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M&SWJR wagons

MSWJR Slaters M&SWJR




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#1 Mikkel

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Posted 12 April 2014 - 20:20

I'm looking for a few "foreign" company wagons for my goods depot. As the M&SWJR is close, I'd like a wagon from that company.

 

I haven't been able to find any 4mm plastic or whitemetal kits though (I'm aware of the etched brass ones). However, according to notes on this page over on gwr.org.uk, the M&SWJR based some of its designs on the MR designs, including the MR 3 plank wagon and 10 ton van available from Slaters. I have both of those kits, but I'm not sure exaclty how close they are to the M&SWJR design. Does anyone know?

 

 


Edited by Mikkel, 19 April 2014 - 17:01 .


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#2 TheQ

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Posted 12 April 2014 - 21:36

Smallbrook do a model of the LSWR 10 ton goods brake van, which with the addition of a central pillar on the veranda becomes the mswjr G B van.
private owner wagaons have been available, from the mswjr line, Days, Rawlings, both coal merchants, an Andover furniture remover.
I presume the etched kits are the mousa models kits.
You'd need to have access to the mswjr volume 3, carriages and wagons by Mike Barnsley from wild swan to compare the drawings with the kits.
There have been articles in magazines with drawings of wagons, a Google search will bring up mickssrsource with an index.
You could submit a question on the Swindon's other railway site, guestbook, Mike Barnsley is often available to answer, if Neil Lover the site owner can't help.
The Q
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#3 Miss Prism

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Posted 12 April 2014 - 21:37

The Slaters 8T and 10T vans have always looked to me to be as near identical to the M&SWJR equivalents as makes no difference. Worth checking on the axleboxes though. Don't know about the opens, but I'd be surprised if there was much difference there either.


Edited by Miss Prism, 16 April 2014 - 12:03 .

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#4 Mikkel

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Posted 12 April 2014 - 22:37

Thanks very much Q and Miss P. 

 

The Wild Swan volume sounds good, although perhaps a little much for building a single wagon. I see from the "mickssrsource" index that RM had a drawing of the 10 ton van. I'll see if I can get hold of that for comparison with the Slater's kit. I'll also try a query on the Swindon's Other Railway site.

 

Yes I was thinking of Bill Bedford for the etched kits, although I notice now there is only a van in his range at present (might go for one of those GCR opens though!).

 

The PO names are useful for a future layout, thanks.



#5 Buckjumper

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Posted 13 April 2014 - 01:33

There are 4 M&SWJ wagons in the Ken Werrett list, one of which is the 10T van no.303 illustrated in June 1975 RM, and another is the 8T Van (could this also be the same as the Midland 8T van by Coopercraft?) no.158 with a through pipe in MRN December 1961. I have both drawings on a computer I can't access atm due to the current circumstances, but I know someone who can.


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#6 Mikkel

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Posted 13 April 2014 - 14:51

Thanks Buckjumper, it would be interesting to know if the dimensions match. Having said that, I'm beginning to realize the variety of 8 and 10 ton vans on the Midland - much as a non-GWR modeller would if he looked at GWR vans  :). Looks like I need to get the Essery book on MR wagons too. These things tend to grow, don't they! 



#7 Buckjumper

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Posted 13 April 2014 - 15:45

I'm beginning to realize the variety of 8 and 10 ton vans on the Midland - much as a non-GWR modeller would if he looked at GWR vans  :). Looks like I need to get the Essery book on MR wagons too. These things tend to grow, don't they!


And then volume 2, then WSP hav a nice LNW pair, and a nice L&Y pair,and the one on the North Staffs, and the trio on pre-Group LNER, and OPCs's Southern pre-Group trilogy, and...

And soon you realise you're a wagonphile! :D
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#8 jcm@gwr

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Posted 13 April 2014 - 16:07

And soon you realise you're a wagonphile! :D

 

Pedant mode on-

 

'If you're going to suggest a fellow member has a

problem, at least get the terminology right!'

 

vanophile or truckaholic, are both

sub-headings under wagonitis.       :rtfm:  

 

Pedant mode off-

 

Jeff  :jester:


Edited by jcm@gwr, 13 April 2014 - 16:11 .

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#9 Mikkel

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Posted 13 April 2014 - 16:12

And then volume 2, then WSP hav a nice LNW pair, and a nice L&Y pair,and the one on the North Staffs, and the trio on pre-Group LNER, and OPCs's Southern pre-Group trilogy, and...

And soon you realise you're a wagonphile! :D

 

Absolutely. A small handful of LSWR and LBSC kits are winging their way across the North Sea as we speak.


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#10 Mikkel

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Posted 13 April 2014 - 16:16

Pedant mode on-

 

'If you're going to suggest a fellow member has a

problem, at least get the terminology right!'

 

vanophile or truckaholic, are both

sub-headings under wagonitis.       :rtfm:  

 

Pedant mode off-

 

Jeff  :jester:

 

Is there a sub-sub heading for those of us who like round-ended wagons? 


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#11 jcm@gwr

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Posted 13 April 2014 - 16:21

Is there a sub-sub heading for those of us who like round-ended wagons? 

 

O.C.D.  (Oval Cargo Disorder)?  :scratchhead:

 

Jeff


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#12 wagonman

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Posted 13 April 2014 - 21:19

There are 4 M&SWJ wagons in the Ken Werrett list, one of which is the 10T van no.303 illustrated in June 1975 RM, and another is the 8T Van (could this also be the same as the Midland 8T van by Coopercraft?) no.158 with a through pipe in MRN December 1961. I have both drawings on a computer I can't access atm due to the current circumstances, but I know someone who can.

 

The van 303 was built at Cirencester works in 1918 so of limited use to MSWJR period modellers, van 158 was one of the very plain vans supplied by Glos RC&WCo in 1896 – metal underframe, no external framing and a corrugated iron roof! This particular one was rebuilt as a milk van in 1902 though it later reverted to goods use which is when the horizontal bottom plank was fitted (as a milk van that was open for ventilation). None of the 5 plank wagons bear any resemblance to MR designs but there were some 3 plank dropsides thought to have been built (by Oldbury in 1899) to the MR D.305 design though with a plain grease box rather than the Ellis type on the Slaters/Coopercraft kit.

 

As for PO wagons, most of those that were available from Slaters were from the northern end of the line and probably emptied to midlands collieries, Rawlings was post 1925 ( the business was set up in the 1900s but doesn't seem to have had any wagons until 1925).

 

I did lash up a few MSWJR wagons back in my EM days (1970s) – might even have them somewhere...


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#13 Mikkel

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 06:24

Thanks Richard, I had been wondering about the 3-planker. I have found a few other references scattered around the web that these 3-plankers were also used by the M&SWJR, so good to get more solid info on this. The 1899 date is very useful for me personally, as that means it will fit my 1900s time-period. 

 

Perhaps the axlebox can be replaced with something suitable from MJT - it's nice with a bit of difference from the original kit. The M&SWJR grease boxes on other wagons of the period seem similar in outline to GWR grease boxes. 

 

There's an M&SWJR 3-planker from Gloucester Works dated 1896 in Slinn's GW Way (also on the web here) , which shows the livery for one of these nicely. Slinn also has a photo of the corrugated iron-roofed van mentioned by Richard. I wonder if that's the one available from Bill Bedford. These photos suggest that the 3-planker needs replacement buffers, too.

 

Since the D305 is also available for 2mm modellers I assume they would be able to do the M&SWJR 3 planker too (with suitable mods). John Brenchley here on RMweb has done a nice build of the MR version.

 

It occurs to me that this means the GWR might have had a few of the Oldbury 3-plankers running too, or would they perhaps have scrapped them when taking over the M&SWJR.


Edited by Mikkel, 14 April 2014 - 06:28 .

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#14 wagonman

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 13:35

Thanks Richard, I had been wondering about the 3-planker. I have found a few other references scattered around the web that these 3-plankers were also used by the M&SWJR, so good to get more solid info on this. The 1899 date is very useful for me personally, as that means it will fit my 1900s time-period. 

 

Perhaps the axlebox can be replaced with something suitable from MJT - it's nice with a bit of difference from the original kit. The M&SWJR grease boxes on other wagons of the period seem similar in outline to GWR grease boxes. 

 

There's an M&SWJR 3-planker from Gloucester Works dated 1896 in Slinn's GW Way (also on the web here) , which shows the livery for one of these nicely. Slinn also has a photo of the corrugated iron-roofed van mentioned by Richard. I wonder if that's the one available from Bill Bedford. These photos suggest that the 3-planker needs replacement buffers, too.

 

Since the D305 is also available for 2mm modellers I assume they would be able to do the M&SWJR 3 planker too (with suitable mods). John Brenchley here on RMweb has done a nice build of the MR version.

 

It occurs to me that this means the GWR might have had a few of the Oldbury 3-plankers running too, or would they perhaps have scrapped them when taking over the M&SWJR.

 

The story of MSWJR wagons is rather convoluted! Start with the 3 plankers, it is assumed (by Mike Barnsley at least) that the Oldbury batch were based on the MR D305 design, though interestingly they were rated at 10 tons rather than 8T of the MR version. Presumably slightly larger bearings inside those plain grease axleboxes (GWR grease would be a good substitute). The wagons were numbered 213-232 on the MSW and given GWR numbers 80771 to 80790 (at least two 80774/5 never carried their new numbers as they were scrapped in 12/1923) and were scrapped between 1927 and 1932. So, not a lot of service in GWR hands.

 

The Glos 3-plankers were rather different – longer, with simpler brakes and metal underframe – even the livery was different as 232 had the MSWJR in 6 inch (?) lettering on the LH side of the middle plank and the number on the RH side. Photos also exist of similar wagons with larger (16" ?) lettering. Interestingly the Glos 3plank wagons lasted into the 1950s/60s – presumably because of the metal underframe.

 

The Bill Bedford kit is for van no.303 which was built in 1918 at Cirencester works as a replacement for one of the original SMAR vans of 1881 vintage which had been rebuilt as a milk truck (they knocked out alternate planks) but had reverted to goods use sometime between 1909 and 1915; presumably they just filled in the holes again?

 

Ken Werrett did a drawing of the 'new' 303 – which is probably the basis of the kit – but only 307, and possibly 308/9, were to the same design. 303 became GW 100829 and was disposed of in 1932. [all these details from Barnsley's vol 3]

 

Hope that's some use!


Edited by wagonman, 14 April 2014 - 13:38 .

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#15 Mikkel

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 17:54

Hope that's some use!

 

It certainly is, thanks very much Richard! That's one project in the pipeline then. I'll continue investigating the MR 8/10 T vans also. 



#16 wagonman

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 10:57

The Slaters 8T and 10T vans have always looked to me to be as near identical to the M&SWJR equivalents as makes no difference. Worth checking on the axleboxes though. Don't know about the opens, but I'd be surprised if there was much difference there either.

 

Reluctant as I am to bandy words with Miss Prism, none of the known MSWJR vans bore even a remote resemblance to the MR designs. Were you perhaps thinking of the SDJR?

 

PS: it is thought that the Oldbury batch 233-242 built in 1899 had similar dimensions to MR D363, but no-one has found a drawing or photo to prove this either way. Worth a punt?


Edited by wagonman, 16 April 2014 - 11:25 .


#17 wagonman

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 11:21

Well I found the EM wagons, or at least some of them. I elbowed a bit of space on what I laughingly call my workbench and did a couple of quick snaps...

 

 

MSW wags.jpg

 

 

The van 157 is one of the Glos 'utility' vans from 1896 still in its original condition. It became GWR 100812 and lasted until 1947 though the brake gear would have been modified at some point and it probably received oil axleboxes. Scratch built.

 

Milk Van 2 is one of a batch of four built in 1909 by Cirencester Works on the frames of MSW carriage trucks nos.1-4. They carried the same numbers when rebuilt. In appearance this is not unlike the rebuilt vans like 158 though it is vac fitted and painted in passenger livery. I made this from my own (rather unsuccessful) resin kit!

 

Timber truck 209 was built in 1896 which make the dumb buffers seem rather odd.  It was shunted off to Cardiff Docks in 1926 for internal use. Scratchbuilt.

 

Open 65 was one of the original SMAR wagons from 1883 which somehow managed to survive to GWR days (as 34369) before being scrapped in 1928. Its ends may have been cut square by then. Scratchbuilt.

 

 

MSW POs.jpg

 

A few MSW area POs. The Wilmer wagon is scratchbuilt, the others are Slaters with various modifications. They were built a long time ago – before Slaters brought out their pre-lettered kits... The Vitti wagon needs a load as it looks rather bare inside.

 

 

Hey ho

 

 

 

 

 


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#18 Miss Prism

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 11:21

Reluctant as I am to bandy words with Miss Prism, none of the MSWJR vans bore even a remote resemblance to the MR designs. Were you perhaps thinking of the SDJR?

 
I think I got it confused on both counts, Richard, and my apologies to all. I wasn't thinking of the SDJR, but was thinking of the Terry McDermot kit for the MSJWR 8-ton van (based on the Ken Werrett drawing in July 1979 Railway Modeller. However, on revisiting that model, its body framing is X-shaped either side of the doors (like LSWR vans of that era) and not like the Derby designs.

I don't have the Mike Barnsley books, so should perhaps have kept my big mouth shut!
 



#19 wagonman

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 13:22

 
I think I got it confused on both counts, Richard, and my apologies to all. I wasn't thinking of the SDJR, but was thinking of the Terry McDermot kit for the MSJWR 8-ton van (based on the Ken Werrett drawing in July 1979 Railway Modeller. However, on revisiting that model, its body framing is X-shaped either side of the doors (like LSWR vans of that era) and not like the Derby designs.

I don't have the Mike Barnsley books, so should perhaps have kept my big mouth shut!
 

 

I thought the MacDermot kit was also SDJR. It definitely was for an X-braced van – I think the SDJ ones were longer than the SMA/MSWJR version, but as I don't have a copy of his kit (just a vague memory) I had better shut up too!

 

The Barnsley books are my bible on all things MSW. I did start researching it about 40 years ago but soon realised that Mike was way ahead of me and turned my attention elsewhere :-)



#20 Mikkel

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Posted 17 April 2014 - 12:00

Well I found the EM wagons, or at least some of them. I elbowed a bit of space on what I laughingly call my workbench and did a couple of quick snaps...


attachicon.gifMSW wags.jpg


The van 157 is one of the Glos 'utility' vans from 1896 still in its original condition. It became GWR 100812 and lasted until 1947 though the brake gear would have been modified at some point and it probably received oil axleboxes. Scratch built.

Milk Van 2 is one of a batch of four built in 1909 by Cirencester Works on the frames of MSW carriage trucks nos.1-4. They carried the same numbers when rebuilt. In appearance this is not unlike the rebuilt vans like 158 though it is vac fitted and painted in passenger livery. I made this from my own (rather unsuccessful) resin kit!

Timber truck 209 was built in 1896 which make the dumb buffers seem rather odd. It was shunted off to Cardiff Docks in 1926 for internal use. Scratchbuilt.

Open 65 was one of the original SMAR wagons from 1883 which somehow managed to survive to GWR days (as 34369) before being scrapped in 1928. Its ends may have been cut square by then. Scratchbuilt.


attachicon.gifMSW POs.jpg

A few MSW area POs. The Wilmer wagon is scratchbuilt, the others are Slaters with various modifications. They were built a long time ago – before Slaters brought out their pre-lettered kits... The Vitti wagon needs a load as it looks rather bare inside.


Hey ho

Lovely wagons, Richard. I like the dumb buffers on that timber wagon! The SMAR wagon is interesting too. I understand from Eric Gates that he also had some castings for an old SMAR wagon in his Woodham Wagon Works range in the mid 90s. Like hen's teeth now, I imagine.

I see your wagons have those thick round buffers. They look temptingly similar to Collett square based buffers. Not clear to me though if the round buffers were used on all the MSWJR wagons, including the ex-Midland D305 wagons.

(edited to clarify)

Edited by Mikkel, 17 April 2014 - 12:04 .


#21 wagonman

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Posted 17 April 2014 - 16:01

I'm currently in Germany so a long way from my books and models. I think it was only the Glos built wagons that had the fat self contained buffers (the SMAR stock was somewhere in between) which I think we're made by turning down some GWR s/c buffers. I missed out on Eric Gates' kits alas...
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#22 Mikkel

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Posted 20 April 2014 - 17:04

Img_2890ok.jpg

 

Well here's progress so far. Body built more or less as per instructions, but using replacement MJT W-irons and GWR grease axleboxes, which seem very similar to the MSWJR ones I have seen.

 

Didn't notice the production fault in the planks on the lefthand side - need to fix that with a bit of scribing. I left the various fittings on the solebars until further evidence comes up - but presumably I'll need to remove at least the MR build plate. I've also left the buffers so far, as I'm beginning to believe they were actually quite similar to the MSWJR type.

 

I think there's a photo of a couple of these wagons on the Swindon's Other Railway site. I had better not deep-link to it, but see menu item called "A tour along the line courtesy of Mike Barnsley" under "Chedworth to Foss Cross Quarry" - second last photo in that group.

 

On the same site, the photos of Chris Walker's O gauge Swindon Town station seem to show that he's done a 7 mm model of these wagons, perhaps using the 7mm version of the Slater's kit (see 3rd photo in group).

 

It seems that someone has done 7mm castings for MSWJR W irons and axleboxes, there have been various on ebay, eg these.

 

4mm MSWJR transfers don't seem to be generally available, but I think the HMRS sheets with Private Owner "white shaded black" letters could be used - quite expensive, but I need the lettering for some Farthing based P.O. wagons anyway. 

 

EDIT 1: I have now seen a drawing of the actual wagons. The axleboxes look like they require a bit of filing to fit the shape. But otherwise everything is pretty straightforward as per the MR kit. On the solebar, MR  build plates and a couple of other plates need to be removed. Buffers appear to be MR type as per the kit.

 

EDIT 2: Having worked on the axleboxes, I'm wondering if it actually makes much sense to use GWR ones as the basis. Their shape is not easy to tell from the drawing in the first place. It seems quite different from any other MSWJR axleboxes I have seen. Am going into think mode on this project.


Edited by Mikkel, 21 April 2014 - 06:21 .

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#23 wagonman

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 15:15

attachicon.gifImg_2890ok.jpg

 

Well here's progress so far. Body built more or less as per instructions, but using replacement MJT W-irons and GWR grease axleboxes, which seem very similar to the MSWJR ones I have seen.

 

Didn't notice the production fault in the planks on the lefthand side - need to fix that with a bit of scribing. I left the various fittings on the solebars until further evidence comes up - but presumably I'll need to remove at least the MR build plate. I've also left the buffers so far, as I'm beginning to believe they were actually quite similar to the MSWJR type.

 

I think there's a photo of a couple of these wagons on the Swindon's Other Railway site. I had better not deep-link to it, but see menu item called "A tour along the line courtesy of Mike Barnsley" under "Chedworth to Foss Cross Quarry" - second last photo in that group.

 

On the same site, the photos of Chris Walker's O gauge Swindon Town station seem to show that he's done a 7 mm model of these wagons, perhaps using the 7mm version of the Slater's kit (see 3rd photo in group).

 

It seems that someone has done 7mm castings for MSWJR W irons and axleboxes, there have been various on ebay, eg these.

 

4mm MSWJR transfers don't seem to be generally available, but I think the HMRS sheets with Private Owner "white shaded black" letters could be used - quite expensive, but I need the lettering for some Farthing based P.O. wagons anyway. 

 

EDIT 1: I have now seen a drawing of the actual wagons. The axleboxes look like they require a bit of filing to fit the shape. But otherwise everything is pretty straightforward as per the MR kit. On the solebar, MR  build plates and a couple of other plates need to be removed. Buffers appear to be MR type as per the kit.

 

EDIT 2: Having worked on the axleboxes, I'm wondering if it actually makes much sense to use GWR ones as the basis. Their shape is not easy to tell from the drawing in the first place. It seems quite different from any other MSWJR axleboxes I have seen. Am going into think mode on this project.

 

Nice work Mikkel. The photo of the 3-plank wagons taken at Foss Cross seems to be the only one known as it was in MB's book too. As the MSWJR was buying most of its stock from outside builders I suspect it was given whatever was that builder's standard product in terms of axleboxes and buffers. Drawings of the early Metro-built stock are available from Birmingham City Library – or they were 30 years ago. I think the building has been demolished and replaced by the Library of Birmingham. I don't know what happened to the Oldbury drawings – maybe they went to the Birmingham Library too given that the company "merged" with Metro in 1902.

 

I made my own transfers to 4mm scale using technology courtesy of 3M that is long since obsolete. I don't know of any available nowadays or if one of the small bespoke transfer producers has done them; probably easy enough while the Alps printer and its materials is still available.


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#24 Mikkel

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 18:00

I have continued this conversation with Richard elsewhere and also been in contact with Mike Barnsley and Neil Lover. Here’s a summary of the main points, in case someone else wants to do this conversion at some point. 

 

Many thanks to all who have helped, and especially to Richard, Mike and Neil for their help with the axlebox issue. Most of the info is theirs, any mistakes are mine.

 

The documentation on these wagons is very scant. There is only one known photo of the wagons (available on-line, see my earlier post). A drawing has been produced (see Mike Barnsley’s vol 3), but this is essentially an MR drawing with changed lettering, so some details are not certain.

 

Regarding the axleboxes: Basically no one knows what type was used. They are in the shadow in the photo. As Richard has pointed out, the drawing shows Ellis axleboxes as used on the MR, but this is just a replication of what was on the MR’s wagons. So we have to make an educated guess:

  1. It seems likely that they were grease axleboxes, because immediately on take-over in 1923, the GWR replaced the existing axleboxes with GWR OK oil boxes.
  2. We know that the MSWJR ordered wagons from various wagon works, and we know that their wagons had different types of axleboxes. For example, some of the wagons from the Gloucester Co. were of a simple boxy type, while some of those from the Midland Carriage and Wagon Co. were of the proprietary Attocks design.
  3. On this basis, it seems unlikely that the MSWJR had a standard design of grease axleboxes in the 1890s, when the wagons in question were introduced. As Mike Barnsley puts it, it is likely that at this time the company was much more interested in cost than in standardization or appearances. So when the company ordered new wagons from the various works, they would have gone for whatever type of axlebox was offered at a reasonable price from the manufacturer.
  4. For the wagons in question, it is not impossible that they ordered the Ellis type used on the Midland dia 305, but given the situation of the company it is more likely that they would have gone for a low-cost, simple design offered by the Oldbury works. 

I’ve therefore decided to use a simple, boxy type of axlebox on the wagon, inspired by some of the other wagons running on the MSWJR. It’s only a guess and may seem a bit hazy after all this – but at least that guess is now done on a more informed basis

 

Incidentally, Mike Barnsley adds that in later years the MSWJR “did have an oil axlebox which the GWR described as "MSW oil".  It appears on an MSWJR drawing of an open wagon dated 1917, but was fitted to wagons long before that.  It was somewhat similar in shape to the MR oil axlebox, and can be glimpsed in a couple of photos.“

 

Finally on the subject of buffers, the photo seems to show a type very similar to that employed by the MR, so those in the kit can be maintained.


Edited by Mikkel, 24 April 2014 - 18:04 .

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#25 Mikkel

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 18:14

Meanwhile on the subject of the van drawings in Model Railway News and Railway Modeller discussed earlier, Buckjumper has kindly had a look at them and as Richard states they are sadly too late for the early 1900s. Very nice vans though!

 

Edits to clarify.


Edited by Mikkel, 24 April 2014 - 18:19 .









Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: MSWJR, Slaters, M&SWJR

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