Belgian ferry Vans on Eastern Region

[jonhall]

Can anyone id this location? The caption describes it as a London Freight depot, the lorry seems to be operated from an address in Savage Gardens EC?2?

 

 

The photo appears in Transport Age 12 published by the BTC in Jan 1960, there appears to be 15 odd belgian vans, at least on Geman van, and a couple of Belgian or German opens. Anyone care to suggest what comodity was being import/exported?

 

thanks.

 

Jon

[Adam]

If it helps, the loco in the background is either 11057 or 11058 (D2957/8) which both worked out of Stratford as far as I'm aware. I appreciate that this isn't entirely helpful since the operator of the Thames Trader would suggest that in any event and goodness only knows how many freight yards there were in the vicinity of Stratford. There's a nice picture of one of the Rustons here and another here. The only Savage Gardens I could locate evidence of is EC3, round the corner from Fenchurch Street though the lorry actually has a Norwich registration mark. That doesn't really help either since the number of road hauliers in East London in the '60s was legion...

 

Adam

[jwealleans]

Jon, I was reading through the article this week and was struck by the other photo of a goods yard, said to be Mile End. Is it possible they're the same yard, pictured looking in opposite directions? There's nothing really to suggest either way except a line of trees in the same place; a track plan may help but it might be a long shot.

 

I can ask on the BR Yahoo group - I don't think you're a member, are you?

[Shadow]

Found this link to a picture of one of the East Anglian Carriers Ltd lorries alongside what appears to be an elevated railway.

 

Any help? (edit:-Last photo on page)

 

EAC Lorry

 

Shadow

[jonhall]

Jon, I was reading through the article this week and was struck by the other photo of a goods yard, said to be Mile End. Is it possible they're the same yard, pictured looking in opposite directions? There's nothing really to suggest either way except a line of trees in the same place; a track plan may help but it might be a long shot.

 

I can ask on the BR Yahoo group - I don't think you're a member, are you?

 

I suspect it might be Mile end, the shaddow cast by the handrail on the building that the photographer is standing on is the same in both photos, although I think they might be very different dates.

 

this book from Middleton Press might offer similar views which might verify the location? http://www.middletonpress.co.uk/details.php?bdetails=978%201%20901706%2034%205

 

Thanks to all who have offered suggestions.

 

Which BR yahoo group?

 

Jon

[Gwiwer]

There is also a Savage Gardens in Beckton, East London, postcode E6, and which used to be the end of a busy dock line branching from the Stratford - North Woolwich route at Custom House. Savage Gardens was, until the area was redeveloped, a short street running alongside a area of parkland to the north and bounded by the railway to the south. The Stratford-based shunter fits with this location as well.

 

Are we looking at Beckton here?

 

The other area which comes to mind is Ipswich. The lorry might carry a London address but is badged "East Anglian Carriers"; the London connection might be a red herring. The Norwich registration on the vehicle suggests a location closer to there than London itself. With the Hook of Holland - Harwich train ferry just around the corner as a means of getting these foreign wagons into the UK and a one-time network of dockside and industrial lines this is another possibility.

[jwealleans]

Which BR yahoo group?

 

This one.

[jonhall]

This one.

No - not a member of that one, I'm trying to keep my yahoo membership to 'only' 20 groups

 

Jon

[roythebus]

Too many trees, and not enough industry for Beckton; too much industry for East Anglia, so my bet would be Mile End.

[jonhall]

I've been working on these for some time, so my discovery of a photo with a dozen of them in a booklet on Saturday prompted a little flurry of activity.

 

Not what most people would expect me, a 'Modern Image' modeller, to be building - Belgian ferry vans of c1917, but there is a photo in one of David Larkin's Bradford Barton books that is dated 1971!

 

First prototype scratchbuilt in plastic is now nearly ready to paint.

 

 

Resin bodyshell no major work started yet.

 

 

Jon

[jonhall]

Two more survivors seen this weekend in Belgium, the first is clearly missing wheels, but appears to still have some springs and W irons - Grounded in Antwerp Docks area.

 

 

The second is 'preserved' at St Gislain.

 

 

Jon

[trisonic]

Fresh flowers for Spitalfields Flower Market??? Next door to the then Wholesale Fruit and Veg Market - could be them too. My maternal Grandfather owned a stand there.

 

Best, Pete

[PhilJ W]

It is Mile End, the trees in the background are in a public park known as Meath Gardens. The photograph will probably have been taken shortly after the fire that destroyed the Bishopsgate goods depot which was the usual destination of the continental traffic..

[jonhall]

It is Mile End (north side), the trees in the background are in a public park known as Meath Gardens. The photograph will probably have been taken shortly after the fire that destroyed the Bishopsgate goods depot which was the usual destination of the continental traffic..

 

Thanks to all that had conformed the location, I had forgotten to change the sub-heading. I re-activated this thread, as I know I'm not the only person on here with an interest in these vans..

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php/topic/892-west-end-workbench/page__st__50

 

Jon

[Fat Controller]

Two more survivors seen this weekend in Belgium, the first is clearly missing wheels, but appears to still have some springs and W irons - Grounded in Antwerp Docks area.

 

 

The second is 'preserved' at St Gislain.

 

 

Jon

That second one's had it's suspension upgraded, hasn't it? Looking at these vans, it becomes easier to visualise what the vans that were being built for the BEF in 1939 might have looked like- those are the ones whose underframes ended up under LNER hoppers post-Dunkirk.

[jonhall]

That second one's had it's suspension upgraded, hasn't it? Looking at these vans, it becomes easier to visualise what the vans that were being built for the BEF in 1939 might have looked like- those are the ones whose underframes ended up under LNER hoppers post-Dunkirk.

 

Yes, the example preserved at Maldegem has also got UIC double link suspension. The photo i've uploaded dosn't show it very well, but that example at StGislain has spoked wheels one end (might even be split-spokes) and discs the other. I guess thats a post-ferry modification, but you never know...

 

I'm not familiar with the BEF vans.

 

Jon

[PhilJ W]

Yes, the example preserved at Maldegem has also got UIC double link suspension. The photo i've uploaded dosn't show it very well, but that example at StGislain has spoked wheels one end (might even be split-spokes) and discs the other. I guess thats a post-ferry modification, but you never know...

 

I'm not familiar with the BEF vans.

 

Jon

Many of these vans were British built for the British army during WW1. There is an article in BRILL Vol. 2 No. 6 (Aug-Sep 1993) that includes both plans and photographs of this stock. A lot of this stock was disposed of to the French and Belgian railways after the war as well as to the GER. Some was retained by the military and went with the BEF to France in 1939/40 most if not all of it being lost.

[Poggy1165]

I remember seeing vehicles of this kind in the sidings at Ashburys, near Manchester in (I think) the late 60s or early 70s. I have no idea what route they took to get there, what the traffic was, or where they were actually unloaded - Ashburys being more of a marshalling and storage location - but they were very striking and obviously 'different' to yer average wagon of the time.

[Fat Controller]

Many of these vans were British built for the British army during WW1. There is an article in BRILL Vol. 2 No. 6 (Aug-Sep 1993) that includes both plans and photographs of this stock. A lot of this stock was disposed of to the French and Belgian railways after the war as well as to the GER. Some was retained by the military and went with the BEF to France in 1939/40 most if not all of it being lost.

There was a new build to an OCEM (French equivalent to the RCH in terms of standardisation) design in 1938/9, ordered by the War Department in anticipation of WW2. Some ended up in France (where an underframe was recently noted at a French military site near Chateauroux), some went to the British forces in Egypt, whilst those underframes which had not received a body were given LNER hopper bodies and brake gear. In theory, these latter wagons were dedicated to MoS iron ore traffic.

[jwealleans]

I didn't know anything about the 1938-39 build. Is there any published information?

 

The German railways built some ferry vans in 1940 in anticipation of increased traffic to England, which of course never materialised...

 

Vans in store at Ashburys was probably the pool of vans BR maintained (despite the fact that demurrage was still payable) to deal with incoming demand for ferry traffic.

 

With regard to the WW I vans, I have a couple of correspondents in Belgium who told me that most of their railway material was carted off to the Eastern Front during the war and never returned. Some of those vans did survive, though (presumably in this country during hostilities) as there's a photo of the LNER electric loco being loaded onto a ferry at Harwich in about 1947 with two or three in the background. That's my excuse for running one on Thurston, anyway.

[Fat Controller]

I didn't know anything about the 1938-39 build. Is there any published information?

 

The German railways built some ferry vans in 1940 in anticipation of increased traffic to England, which of course never materialised...

 

Vans in store at Ashburys was probably the pool of vans BR maintained (despite the fact that demurrage was still payable) to deal with incoming demand for ferry traffic.

 

With regard to the WW I vans, I have a couple of correspondents in Belgium who told me that most of their railway material was carted off to the Eastern Front during the war and never returned. Some of those vans did survive, though (presumably in this country during hostilities) as there's a photo of the LNER electric loco being loaded onto a ferry at Harwich in about 1947 with two or three in the background. That's my excuse for running one on Thurston, anyway.

James,

I've looked in the usual place for any details of the 1938 build, but the only thing I've found was a reiteration (in French) of what I said. The fact that the 21t hoppers were built on underframes intended for continental use has been noted for several decades- David Larkin commented on it in one of his 1970s publications, and it would have been evident from the running gear anyway.

Italian wagons to a similar design to the Belgian ones seemed to last into the 1970s- long after that, I came upon a line of them stored on a disused branch line between Rome and Naples.

[andyrush]

Some ferry vans shown at Spitalfields on 19.04.1955

 

 

Regards

 

Andy

[jonhall]

Nice photo.

 

J

[gresley]

I remember seeing vehicles of this kind in the sidings at Ashburys, near Manchester in (I think) the late 60s or early 70s. I have no idea what route they took to get there, what the traffic was, or where they were actually unloaded - Ashburys being more of a marshalling and storage location - but they were very striking and obviously 'different' to yer average wagon of the time.

 

There were quite a lot of Belgian, and French together with a few German ones at Ashburys regularly throughout the 1950s. They used the train ferries to/from Harwich, and brought fruit and veg and flowers from Holland/Belgium/France to The Manchester wholesale markets.

 

gresley

[roythebus]

Nice pic there from Andy; it looks too much like a model railway though!!

 

there's an outfit called Febelrail with a website for Belgian railway enthusiasts who may be able to offer more info on these wagons.