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Dean Goods part 5 Ready for paint!

wenlock

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I've spent the last week or so adding all the detail components, this always takes longer than I expect, but I do find very satisfying. I used a photograph contained in Locomotives Illustrated of No 2467 as running circa 1905 as a reference. Socket type lamp irons from Laurie Griffin's range were fited and handrails were bent up from stainless steel wire. The dome, safety valve cover and chimney top were polished using abraisive wheels and cotton mops. (they are just balanced in position for the pictures at this stage!) I wasn't happy with the appearance of the tender rails, so I soldered some half round wire to them which I think has improved their appearance considerably. The kit provides some very nice brass fittings for the back head and these were polished prior to assembly.

 

 

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buffalo

...I've got a reversing lever for the cab, but I've not fitted it yet because I've no idea what colour it should be! If anyone could enlighten me about its colour along with that of the regulator in 1905 I'd be very pleased to hear!

I just dug out my 4mm Finney Dean Goods to compare the backhead with the 7mm version. Even the 4mm castings are very impressive. I noticed that I'd painted the reversing lever and regulator in red, and then remembered your ealier question.

 

I vaguely remember a discussion about the lever colours a few years ago but haven't been able to find it yet. I think the conclusion was that red levers were a later Collett era thing. Most earlier photos show what looks like clean/polished steel for regulators and both screw and lever reversers. I'll have to redo mine when I get back to it...

 

Nick

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Mikkel
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Gulp, that is one very nice Dean Goods, Dave. Congrats on getting it this far. And that's what I call a polished brass dome you've made, very shiny and belle epoque!

 

I'm on the lookout for a decent looking Edwardian loco crew to finish it off.

 

How about something from this range - not my scale but I've always fancied the look of them, and some are right hand drive as far as I can see: http://borderminiatures.com/pages/BMFootplatecrew1.html

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wenlock
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I just dug out my 4mm Finney Dean Goods to compare the backhead with the 7mm version. Even the 4mm castings are very impressive. I noticed that I'd painted the reversing lever and regulator in red, and then remembered your ealier question.I vaguely remember a discussion about the lever colours a few years ago but haven't been able to find it yet. I think the conclusion was that red levers were a later Collett era thing. Most earlier photos show what looks like clean/polished steel for regulators and both screw and lever reversers. I'll have to redo mine when I get back to it...Nick

Thanks Nick, I'll paint mine a nice burnished gun metal colour, some of my other locos have red levers so I'll have to redo those.

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wenlock
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Gulp, that is one very nice Dean Goods, Dave. Congrats on getting it this far. And that's what I call a polished brass dome you've made, very shiny and belle epoque!

 

 

 

How about something from this range - not my scale but I've always fancied the look of them, and some are right hand drive as far as I can see: http://borderminiatures.com/pages/BMFootplatecrew1.html

Hi Mikkel, Belle
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Mikkel
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Hi again Dave oh yes I had forgotten about the Andrew Stadden figures, they are fantastic. The Churchward figure alone is almost worth building a whole layout around! I look forward to seeing some of them adapted.

 

I agree about the Edwardian era as the pinnacle og aesthetic design. The "Armstrong" 4-4-0 must be one of the most beautiful machines ever made! Any plans for one of those? Not even sure there is a 7mm kit for it...?

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wenlock
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Hi again Dave oh yes I had forgotten about the Andrew Stadden figures, they are fantastic. The Churchward figure alone is almost worth building a whole layout around! I look forward to seeing some of them adapted.

 

I agree about the Edwardian era as the pinnacle og aesthetic design. The "Armstrong" 4-4-0 must be one of the most beautiful machines ever made! Any plans for one of those? Not even sure there is a 7mm kit for it...?

Hi Mikkel yes the Armstrong class are beautiful looking locos, there is a rather fabulous kit on the market but it sure ain't cheap!

http://www.modernoutline.co.uk/modern_outline_012.htm

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wenlock
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Very nice, but scroll down to the next picture. The River class is my favourite.

 

Nick

I have to agree with you Nick, the River's have long been my favourite class of loco. I think there used to be a kit available from someone called Peter Kay, but I've never seen one!
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Mikkel
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Here's a Peter K River in 4mm scale (built by the late Dave Perkins) which I owned for a while. I didn't know he also did a 7mm version.  

 

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Some of his kits are still available at the Kemilway site, although mostly 4mm: http://www.kemilway.com/peter-k.html

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wenlock
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Here's a Peter K River in 4mm scale (built by the late Dave Perkins) which I owned for a while. I didn't know he also did a 7mm version.  

 

gallery_738_870_20307.jpg

 

Some of his kits are still available at the Kemilway site, although mostly 4mm: http://www.kemilway.com/peter-k.html

Hi Mikkel, what a lovely looking model! I'm amazed you no longer own it, I'd have thought it would have been the perfect loco for pulling a local passenger service out of Farthing.

 

I've been doing some "digging" to find out more about the elusive 7mm kit and come across this review. http://www.raymondwalley.com/loco/gwr/river.html It sounds like Peter Kay was envolved in the project, but the reviewer doesnt seem very impressed with either Mr Kay or the the kit! In the pictures the model looks fine to me, unfortunately the review ends before the kit is finished. I wish a kit designer with the experience of Martin Finney or Malcolm Mitchell would bring out a River, I would be first in the queue to get my hands on one!

 

Best wishes

 

Dave

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Miss Prism

I'm planing on painting the loco in the 1903 livery. Fully lined dark green body, indian red frames, wheels and splasher sides along with lots of polished copper and brass work.

There seems to be a long-standing unresolved question as to whether splasher fronts changed to green in 1903. The late and much-respected Dave Perkins (see 4mm River class above) was of the view that "In 1903, all that had been red above the footplate became green and all springs black." A fuller version of his view is given in the gwr-elist, December 2001. Bob Vaughan cites the same livery (green splasher fronts, black springs) in his 5 October 2001 photo of the NRM 1903 depiction of City of Truro. Unfortunately, the url of that photo is now lost.

 

GWR Modelling does not mention this 1903 matter, but I've been conscious it should, but most of the source material (Dave Perkins now being dead) is lost, and I'm not sure how to proceed, other than NRM probably knowing what it was doing.

 

Great Western Way, is, as usual, less than helpful on this matter!

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wenlock
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Hi Miss P, I've been in discussion with Nick (Buffalo) regarding the 1903 livery. Hopefully he may pop in and add his thoughts later. I'm basing my model on a picture of 2467 that appears in Locomotives Illustrated. To my eye the frames in this picture look as if they have a dark edge and are lined, leading to the conclusion that they are Indian Red. However the frames look as if they are a different colour to the splashers, leading to the conclusion that they are probably green.

 

Nick and I were discussing the possibility that there was a "transition" livery used between 1903 and 1906 where the frames and wheels were in Indian Red, but areas above the footplate including the splashers were in green. The change to using Great Western in full on the tender, rather than the monogramme would also have happened at this transition date.

 

I've just re looked at my response to N15 and noticed that I've incorrectly put Indian Red for the splashers!

 

I'd be interested to hear your and others thoughts about this transition livery.

 

Dave

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buffalo

Ah, the 1903-6 livery again...

One of the best examples from recent discussions on here is Mikes photo of a contemporary painting of No 40 as built in 1906 with green splashers, black springs and single panel tender.

 

I'm fairly certain that the photo of 2467 also shows this livery and, as it is in near ex-works condition and has socket lamp irons, is unlikely to be much later than 1904. The only problem I have with it is that the splashers appear to be a lighter tone than the cab side sheets and tender (though not the boiler). They are, however, lighter than the red parts below the running plate. Maybe a result of partial repainting or just different reflective properties of the surfaces?

 

Thinking of CoT, there's a rather dark photo of her, as built in 1903, in Russell's vol 2 (fig36). I wonder if this is the same as mentioned by Bob Vaughan? You could certainly argue for black springs with polished mounting whatsits (are they a rubber shock absorbing bush?) and green splashers. The latter do look closer to the boiler tone than that of the frames. The only difference is the monogrammed tender, though that also appears to have black springs with polished whatsits.

 

Nick

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wenlock
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I do like the term "polished whatsits" and shall be using it from now on Nick!

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Miss Prism
I think Mikkel's thread on wagon red proved it is nearly if not completely impossible, on a monochrome pic, to distinguish between what was probably a comparatively light red and wagon grey. That difficulty applies just as much if not more so in my opinion between trying to distinguish between GWR green, which was dark, and frame red, which current thinking seems to point to being a far darker shade than a modern vanilla 'red oxide'. For cleaned/oiled surfaces on locos, we are especially at the mercy of reflected light.

 

Dave's 2467 pic is post-1906 (GWW gives the same pic, denoting it "about 1910"), because of the GREAT crest WESTERN lettering on the tender and the absence of polished splasher beading, and thus I would suggest the frames (yes, lined) and wheels, both on loco and tender, are black, and that splasher sides are green. On the polished steel whatsits on the tender, I don't think they contained any rubber, because rubber technology was up to it at that time - I think they are no more than load-spreading washers for the locking nuts on the shackles.

 

In other words, my guess is that there is no Indian Red anywhere on Dave's 2467.

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wenlock
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Hi again Miss P, I agree with you that trying to access colour from black and white pictures is going to be highly subjective. However I'm convinced that the tender frames in my picture of 2467 show a dark line around their edge and this would not be the case if the frames were black. If the picture is around 1910, would the loco still have the early socket type lamp irons? These are very obvious in the photograph. If we assume that the loco is in the post 1906 livery with green splashers and black frames, wouldn't the lap irons have been changed as part of the repaint? I've been led to believe that the socket lamps were phased out around 1902, if that was the case why is the loco still fitted with them 8 years later.

 

All very confusing, oh for a colour picture to look at!

 

Dave

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Miss Prism

Dave - personally, I don't detect any dark line around the frame edge.

 

I agree it would be logical for the lamp irons to have been upgraded contemporaneously with any repaint, but we know the perils of trying to apply logic to history, and I'll pass on the socket lamp iron question - Nick is the expert on that matter.

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buffalo

I'm not so negative about interpreting colours within a single photograph. If we see tonal variation it comes from different reflective properties, different angles of reflection, shadows, and so on, but also from differences in colour. In many cases I think we can be quite confident that differences in tone represent differences in colour.

 

As to the photo of 2467, I'm with Dave on this. Jack Slinn's caption in the original GWW is nonsense. The caption in the new GWW is just confused. Although the text on the same page does include a brief mention of the 1903 tender livery, elsewhere they stick to the old wisdom of the 1906 change.

 

Looking at the photo under a magnifier, it is clear that the rear tender step nearest the camera has a dark line around the edge with a lighter line inside. The main body of the frames is a lighter colour than the dark edging. In other words, and within the constraints of current knowledge, the frames are red with black edging and an orange line inside the black.

 

2467 appears to be in near ex-works condition. It was built with an S4 boiler in 1896 and received an S2 in 1913. The RCTS doesn't list every boiler change, only changes of type, so it's a good bet that it received at least one, perhaps two, boiler changes between these dates. Although there are examples of socket lamp irons surving to the end of the decade, I think it very unlikely that in a major overhaul as late as 1908/9 they would forget to change the lamp irons.

 

Does anyone have full boiler change details?

 

Nick

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Miss Prism

I still can't see any dark border on the frame even with a loupe, but I'll go along with that observation, so are you saying that the GREAT crest WESTERN and the painting of splasher beadings started in 1903?

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buffalo

...are you saying that the GREAT crest WESTERN and the painting of splasher beadings started in 1903?

 

Yes, though whether it all happened at once, I'm not so sure. For example, if the CoT as built photo does show green splashers and black springs then perhaps this preceded the tender livery change. On the other hand, she may have been coupled to the first available tender and that happened to have the older monogram livery...

 

Nick

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Buckjumper
You could certainly argue for black springs with polished mounting whatsits (are they a rubber shock absorbing bush?) and green splashers. The latter do look closer to the boiler tone than that of the frames. The only difference is the monogrammed tender, though that also appears to have black springs with polished whatsits.

 

The polished wotsits were inverted cast cups which protected the rubber pads of the spring hangers from oil contamination. It was one of the ideas Holden took with him to Stratford from Swindon. Stratford cast them in iron and painted them black, but Swindon's were obviously a bit more bling.

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Miss Prism

Thanks BJ. Rubber it is, then. Not only bling, but high tech bling. I guess we would call them shock-absorbers in modern parlance.

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buffalo

Thanks for confirming that. Must take a closer look next time I'm passing one. I also note the alternative spelling, maybe a regional thing... ;-)

 

Nick

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wenlock
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Thanks for confirming that. Must take a closer look next time I'm passing one. I also note the alternative spelling, maybe a regional thing... ;-)Nick

And to think I've spent all this time thinking wotsits were cheesy!

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Buckjumper

I also note the alternative spelling, maybe a regional thing... ;-)

 

It's the Swedey variant ;)

 

 

And to think I've spent all this time thinking wotsits were cheesy!

 

Cheesy Wotsits or Swedey wotsits...

 

Moving swiftly on; I'm surprised the GW didn't house the springs within the cab inside boxes over the splashers like other companies. Presumably there wasn't enough movement in them as they compressed for the crew to catch a finger or anything else as they leaned over... *eyes water and toes curl at the thought*

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