Permanent way lineside fencing posts?

[signalmaintainer]

As the title indictates, I need advice regarding open lineside fencing. I've been thinking of using rounded toothpicks for posts; they're a good dimension and plentiful. However, in real life they'd be more expensive due to the lathing needed compared with square posts. Square posts are easy enough with stripwood and would certainly be easier to drill holed into for fence wire.

 

More importantly, though, which type of post would have been more commonly seen there in the middle part of the last century? From what I can gather, the posts were spaced about 6 feet apart, which seems a good distance for 1:76 anyway, even if it is a bit too short.

 

(And yes, I have some stone fencing which will be installed in the field as soon as I make the molds, and pour and color the plaster. Have to make a box for the molds first, though!)

[Kris]

Lots of posts were concrete by this time (judging by the posts on disused lines I have seen). These were square (or close enough). Given that I have seen these on lines that were closed in the early sixties it suggests to me that they would have been used for some time before this. If you are modelling the southern lines I would expect to see more concrete posts (SR had a thing about cast concrete). Spacing on these seems to be closer to 8ft with a metal spacing strip at the mid point.

[Fat Controller]

As the title indictates, I need advice regarding open lineside fencing. I've been thinking of using rounded toothpicks for posts; they're a good dimension and plentiful. However, in real life they'd be more expensive due to the lathing needed compared with square posts. Square posts are easy enough with stripwood and would certainly be easier to drill holed into for fence wire.

 

More importantly, though, which type of post would have been more commonly seen there in the middle part of the last century? From what I can gather, the posts were spaced about 6 feet apart, which seems a good distance for 1:76 anyway, even if it is a bit too short.

 

(And yes, I have some stone fencing which will be installed in the field as soon as I make the molds, and pour and color the plaster. Have to make a box for the molds first, though!)

I don't recollect ever seeing round fence posts next to a railway. If there were, they wouldn't have been turned, merely cut from appropriate sized bits of coppiced wood- the fencing manufacturer near us uses this method for chestnut posts these days, as do the people who supply stakes for our vineyard.

Most posts I've seen on railways (prior to the widespread use of steel palisade fences in the last decade or so) have used either treated square section wood (about 4") or cast concrete posts. I presume the wood came from the same sources as that used for sleepers, as there would have been quite a lot spare each time a trunk was sawn for them.

[Kris]

As a extra thought. It's not unusual to see old rail being used at the end of fencing runs as the post. This was braced and used to keep the wire taught.

[The Stationmaster]

Concrete posts seem to have been a 1950s/60s thing as replacements for post & wire lineside fencing although the Southern might well have been at it for longer. Concrete posts are tapered on two, opposite, faces; Ratio used to do them in 4mm scale.

 

Prior to that timber was used - and I've never seen anything by square in section. With plain wire - it has long been illegal to use barbed wire for boundary fences in Britain (alas).

[darren01]

HI

Here is the Ratio cat no, for concrete post ;419 Concrete fence posts, Gates and signs.

Hope this helps

All the best

Darren

[Bernard Lamb]

As a extra thought. It's not unusual to see old rail being used at the end of fencing runs as the post. This was braced and used to keep the wire taught.

You can even to this day find lengths of ex GWR broad gauge bridge rail in use as fence posts.

Bernard

[signalmaintainer]

Thanks for all the helpful replies! So square wooden posts it is, with some rail-made types thrown in for variety where appropriate.

[Kris]

You can even to this day find lengths of ex GWR broad gauge bridge rail in use as fence posts.

Bernard

 

 

That's mainly what I was thinking of. I didn't realise it was bridge rail though. Good example of reusing and recycling there.

 

 

[Penlan]

....... Square posts ...... fence wire.

......... stone fencing which will be installed in the field.....

Your OP states for wire, it is square post all the way, except in some wild places where they may well use small diameter trunks. BTW Most wood used in late Victorian through to the 1920's was Baltic Pine - some light Railways had half round sleepers too (Bishops Castle Rly for instance).

 

TIC - There are also stone or slate post's, as I see you are thinking of using these, with wire through them, in the wilder parts of Wales mainly.

 

Mention of the Bridge Rail for fencing - I have a length in my garden originally found in a house being used as a lintle -most rail sizes have been used for posts, in Newlyn there are a lot of post and rail fences around the boundary of the Penlee quarry, the post are the remains of the light weight Penlee Quarry rails,

 

Mention has been made of post and rail and that in general the posts were square, but not all posts were, especially on the LNWR, these in the photos below, look almost to be ex. sleepers. (There is an etched kit for this style, I had one, OK for level fencing and plenty of solder, but otherwise - I passed mine on). Here's a couple of photo's showing the style. These would appear to have the post at 6' c/c (top photo) and 8' c/c (bottom photo)'

 

I've tried to replicate this with Ratio fencing by first filing flat the horizontal bars (they seem to be 'D' shaped), gluing plastikard strip to either side of the posts and squaring off the top of the post. At least being plastic it's fairly easy to get the posts vertical with the 'horizontal' rails following the up and downs of the landscape. Don't forget the vertical small 'strengtheners' go on the railway side of the fence - the fence owners side, just like your garden fencing.

 

 

[signalmaintainer]

Thanks, Penlan, and especially for the pics!

 

I should have clarified "stone fencing." I meant dry stack walls, with wooden post and wire fencing elsewhere.

[28XX]

GW fencing was often made from rejected sleepers slit in half lengthways. Again, reuse / recycle why are we having to learn how to do this a second time??

[Penlan]

Thanks, ..I should have clarified "stone fencing." I meant dry stack walls, with wooden post and wire fencing elsewhere.

I did indicate TIC(Tongue in Cheek)

 

But I did understand what you were really trying to say, honestly.

[R A Watson]

Sorry for the long gap before replying but I knew I had some pictures on this subject and could not find them, only today I realised I had not yet scanned in the original prints, but here they are now.

 

Firstly I must point out that all pictures were taken on official E S R business (a fencing survey in fact) and with the knowledge and permission of the farmer and therefore are not "trespass shots"

 

The line is fenced in traditional G W R manner with square wooden posts and bridge rail strainer and intermediate posts. All fence wire is fixed to the field side of the posts which allowed the railway to claim an extra few inches of land and increase greatly the acreage of land to be accounted against by the financial wizards, it may be only a few inches wide but it's miles long and on both sides of the line.

 

The first shot shows the general view from the field side with wooden posts either side of of a double strainer, these will be set at an angle to each other where a bend or corner occurs, note the wire (what remains of it) stapled on the outer side of the posts. One point for concrete posts is that the wire is fixed in a similar manner with the hole in the post normally aligned at right angles to the track and a staple made of a short length of wire folded into a U shape pased around the wire then pushed through the hole with the ends then folded back against the post to stop it coming out. The main fence wire does not go through the hole as is normally seen with the Ratio posts on most layouts.

 

The second picture is a closer view of the strainer arrangement showing how the three rail components are bolted together and also that the fence wire is terminated on long eye bolts which allow the adjustment of wire tension.

 

Pictures 3 and 4 are of intermediate rail posts illustrating that they do not have to be in a specific allignment to the track centre line.

 

I included picture 4 as a detail just for those who may wish to bring the fencing and scenery closer together.

 

Hope this helps somebody

 

Wally

[signalmaintainer]

Superb, Wally! Many thanks!

[Jules]

I've been out fence post spotting today!

 

Well, actually I happened to spot these while out for a stroll this afternoon. They are on the old S&D just north of Midford.

 

The first one is actually on top of a large skew bridge where a minor road crosses the line. I assume all the 'gubbins' is to tension the wires?

 

 

 

The second is a concrete post at the bottom of the embankment about a 1/4 mile further on.

 

 

 

Lastly, another one of the fancy jobbies.

 

 

 

Hope they are of some use/interest.

[Kris]

Those S and D metal ones are far fancier than the GWR ones.

[TREEMENDUS]

Great photos, good for groundwork reference too.

 

 

Ant

[Old Gringo]

Hi, I'm a new member and this is my first post, so apologies if protocol is incorrect.

With reference to the earlier post by "Penlan" (dated 11th October) regarding LNWR Post & rail fencing and accompanied by some superb period photographs, I can add some extra detail concerning the measurements and a book title that has some drawings.

In Jack Nelson's, LNWR Portrayed, published by Peco, 1975, there are drawings on page 183 of the standard types of lineside fencing employed by the LNWR. Figure 17-5 illustrates the standard post and rail variety with a scale-bar beneath at approximately 5mm to one foot. I believe that the woodwork was produced at Crewe, perhaps from old sleepers as Penlan suggests and the sizes of the main posts (7" x 5" x 8ft.) is very close to a trimmed down pre-group timber (10 x 5 x 9ft.).

The measurements in Jack's drawing are very close to an example of the fencing that I discovered (and measured in 2004) next to a closed section of LNWR railway line in West Staffordshire. The main posts measured 7" x 5" and were set on 8 foot centres. They had been pre-drilled with 5.5" x 1.75" rounded slots to take five rails, each measuring 5" x 1.5". On all the posts measured, the slots were set at regular intervals: The first slot was 6" from the top of the post, then 10.5", 7.5", 5.5", 5.5", leaving a gap of around 5" between the bottom rail and ground level. I estimate that the posts would be set probably 2' 6" into the ground, giving the 8ft length quoted above.

On 8 foot centres the distance between the main posts was 7' 6" and two vertical supporting posts of 3" x 3" timber were added on 2' 6" centres between the main posts. It appears that these were not set into the ground and only provided strength to the rails. Studying LNWR photographs, it appears that these strengthening posts were usually applied to the side of the fence facing away from the railway - but not always! Also, from photos of the WCML around the period of the Great War, it seems that new fencing had only one of these 3" x 3" supports between each pair of main posts set on 4 foot centres, perhaps as an economy measure.

I have built a few 4" long pieces of 4mm scale LNWR fencing using the measurements from 'basswood' and if I could find them I'd post a photo!!

Hope this helps. Regards, John

[panniertank]

I presume when you say boundary fences with regard to using barbed wire, you are refering ONLY to railway boundaries?

 

Concrete posts seem to have been a 1950s/60s thing as replacements for post & wire lineside fencing although the Southern might well have been at it for longer. Concrete posts are tapered on two, opposite, faces; Ratio used to do them in 4mm scale.

 

Prior to that timber was used - and I've never seen anything by square in section. With plain wire - it has long been illegal to use barbed wire for boundary fences in Britain (alas).

[R A Watson]

You will see that in my earlier photos there is a considerable amount of barbed wire (somewhat newer than the original railway wire), all of which is the property of the farmer. He does not seem to worry about the "damage" that could be done to trespassers, or his cows, who may encounter the wire.

 

Of more concern to us at the time was the electrified single strand which hurts even more as you try to move from one side to the other.

 

Wally

[The Stationmaster]

I presume when you say boundary fences with regard to using barbed wire, you are refering ONLY to railway boundaries?

 

 

 

No - one of the Highways Acts prohibits its use next to a highway if it is deemed (by any user of the highway) to present a risk to people or animals.

 

 

 

[R A Watson]

Yet another late intervention from me, but I have just returned from the annual P W Dept Christmas dinner at Cranmore and over Friday night somebody littered the railway by dumping four inches (We stll have traditional English snow, not the modern E E C compliant decimal rubbish) of white stuff all over the track. This lead to a need to walk the line to ensure it was safe for Reindeer traffic as the gent in the red coat and stick on beard was scheduled to be travelling this weekend. During this inspection it was aparent that this was the ideal tiime to take some more shots of the fencing without the grass (or anything else) in the way. The attached may assist someone with their efforts, please note the third shot is of a solitary concrete post amongst the timber ones.

 

Seasons Greetings to all our readers,

 

Wally