EM/P4 forum

[truffy]

First off, apologies if this has been 'done to death' or this isn't the right place to post this topic, but I couldn't help noticing that there's no forum dedicated to EM/P4 on RMW. There are a myriad of other scales represented (2mm, 3mm, 7mm, O, S, T), but nothing that I can see for 4mm variants.

 

It's impossible to search the forum on 'EM' or 'P4', but in a couple of threads that I have come across, a neophyte question is sometimes met with a "this subject had been done to death" response. Which is all very well and good if you know where the bodies are buried, but of precious little help otherwise.

 

So would it be possible to have a forum for these specialities, where the previously received wisdom could be kept together in one repository? It could even have a 'been there, done that' sticky to save asking dumb questions...and I have some dumb questions to ask! I realise that joining the EM and/or Scale4 societies would be the ideal route in the long term (and in the event that I take this route that is what I will do), but a forum to share knowledge here would be a help.

 

Or perhaps I should just search on 'done to death'!

[martin_wynne]

Hi Truffy,

 

I agree that the search restriction on words of fewer than 4 characters is extremely inconvenient on RMweb. It is understandable for ordinary words to avoid overloading the server, but words of more than one character which are in all upper case or containing numerics should be excepted from the restriction. In the meantime you can make some progress by searching for a phrase such as "EM gauge" (including the quotation marks) or for EMGS. You will find the same members frequently contributing to the discussions, and you can search their posts using the advanced search function at: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?app=core&module=search&search_in=forums

 

The Scalefour Society's web forum at http://www.scalefour.org/forum/ can be read and searched by non-members (apart from the sections dealing with membership matters) and contains a lot of modelling info equally applicable to EM (and 00). Non-members can post questions in the Guest Book area of the forum.

 

regards,

 

Martin.   

[martin_wynne]

Hi again Truffy,

 

An alternative approach is to use Google directly (i.e. at google.co.uk, not via RMweb). Enter this:  EM P4 site:rmweb.co.uk

 

This will produce about 5,000 results from both old and new versions of RMweb, in a seemingly random order, but makes a useful starting point in finding the relevant discussions.

 

It would be great if Google had an option to return forum search results in date order, but unfortunately it doesn't -- unless anyone knows otherwise?

 

regards,

 

Martin.

[chrisf]

That's a useful search tip.  Thank you, Martin.  Would the search facility with which RMweb is blessed work better if those entering tags for their posts put a word such as "gauge" or "scale" after the offending two-character acronyms?

 

I'm not sure that I go along with the idea of a separate area on RMweb for those who work, or try to work, in EM and P4.  We get accused of elitism often enough, thanks!

 

Chris

[Kenton]

 

no forum dedicated to EM/P4 on RMW. There are a myriad of other scales represented (2mm, 3mm, 7mm, O, S, T), but nothing that I can see for 4mm variants.

Definitely done to death

 

but I'd like to point out to you that EM/P4 is not a "scale" but a "gauge" so once again we have the pro and anti debate confusion.

 

EM/P4 is well represented on RMWeb along with the other 4mm scales (ie OO Gauge and OO9 gauge and possibly others) Remember it is a gauge war not a scale war and the modellers who model in 4mm and OO gauge are easily upset by those who think EM = P4 not equal OO !

 

EM/P4 both have their rightful place as ways to improve OO within 4mm scale but have no place outside or as a scale of their own.

 

Hence, I do not see a place for a separate forum.

 

As for searching, google seems to work far better than the site search engine (it has always been the case). Perhaps it might work better if the tags were actively used - but I'm one of those who thinks anything in 4mm (with the only exception of track) is just as relevant to EM/P4/OO and posts on EM are as irrelevant to P4 as they are to OO so an EM/P4 separate forum makes as much sense as a OO/EM separate forum.

[truffy]

but I'd like to point out to you that EM/P4 is not a "scale" but a "gauge"

I never said otherwise...

 

There are a myriad of other scales represented (2mm, 3mm, 7mm, O, S, T), but nothing that I can see for 4mm variants.

And by that I meant that 4mm is the scale in question. It wasn't worded very well, admittedly.

 

EM/P4 is well represented on RMWeb along with the other 4mm scales (ie OO Gauge and OO9 gauge and possibly others) Remember it is a gauge war not a scale war and the modellers who model in 4mm and OO gauge are easily upset by those who think EM = P4 not equal OO !

 

EM/P4 both have their rightful place as ways to improve OO within 4mm scale but have no place outside or as a scale of their own.

 

Hence, I do not see a place for a separate forum.

I do realise that anything other than track gauge is relevant across all the gauges within 4mm, and I'm not interested in starting a war, just information. That's where I thought a 4mm or EM/P4 speciality would be helpful in not dredging up old debates while at the same time allowing the great unwashed (me) to make some decisions and ask not too annoying questions.

 

But perhaps that has to be done elsewhere....

[Jol Wilkinson]

 I realise that joining the EM and/or Scale4 societies would be the ideal route in the long term (and in the event that I take this route that is what I will do), but a forum to share knowledge here would be a help.

 

Truffy,

 

if you are thinking of modelling EM or P4 track/wheel standards, then joining the relevant society is something to think about in the short, rather than the long, term. Both are excellent societies, although the S4 Society has the benefit of a very good forum which you can view as a non member.

 

There are few dedicated topics covering EM or P4 related subjects on RMWeb. Decent 4mm modelling happens irrespective of gauge, so in many cases it doesn't really matter. However, if you want to discover/understand/get advice on the stuff that is relevant to those gauges, then you need to look to one or other of the Societies.

 

Jol

[truffy]

Thanks Jol. You may be right. Unfortunately, EMGS requires membership to join the forum, and I fear that P4 may be a little too 'hairy chested' for my time/skills. So I had a few numpty questions that I wanted to cover before going too much further.

 

Perhaps next year I'll get to a show where I can ask questions f2f.

[Miss Prism]

Notwithstanding Jol's and Martin's good advice, I would suggest truffy should tease out his specific questions and ask them in specific threads within the appropriate forums, e.g. trackwork, motors and drive systems, kit and scratch building.

[BG John]

Isn't the real issue helping people to deal with differences from the dominant scale/gauge combinations? So things like changing wheels, fitting longer axles, working with finer standards, sourcing specialist parts etc. Presumably this applies to all scales, rather than just to EM and P4. Of course this brings up the elitist finescale versus the rest stuff again, but it's not about that. It's about helping people with specific areas that don't affect the majority who run RTR more or less out of the box, and build kits as they were designed to be built. The Scalefour Society may have a good forum (that I haven't looked at, and I'm not a member), but there's virtually nothing on the EMGS one, and my other interest, The Broad Gauge Society, only has an e-mail group where very little modelling is discussed. I'm sure support from the various other specialist societies is equally patchy.

 

So maybe a Finescale Forum, but probably with a different name to avoid all the elitist stuff, would be better than a EM/P4 one.

[Taz]

I would say just ask your questions. If you state that you have searched for the answer but not found it people won't bite your head off if it has been dealt with before. You will either get a link to the relevant thread or an answer. 

There are dozens of highly skilled modellers here who work in both gauges who are willing to give their time and knowledge freely. Take advantage of it. One day you may be able to repay the favour

[Kenton]

There is certainly one drawback to getting your information from the closed societies ... you have to make your mind up first if it is EM or P4 that you wish to "up-gauge" to. The societies are full of very good information but the decision on which one to go for needs to be made prior to paying out subscriptions.

 

and I agree with Taz there are plenty of members on here who model in more than one of the 4mm gauges even some of those who model in OO also model in the finer gauges.

[islandbridgejct]

Hi Truffy,

 

I started in P4 a bit over a year ago, but have been at a standstill since February due to work commitments.

 

If you want to PM me with any questions you have, I'll see if I can answer them.

 

Alternatively, you could start a thread on Modelling Questions asking for advice on which to go for. It'll be a bear pit, of course, when the National Socialist Association of Railway Modellers finds out about it.

 

I agree that someone should be able to get as much advice as they want before deciding whether to join a particular society. I plumped for P4 over EM because (a) I was afraid that I might in a few years time decide I wanted better standards (it's happened before), (b) they provided more online resources to tempt me into taking the plunge (or at least, I found more), and © it's what Adavoyle was built to, and once I saw it, I was hooked.

 

Best of luck anyway,

 

 

Alan

[martin_wynne]

Definitely done to death

 

Hi Kenton,

 

Truffy didn't say otherwise. What he asked for was a means to find the "done to death" topics.

 

His suggestion for a separate forum was for somewhere to keep the "done to death" links. Not for somewhere to re-run the arguments.

 

Martin.

[johndon]

Thanks Jol. You may be right. Unfortunately, EMGS requires membership to join the forum, and I fear that P4 may be a little too 'hairy chested' for my time/skills. So I had a few numpty questions that I wanted to cover before going too much further.

 

Perhaps next year I'll get to a show where I can ask questions f2f.

The S4 society forum has a guest section where anyone can post without being a member. Having started in P4 last year, I can guarantee that it is no where near as 'hairy chested' as you think...

 

John

[davknigh]

Thanks Jol. You may be right. Unfortunately, EMGS requires membership to join the forum, and I fear that P4 may be a little too 'hairy chested' for my time/skills. So I had a few numpty questions that I wanted to cover before going too much further.

 

Perhaps next year I'll get to a show where I can ask questions f2f.

Hi Truffy,

 

There is no such thing as a 'numpty' question. The fact that you are asking a question in the first place is a Good Thing and shows you want to learn. Contrary to some propaganda hair shirts are not required on the Scalefour web forum and in fact P4 can be quite straightforward depending on your choice of prototype. Pop over to http://www.scalefour.org/ and have a rummage about and ask your questions.

 

 

HTH

 

David

[Wellyboots]

There is certainly one drawback to getting your information from the closed societies ... you have to make your mind up first if it is EM or P4 that you wish to "up-gauge" to. The societies are full of very good information but the decision on which one to go for needs to be made prior to paying out subscriptions. and I agree with Taz there are plenty of members on here who model in more than one of the 4mm gauges even some of those who model in OO also model in the finer gauges.

 

Not really the EMGS caters for both EM and P4, so maybe join them first and later if you want you could join the Scalefour Society. I'm a member of both and have been for some time.

[kipford]

The societies are full of very good information but the decision on which one to go for needs to be made prior to paying out subscriptions.

 

EMGS caters for both EM and P4. I model in EM but belong to both societies and did so before switching to EM.

 

I agreed that dedicated EM/P4 section is elitist, hand built track is equally easy/difficult in oo/em/p4 scenery/buildings is the same, the only real difference is p4 is more tricky (in some instances than em is than oo to convert RTR stock.

[truffy]

We get accused of elitism often enough, thanks!

 

 

I agreed that dedicated EM/P4 section is elitist, hand built track is equally easy/difficult in oo/em/p4 scenery/buildings is the same, the only real difference is p4 is more tricky (in some instances than em is than oo to convert RTR stock.

 

The purpose of my suggestion was not to foster elitism, but to identify a 'go to' place for information and advice. However, sadly it would appear that that is not possible on RMW.

[Andy Y]

However, sadly it would appear that that is not possible on RMW.

 

That's not the case really; part of my reasoning to not have specific EM or P4 sections is so that nothing is taken away from the EMGS or the Scalefour Societies own web efforts (happy for each to have their own presence and promotion on here though if they ever wish). If people choose to tag their projects as EM or P4 to assist in finding content then that's their choice.

[MartinWales]

There is certainly one drawback to getting your information from the closed societies ... you have to make your mind up first if it is EM or P4 that you wish to "up-gauge" to. 

Not neccessarily so! As the EMGS caters for both 18.2/18.83!

[MartinWales]

So maybe a Finescale Forum, but probably with a different name to avoid all the elitist stuff, would be better than a EM/P4 one.

Do like the idea, and maybe help more into modelling them in due course 

[MartinWales]

The purpose of my suggestion was not to foster elitism, but to identify a 'go to' place for information and advice. However, sadly it would appear that that is not possible on RMW.

Truffy-please still ask the questions-so that may be answered by the myriad of experienced modellers which frequent this site and continue to do so in the future  

[Kenton]

 

Hi Kenton,

 

Truffy didn't say otherwise. What he asked for was a means to find the "done to death" topics.

 

His suggestion for a separate forum was for somewhere to keep the "done to death" links. Not for somewhere to re-run the arguments.

 

Martin.

 

Martin I lnow and that was hat I was getting at - it was not an attack on the OP as you imply.

 

passing on ...

 

 

The purpose of my suggestion was not to foster elitism, but to identify a 'go to' place for information and advice. However, sadly it would appear that that is not possible on RMW.

 

I didn't think it was your intention. But having been around these parts an awfully long time, that is the way a separate forum for EM/P4 will be seen by many. Indeed any separate forum or plea for one to be created used to be very frowned upon by Andy and possibly the majority of membership until very recently. All these sub forums simply fragment the site and inevitably you get cliques formed often with the added "we are not interested in xyz as it has nothing worthy of us reading".

 

There is another aspect and this is are they of any use anyway? I, and I know many others do, use the "Active/New topics" to see what is happening on RMWeb and there all these sub forums are meaningless - the topic title rules. If I want to search for something specific I go to Google and often find things less than a day old. I never go to the home page of RMWeb as there is nothing of interest for me there, but I can get involved in whatever is happening (I model in many scales and gauges) from the base page of active topics.

 

It may be a different way of doing things than other sites - but this is RMWeb.

[Guest Celticwardog]

lol the lid is ajar......worms are peeking out