Upgrading a Lima LMS GUV

[brossard]

This is something I've been meaning to do for some while (along with a triplet of Bachmann LMS BGs).  Ben Jones' article in the last BRM was the catalyst to look closely at this model and decide what to do.  My reference is Historic Carriage Drawings, Vol 3, NPCS, by Peter Tatlow.

 

The model:

 

 

Quite attractive really and the body is accurate:

 

 

Stripped to its' component parts:

 

 

Those bogies are actually from the short Hornby LMS Stanier coach and have a wheelbase of 8'6".  The wheels are Bachmann split axle - they went in the bin.  You might guess I've had this model for a long time.  It's time to convert to EM.

 

Working from the ground up, I started with the bogies:

 

 

Wheels are Bachmann reworked to EM spec.  (...yes, yes, I've ordered some EM wheels).  The etch is, to state the obvious, one of Bill Bedford's from Eileen's Emporium.  I do like Bill's kits.

 

Here's the first bogie assembled:

 

 

This rolls very nicely with nary a twitch through the 36" rad. test turnout.

 

Making up the second bogie and modifying the underframe to accept them:

 

 

This assembly whizzes very nicely along the track.

 

Next, I wanted to deal with couplings.  I use scale head Kadee, which in the past have been attached to the bogie.  This time I wanted the coupling on the body - under the bufferbeam alas - so that the bogie can do its' job without interference.

 

This involved fitting buffers, coupling and modifying the bogie:

 

 

You can see I've cut away the front beam of the bogie and added some extra struts.  This worked great on the test track.  So I did the other.  Testing showed a good result.

 

I then added cosmetic sides to the bogies.  These are from Bachmann bogies:

 

 

Tacked with cyano and reinforced with epoxy.  Anyone know of good solderable cosmetic bogie sides?  Comet don't list them separately on the site.

 

I spent a fair bit of time gouging plastic out of the bearing cavity to get the sprung bearing carriers operating freely.

 

Next I turned to the underframe.  A lot has been done, but now I need to detail the center bit.  First I removed some of the floor to give me more room to attach my gubbins.

 

 

I had planned to reuse the plastic trussing (there's some nice bolt detail) but as I was filing, it failed.   I decided to do something in brass.

 

The 4mm drawing in the book gave me all the info I needed and I used some 1mm square tube and 2mm scrap strip:

 

 

The center trusses come from a PC coach that disintegrated (actually the whole rake did).  These were modified to suit the GUV.

 

Trussing assembled and trial fitted.  I don't know about you, but I'm impressed.   Brass is such a wonderful material:

 

 

By the way, does anyone know how the brake handwheel is rigged to the brakes?

 

Now on to the brake detailing.

 

John

 

Edit:  Forget about the solderable bogies.  I just found a load of whitemetal bogies with those PC coaches I mentioned.  

Edited January 26, 2020 by brossard

[brossard]

Well, today was spent detailing the underframe.  I got it done but was a trial in places:

 

 

I tested the underframe on the track and it all works - amazing!

There's a pair of vacuum cylinders and brake actuators.  My rigging isn't great, but the idea is to give the impression that it's there.  When I scrutinized the drawing I happened to notice that the pull rod from the LH cyclinder actuates the brakes on the RH bogie and, of course, vice versa.

The dynamo can be seen and some strip of 1mm phosphor bronze to represent the belt.

There's a battery box at the bottom and the pan for the voltage regulator can be seen at the top.

I discovered that I had goofed when positioning the bogies and that they were 1mm too far in, fouling the truss.  I've since pushed them out and it's all good now.

Here's a side view:

 

 

This is the battery box (Comet) side and there isn't a lot to see.

 

 

The opposite side provides a more pleasing "busy" look to it all.  Note the voltage regulator (Comet) sitting on its' pan and NOT centered.

 

John

Edited January 26, 2020 by brossard

[Market65]

Hi, brossard. What expert modelling here. The LMS GUV underframe really is looking much better now you've got the alterations to it complete. This is the kind of thing which I also like to have a go at doing, and will follow the rest of the progress with this model. One question is should the buffers have the top flattened to allow for the lower door on the ends?

 

All the best,

 

Market65.

[brossard]

Thanks Market65, it's great to give these old models a lease on life - provided the fundamentals are correct.

 

You are right, the tops of the buffers will need to be chopped off.

[brossard]

I thought I'd give some attention to the roof next:

 

 

It is a one piece moulding in clear plastic.  The ribs are too prominent and the ventilators are anemic.  I filed off the ventilators and filed down the ribs.  The windows were removed as I hope to install something better.   I then very carefully drilled holes and installed some whitemetal ventllators.  I've no idea of their provenance, they were in a coach bits box.  The roof was then primed.

 

Having completed the construction of the underframe, I gave it and the bogies a coat of primer.  I masked the couplings with plastiscene.

 

 

Things always look so much better primed I think.

 

John

Edited January 26, 2020 by brossard

[Mark Forrest]

Try MJT (Dart Castings) for cast bogie sides.

I've not used any of the Bill Bedford bogies, but they do look nice, might have to give them a try. Nice work fabricating the underframe trussing

[brossard]

Thanks Mark, should have known - I've used a lot of the MJT compensated bogies.  As I mentioned, I actually found a load of whitemetal bogies in a box of decaying PC coaches.

 

John

[Multiple identity account]

Great work mate!!!

[Andrew1974]

Looking good. Keep considering upgrading my model...need to stop thinking and start doing.

[PGC]

Thanks Market65, it's great to give these old models a lease on life - provided the fundamentals are correct.

 

You are right, the tops of the buffers will need to be chopped off.

 

Dave Franks of Lanarkshire Model Supplies supplies a buffer (his ref B016)  for the LMS CCT with clipped tops and bottom. I've bought a few as I have both a CCT and Lime GUV to upgrade!

 

Phil

[davefrk]

Hi Phil, thanks for the mention. I'm working on LMS coach buffers this month as I need some myself to replace the Bachmann buffers on the Porthole coaches. 

I believe most LMS bogie CCTs had an oval buffer, same buffer housing but different head to the passenger coaches.

 

Hope that helps

Dave.

[iak]

Smashing stuff...

Just shows how auld models can be enlivened and fettled up...

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

This is a good prompt for giving mine an upgrade. The difference made by substituting trussing with spearate electrical tackle for the monolithic lump is very striking.

... The wheels are Bachmann split axle - they went in the bin...

Were you closer than Quebec, I would be asking you to unbin them and making an arrangement to get them posted to me. While a proportion of them will never run true, those that do make ideal frictionless current collection wheelsets, all they need are pinpoint locators formed in phosphor bronze sheet added to bogies. Then the tail lamp can be lit with no incremental drag.

[brossard]

Thanks guys.  The buffers on this vehicle only have their tops lopped off, or so the drawing shows.  For CCTs, the tops and bottoms are truncated which I think is what Dave's are.  The only clear picture I have is of a van in earlier days with Midland style lining and round buffers (E&J's LMS Coaches of course).  Perhaps the buffer head diameter was increased later necessitating the crop?  It wasn't difficult to modify the Comet buffer head, but it is a tad risky. 

 

Dave, I should have mentioned it, but the coupling hooks are from your range.  I really like the integral back plate.  You'll be hearing from me again.

 

The split axle wheels are an indication of just how long I've had this thing.  I thought I'd purged all such long ago, but they do seem to crop up from time to time. 

 

John

[hmrspaul]

Thanks guys.  The buffers on this vehicle only have their tops lopped off, or so the drawing shows.  For CCTs, the tops and bottoms are truncated which I think is what Dave's are.  The only clear picture I have is of a van in earlier days with Midland style lining and round buffers (E&J's LMS Coaches of course).  Perhaps the buffer head diameter was increased later necessitating the crop?  It wasn't difficult to modify the Comet buffer head, but it is a tad risky. 

 

 

John

Quite correct, only clipped at the top and not anything like the CCT buffer head. http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/lmsparcels/e1003c1c2   http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/lmsparcels/e19dc1df2   http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/lmsparcels/e19f7fad5

 

Paul

[brossard]

Thanks for those references Paul.  I do have a question regarding those grey patches (for chalked messages?) on the doors.  I've seen many BR liveried coaches with them and the Lima model has them too.  When did LMS start putting grey patches?  I'm sort of doing mid 30s.

 

John

[Stanley Melrose]

Coachmann attended to one of these a couple of years ago and stated that the sides of the Lima model were not tall enough.  I recall he added some strips to bring the sides to the correct height and then used a Comet roof as the Lima one no longer fitted.  You may wish to bear this in mind.

 

HTH,

 

Stan

[davefrk]

Hi, Just looked through my books and had a look on Paul's photo site, The original buffer was an oval shape, not as big an oval as longer coaches like the twelve wheelers but definitely an oval, Essery/Jenkinson's first book shows the original buffer before the wee bit was cut along the top to better clear the dropflap, I can discern that the buffer face is quite curved but the angle of the photo makes the buffer look kinda round. Some vehicles on Paul's sight still have these buffers and one can see them on the drawing too. Later on vehicles received replacements which were a standard 18''LMS round coach buffer with a large cutaway at the top, again as seen in some of Paul's photos, a very useful site Paul....

The CCT buffers I do are for the 4 wheel CCT and are wagon based but I'm working on LMS coach buffers and may do the original to replace the ones on my bogie CCT. 

 

Dave Franks.

[brossard]

Thanks all. I'll check the height question.

 

John

[hmrspaul]

Hi, Just looked through my books and had a look on Paul's photo site, The original buffer was an oval shape, not as big an oval as longer coaches like the twelve wheelers but definitely an oval, Essery/Jenkinson's first book shows the original buffer before the wee bit was cut along the top to better clear the dropflap, I can discern that the buffer face is quite curved but the angle of the photo makes the buffer look kinda round. Some vehicles on Paul's sight still have these buffers and one can see them on the drawing too. Later on vehicles received replacements which were a standard 18''LMS round coach buffer with a large cutaway at the top, again as seen in some of Paul's photos, a very useful site Paul....

The CCT buffers I do are for the 4 wheel CCT and are wagon based but I'm working on LMS coach buffers and may do the original to replace the ones on my bogie CCT. 

 

Dave Franks.

 

Thanks for those references Paul.  I do have a question regarding those grey patches (for chalked messages?) on the doors.  I've seen many BR liveried coaches with them and the Lima model has them too.  When did LMS start putting grey patches?  I'm sort of doing mid 30s.

 

John

From Jenks and Essery appears that the LMS stopped applying this when they changed to the simplified livery. Both of the officials with complex livery have them, neither of the later officials with simple livery have them.

 

As to buffers, well I can't see any oval ones in the book, or on my site. There is a lovely photo of an oval buffer on the open CCT Plate 123. There is no need for clipping as the top is aligned with the top of the headstock. The end drawing shows the buffer head drawn the same as on the covered PMV. The one exception may be plate 111 but is that a smaller head without any clipping? The authors do point out that Plate 114 has much larger heads with a larger 'clipped' area.

 

Paul

[brossard]

Thanks for the info on grey panels.  Simplified lining started in 1932 so I think I'm safe in not doing them then.

 

John

[brossard]

Before painting the underframe black, I decided to have a go with my Archer bolt head transfers.  There's some fairly prominent detail that the Lima u/f is lacking as well as the brass bits I added:

 

 

The transfers are textured being made with resin I'm told.  The jury is out as to whether these will prove to be a waste of time or not.

 

John

Edited January 26, 2020 by brossard

[brossard]

The question was raised about the height of the model, so I've checked as best I can:

 

 

I removed some material from the bolster and from the unevenness of the bogies I have some more work to do.  The bogies are so low that the wheel flanges were rubbing on the floor so I had to remove material.

 

The drawing has the dimension from rail to buffer center as 3' 8"  or somewhere between 14 and 15mm.  That seems correct in the picture.  The drawing has a height to the top of the side of 10' 7 3/8" or ~ 43mm.  I make the model ~ 43.5mm so well within my tolerance.

 

John

Edited January 26, 2020 by brossard

[26power]

I think I read a few weeks ago on the information stand next to the preserved one at Bo'ness that it is the only remaining one?  A picture at: http://www.srpsmuseum.org.uk/10094.htm.  It is currently in the "shelter" between the coach and diesel loco sheds at Bo'ness, and therefore one side viewable to anyone visiting Bo'ness.  Further details at:  http://www.bkrailway.co.uk/

[brossard]

Boy that has seen better days.  The only one left?  Gasp!  Surely it should be restored.

 

John