so connection problems might not be so critical, and the Tortoise can be plugged onto with an edge connector, there are even decoders available that plug straight on - you do not have to solder. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold RedgateModels Posted October 16, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 16, 2013 There is also the Traintronics TT300 to consider, low profile, built in DCC decoder, also works on DC and you can have a "toggle throw" button on a control panel too on DCC if you so desire. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold RFS Posted October 16, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 16, 2013 I switched from Peco to Tortoise just over 2 years ago, replacing all 65 motors in a phased manner. I'm using DCC with RR&Co Traincontroller so I needed DCC-controlled turnouts which were as close to 100% reliable as I could get. The Peco were good but not good enough for reliable automation. I chose Tortoise with the NCE Switch-8 accessory decoder and have never regretted that decision. The only slight issue I've had is with a couple of wires coming off the Tortoise but this was entirely due to my not having soldered them properly. I've since gone round and double-checked all were secure, and now I have no problems at all. I solder short wires on to the Tortoise solder pads on the workbench, and connect to a choc-bloc so wiring up below the baseboard is a simple screw connection. With RR&Co automation, operation can be intense and it's imperative that turnouts change when requested: otherwise shorts, heavy shunts etc become a real problem. (If you're operating manually, you can usually tell when a turnout hasn't switched properly, but the computer is oblivious and carries on regardless!). I did look at Cobalts at the time, but they were around £5 more expensive, plus there were question marks over DCC operation with the only options (NCE Switch-8 and Lenz LS150) having proved problematical in some environments. (AD1/AD4 and Cobalt Digitals weren't announced at this time). There have been a number of threads on this and other forums regarding reliability of the Cobalts and I'm very glad I used Tortoises: these have a reputation for reliability going back many years as does the NCE Switch-8 (my instructions are dated 2006). You can run two turnouts forming a crossover from one Switch-8 port with no problem too, so that reduces the number of ports you need. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Focalplane Posted May 13, 2014 Share Posted May 13, 2014 My experience with Tortoise comes from living in North America and there is no doubt that the long history and widespread use of the Tortoise have much to commend it. Not that I don't think competition is good! I suggest you try out both before committing to one or the other. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cromptonnut Posted May 13, 2014 Share Posted May 13, 2014 I use Minx Microdrives, and they have a DCC version coming out next month. http://minxmicrodrives.com/development-blog/ - scroll down a bit to the 25th April entry. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Reichert Posted May 13, 2014 Share Posted May 13, 2014 Don't forget the "Mole" if you are in the US. Andy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Posted May 13, 2014 Share Posted May 13, 2014 what seems to be a more reliable, screw connection for the wires. :no: soldering is far more reliable than screw connection - but if you cannot solder or intend to keep dismantling the connection (why?) then screw connections will win. I am a Tortoise follower (probably always will be, just that I have never had an issue with them and have so many (enough) for all my layouts built/recovered/to be built. Nothing against Cobalts - just not found the need to "risk" anything different. I'm sure they do the job very respectably or we would have heard otherwise. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold RFS Posted January 2, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 2, 2015 Found this by chance recently. It's Circuitron's opinion on the Cobalt vs. Tortoise and makes interesting reading! http://www.circuitron.com/index_files/Page697.htm I'm a committed Tortoise user with 70 motors on my layout and never a single failure. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Focalplane Posted January 3, 2015 Share Posted January 3, 2015 Found this by chance recently. It's Circuitron's opinion on the Cobalt vs. Tortoise and makes interesting reading! http://www.circuitron.com/index_files/Page697.htm I'm a committed Tortoise user with 70 motors on my layout and never a single failure. Most interesting - I have to wonder what the Tortoise patent actually covers and how much protection it affords Circuitron. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Reichert Posted January 3, 2015 Share Posted January 3, 2015 Well they can't say that the MOLE is a copy! And it definitely occupies far less depth. And almost none if you use the included mount it into the baseboard surface option. Andy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandra Posted January 3, 2015 Share Posted January 3, 2015 I have about 40 Tortoises on my layout and 7 Cobalt motors. The only trouble with the Tortoise motors has been one on which the polarity switch failed. The motor was about 15 years old at the time and the problem was solved by changing to the other polarity switch. However, of the seven Cobalt motors one has failed completely and another has developed a loud click when going over whIch means that it will have to be replaced. As you can imagine I am not very impressed by the Cobalt motors and will not be buying any more. They are also rather more difficult to install as they cannot be turned over manually. I originally bought the Cobalt motors because they were to be fitted in a location with limited clearance below and I think that this is probably the only reason for using them over the Tortoise. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Trofimow Posted January 4, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 4, 2015 I recently took the decision to replace all my solenoid point motors with slow action types. Like RFS in post 4, I am also using Railroad & co computer control, so reliability is essential, and I have locations that are tight for clearance to fit a motor. There are a lot to replace and it will be a substantial investment that I can't afford to get wrong, so I bought samples of several makes to evaluate before deciding which to standardise on. Unfortunately the Cobalt did not impress on test with the polarity switches not working correctly out of the box amongst other things. I am not persuaded that they would suit my requirements and will not be buying any more. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoingUnderground Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 There are also reports of problems with Cobalts if the DCC voltage is more than 14V as the Cobalt apparently are designed tor around 9V, a ridiculously low voltage IMHO. This can be a problem with some non-US makes of DCC kit where the track voltage is 16-18V, which is still well below the NMRA maximum voltage for decoders. Some US based retailers have been supplying Cobalts with resistors to drop the voltage and instructions on how to fit them. I use model aircraft micro servos and ESU's Switchpilot Servo which I have found to be a very cost effective way to get gentle slow motion switching. You do need to arrange polarity switching for the frog separately if you have live frog pointwork. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzie Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 I use model aircraft micro servos and ESU's Switchpilot Servo which I have found to be a very cost effective way to get gentle slow motion switching. You do need to arrange polarity switching for the frog separately if you have live frog pointwork. ESU make the add on relay board for the switchpilot so it is not hard to arrange the frog switching, and there are servo decoders on the market that have frog switching built in like the Signalist SC2. While servos are neither Cobolt or Tortoise, they are cheaper, smaller and easier to install than either of them when you are going DCC. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold PhilH Posted January 4, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 4, 2015 Another reliable, low cost option would seem to be servos using Arduino, um, thingies to control them. I don't know the first thing about them except that eldavo has installed them on Waton and from day one it seems to have been a reliable way of doing things. Type Arduino into the search facility, there are a few threads describing this way of doing things. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoingUnderground Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 ESU make the add on relay board for the switchpilot so it is not hard to arrange the frog switching, and there are servo decoders on the market that have frog switching built in like the Signalist SC2. While servos are neither Cobolt or Tortoise, they are cheaper, smaller and easier to install than either of them when you are going DCC. You mean the ESU SwitchPilot Extension. If all that you want is to switch the polarity to the frog it is overkill when a simple lever switch will do the same for less money. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Johnson Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 *** Hi I wrote the attachment here way back in 2013 but apart from sending it to a couple of users who asked, actually couldn't be bothered using it elsewhere at the time... T pulled the document from their website after only a few days anyway. For the sake of clarity though, here it is. Tortoise FAQ Cobalt and Tortoise.pdf ALSO For those who do NOT know, Cobalt has been totally refreshed and re-tooled. Same on the outside excpet for PCB changes, it is 100% new on the inside. It has been significantly re-designed inside, mostly based on a lot of learning about customer usage and the general lack of understanding about power supplies and reading instructions / the importance of correct voltage. (That was not all customers fault either, how can they win when outputs on supposedly high-quality DC controllers that are labelled "12v uncontrolled" regularly deliver 17v +, and EU makers of DCC just ignore the NMRA track voltage standards. (Annoying to us of course - we would after all be yelled at by you i no uncertain terms if WE mis-labelled as badly as that) So... website for more... http://www.dccconcepts.com/catalogue/cobalt but... to summaise some of it The replacement for Cobalt classic (the Cobalt omega) has a two-voltage range option switch and is now quite comfortable to below 9v and up to a little above 18v+, and both the iP Analog and iP digital have intelligently managed power control and are more than happy up to 23v or more, therefore covering even the excessive voltage use as is common in large scale and most EU made digital. Try THAT with a T.... We have even made it possible to automatically self-centre the iP digital, added a THIRD switch to both the Cobalt analog models and ALL cobalt now come centred ready to install. The new versions are really special actually - and my favourite change is the fact that they are WAY quieter than their predecessors and much, much quieter than T. And - of course, there is STILL no need to solder with Cobalt.... Our connectors are all solder-free. LEDS can BTW be in series with a wire to the Cobalt Omega (same as T), but should be across the wires for iP Analog... but so what? In series is not a great way to do it anyway! ----------------------------- If you want to understand just how much more sophisticated the current generation Cobalt iP motors (analog or digital) are than T's product, I invite you to open one up. Unlike T I do not invalidate warranty for those who do that, because we are really proud of them. Do it carefully though, there are LOTS of gears in there! ----------------------------- Incidentally: 9V was never an unrealistic spec, and its not as if we didn't put it clearly in manuals and scream it from the roof-tops a thousand times!... (It is, anyway, actually also the best voltage to drive T on for quietness! I know because I used them for years). And - WHY shouldn't we have the right to expect people to read instructions? In the end we both modded internals to cope better with excess and looked after all those that had problems because they couldn't (be bothered to) read anyway, so even those who did not technically deserve warranty backup still got it. How many other manufacturers would still extend warranty to those who actually misused product? The real question to us was always, why are modellers still using 12v+ for things post Y2K???? Richard DCCconcepts Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoingUnderground Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 The NMRA have never defined a standard for the track voltage for DCC. The NMRA define minimum and maximum output voltages for controllers of 7 and 22 volts respectively, i.e. a voltage range. They also laid down maximum voltages that decoders must be able to withstand without damage, of 24 volts for decoders intended for N gauge, and 27 volts for all gauges larger than N. The graphs included in Standard S9.1, part C that show these voltages also include typical.(TYP) output voltages from DCC controllers intended for N, OO/H0, and also larger scales. US manufacturers' controllers tend to use output voltages lower than these typical values, but the European manufacturers tend to use higher voltages. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Reichert Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 *** Hi SNIP ALSO For those who do NOT know, Cobalt has been totally refreshed and re-tooled. Same on the outside excpet for PCB changes, it is 100% new on the inside. It has been significantly re-designed inside, mostly based on a lot of learning about customer usage and the general lack of understanding about power supplies and reading instructions / the importance of correct voltage. SNIP It's the originator's responsibility to do proper design, full testing against the expected operating environment, and incorporate any necessary revisions, before releasing a product for sale and expecting to keep the customers' money. Andy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
two tone green Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 I have ordered some Cobalt omega to see what they are like. As I already use the Cobalt classic it will be interesting to see how they compare against what Richard says about them. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold traction Posted January 5, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 5, 2015 It's the originator's responsibility to do proper design, full testing against the expected operating environment, and incorporate any necessary revisions, before releasing a product for sale and expecting to keep the customers' money. Andy If some of the threads on here are read about the many faults and inaccuracies with some of the releases we wouldn't have many locos then if that was followed to the letter Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Storey Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 Has anyone compared these to the Fulgurex types, which seem to be cheaper than both? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Reichert Posted January 6, 2015 Share Posted January 6, 2015 If some of the threads on here are read about the many faults and inaccuracies with some of the releases we wouldn't have many locos then if that was followed to the letter But this thread is about a simple, single motor plus gear train product, to be made in large quantities and having decade(s) long reliability, and which is mission critical to the complete operation of a model railway. A large percentage of the complaints with model locos are moulded body cosmetics with reference to their prototype accuracy, together with various assembly problems with wheel quartering and model specific near scale coupling rods and and valve gear. Along with perhaps splitting of randomly heavily loaded worm drive gears. And one dead loco won't stop the rest of the layout working, not require a strenuous digging out for under the baseboard for repair. Horses for courses. Andy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
two tone green Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 Unfortunately the supplier has sent me a box of Cobalt classic, the original version. I have just called them to tell them to be told they don't have any of the omega version as they cannot get them but clearly on their web site they are advertising them. Very disappointed. I now have to package them back up and get them sent back. Not happy. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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