what can be used as pre grouping wagon loads

[Anglian]

All sorts of timber including complete tree trunks, cut stone for example mill-wheels, even specialist loads things like submarine batteries, ships propellers and machined parts, were all moved by rail. Cereals in sacks, paper, building materials, animal feed, perishables like fruit – anything that goes by road now probably went by rail prior to 1923 if it had to be moved any distance.

Edited August 18, 2017 by Anglian

[Guy Rixon]

All sorts of timber including complete tree trunks, cut stone for example mill-wheels, even specialist loads things like submarine batteries, ships propellers and machined parts, were all moved by rail. Cereals in sacks, paper, building materials, animal feed, perishables like fruit – anything that goes by road now probably went by rail prior to 1923 if it had to be moved any distance.

 

 

An excellent general principle, but one should beware of weird exceptions. For example...

 

Much fruit and veg is grown in Kent and London is a huge market for it. One might guess that SECR trains, passenger and goods, would be awash with produce. In fact, many growers preferred to have their produce carted into central London. I think that cheap carriage by railway was too slow and prompt carriage was too expensive.

[sjrixon]

For Coke, someone told me to use ash. Either from a BBQ or a fire.

[Poggy1165]

Railways moved almost anything, including, literally, elephants. I suppose the real answer to the question is it depends exactly where your model is supposed to be. A lot of us model obscure branch lines where the main traffics would be a) coal, and b) agricultural supplies and products. But even in so simple a case, the wagons to be used may vary. In some parts of the country, for example, most coal was shipped by sea to a local port and brought from there in either local company wagons (or later common users) or POs of the coal merchant or local utility - e.g. gasworks.

 

If you model an industrial or urban setting, or a main line, then I would suggest a much wider range of traffic is viable. You might, for example, have a foundry or engineering works at your station, or on the other hand there might be a cattle market or an abattoir. So maybe the first step is a theoretical one. It might even relate to what goods handling facilities you have. Not much use in delivering a darned big casting if you've only got a feeble one ton crane with which to (theoretically) unload it. OTOH, if you've got a main line that leads somewhere like Sheffield or Birmingham, then darned big castings might pass by on a regular basis. You just need the special wagons to carry them.

Edited August 22, 2017 by Poggy1165

[ChrisN]

Coal,

We burnt coal at home until my parents installed a closed door burner which I think took anthracite, it was briquettes anyway.  The coal I remember was small lumps and black, and was sort of roundish.  When I went to my mum's cousin's they burnt coal, which was bigger lumps with flat sides and glossy.

[Fat Controller]

Coal,

We burnt coal at home until my parents installed a closed door burner which I think took anthracite, it was briquettes anyway.  The coal I remember was small lumps and black, and was sort of roundish.  When I went to my mum's cousin's they burnt coal, which was bigger lumps with flat sides and glossy.

The roundish lumps sound as though they could be one of the 'patent fuels', such as Coalite or Phurnacite. In later years, these were produced industrially, to use the finer material produced when coal was extracted mechanically, but their origins lay in domestically produced things like 'pele', a mixture of coal dust with a binding agent (usually mud or manure), shaped into balls. 

[Northroader]

Just talking about coal, in a South Wales context, the coalfield split into two areas, from about Neath eastwards was bituminous, and westwards was anthracite. The bituminous was a softer coal, and fascinating to watch as it burnt, swelling, becoming spongy, tar oozing out, and burning fiercely. Greatly valued as a 'steam' coal, and noteworthy that the GWR tried not to do mechanical handling of it at their plants as it was quite friable, although it was still tipped at the ports when being exported, mainly for maritime use, before oil firing came in post ww1. It was also popular as a house coal, but was a premium fuel. Anthracite was quite different, being harder, and shinier. It seemed it was produced in smaller sizes,such as grains. These were problematic in transporting, as there was a tendency to run, and wagons had to have any gaps in the doors filled with handfuls of straw. It was valued as being slow burning, so needing less tending in furnaces, and quoted as being a favourite in the brewing industry.

Back in Victorian times, these were mined in quantity, as times progressed,there was an awareness that more could be done in claiming smaller pieces, and patent fuel plants using this bonded into briquettes, of the ovoid/ phurnacite type, were introduced. These were like an egg shape which you could grip in one hand. With the introduction of electrical power stations, the fine 'dust' previously rejected could be burnt on the grates, and traffic in "duff" started, and by post ww2 this was a large element of coal traffic.

I'm not so familiar with the northern coal fields, my understanding is the East Midlands /S. Yorkshire area had a lower bitumen and higher ash content.

[John_Miles]

Just talking about coal, in a South Wales context, the coalfield split into two areas, from about Neath eastwards was bituminous, and westwards was anthracite. The bituminous was a softer coal, and fascinating to watch as it burnt, swelling, becoming spongy, tar oozing out, and burning fiercely. Greatly valued as a 'steam' coal, and noteworthy that the GWR tried not to do mechanical handling of it at their plants as it was quite friable, although it was still tipped at the ports when being exported, mainly for maritime use, before oil firing came in post ww1. It was also popular as a house coal, but was a premium fuel. Anthracite was quite different, being harder, and shinier. It seemed it was produced in smaller sizes,such as grains. These were problematic in transporting, as there was a tendency to run, and wagons had to have any gaps in the doors filled with handfuls of straw. It was valued as being slow burning, so needing less tending in furnaces, and quoted as being a favourite in the brewing industry.

Back in Victorian times, these were mined in quantity, as times progressed,there was an awareness that more could be done in claiming smaller pieces, and patent fuel plants using this bonded into briquettes, of the ovoid/ phurnacite type, were introduced. These were like an egg shape which you could grip in one hand. With the introduction of electrical power stations, the fine 'dust' previously rejected could be burnt on the grates, and traffic in "duff" started, and by post ww2 this was a large element of coal traffic.

I'm not so familiar with the northern coal fields, my understanding is the East Midlands /S. Yorkshire area had a lower bitumen and higher ash content.

Yes northern coals were pretty much as you describe although coal varied quite a lot from seam to seam and pit to pit. Some areas produced really good gas coal, others steam coal etc so you could see loaded coal trains passing each other and Derbyshire / Nottinghamshire coal was sent as far as South Wales because some of it was good for gas production. Conversely anthracite wagons from South Wales could be seen anywhere in England and Wales (Scotland had its own anthracite). The reason anthracite was used in brewing and the food industry is that it was low in arsenic and so the beer etc wasn't poisonous. Northern coal is hard and shiny, you can tip it and it doesn't break much. That said in the Wigan area there was a coal called cannel which I understand was more like wax and could be lit with a match.

Patent fuels were sometimes made in briquettes which found favour with some shipping companies because they when they were carefully stacked there were almost no voids so getting more coal into the ship's bunker.

Products such as Coalite were said to be good for the environment and that may have been true at the point of use but it certainly wasn't at the point of production

[Poggy1165]

I believe cannel was useful in gas-making, especially when light was as important as heat.

 

A bit back I bought a GC document which proved (much to my surprise) that the odd coal train ran eastward over Woodhead. So particular types of Lancashire coal must have been useful even in coal-rich Yorkshire. Though most of the traffic naturally went t'other way.

[NCB]

For coke, try Woodland Scenics cinder ballast. Comes in various grades. Looks about the right texture to me.

[Fat Controller]

Yes northern coals were pretty much as you describe although coal varied quite a lot from seam to seam and pit to pit. Some areas produced really good gas coal, others steam coal etc so you could see loaded coal trains passing each other and Derbyshire / Nottinghamshire coal was sent as far as South Wales because some of it was good for gas production. Conversely anthracite wagons from South Wales could be seen anywhere in England and Wales (Scotland had its own anthracite). The reason anthracite was used in brewing and the food industry is that it was low in arsenic and so the beer etc wasn't poisonous. Northern coal is hard and shiny, you can tip it and it doesn't break much. That said in the Wigan area there was a coal called cannel which I understand was more like wax and could be lit with a match.

Patent fuels were sometimes made in briquettes which found favour with some shipping companies because they when they were carefully stacked there were almost no voids so getting more coal into the ship's bunker.

Products such as Coalite were said to be good for the environment and that may have been true at the point of use but it certainly wasn't at the point of production

I'd understood that the reason anthracite was popular for things like hop drying, malting, brewing and horticulure/ market gardening was that it was low in various elements, such as sulphur , which produced off-flavours; particularly important in the first two, where the hot gases from combustion passed through the hops and malt. It doesn't burn well without a forced-draught (enclosed) fire, so the coal merchants of the western part of the coalfield imported bitumenous coal from places such as Maesteg. At the same time, the concessionary coal for current and retired miners in the area from the Amman  Valley to the Gwendraeth was brought in from further east.

[Caley Jim]

The Royal Navy preferred Welsh coal (presumably steam coal) which resulted in extensive traffic north during WWI, when the Navy was based in Scapa Flo, and is why there was a train of Welsh coal empties in the up loop at Quintinshill.

 

Jim

[Northroader]

There was a considerable build up in traffic between different collieries as the larger ones developed from merely digging coal and screening it to graded sizes, to having "washeries" added, a large concrete conical structure, the graded coal could be introduced into these with coal from different places, and swirled around in water to thoroughly mix it, gaining a desirable mix of characteristics. One coal person described it to me as "blending, just the same as tea or whisky "

[John_Miles]

The Royal Navy preferred Welsh coal (presumably steam coal) which resulted in extensive traffic north during WWI, when the Navy was based in Scapa Flo, and is why there was a train of Welsh coal empties in the up loop at Quintinshill.

 

Jim

 

They preferred it because it was almost smokeless, produced less ash and gave more heat per ton. When you look at the traffic statistics, before WW1, South Wales was the go to place for high quality energy for ships.

[Penlan]

South Wales was the go to place for high quality energy for ships.

That's the trouble with GO places, eventually they are Gone   ......

[Fat Controller]

They preferred it because it was almost smokeless, produced less ash and gave more heat per ton. When you look at the traffic statistics, before WW1, South Wales was the go to place for high quality energy for ships.

Some of the South Wales ports had coal hoists at the entrance locks, so that ships sailing from Bristol could take on bunker coal without having to take up precious space at the quays within the dock proper. 

[Buhar]

One train load I've seen mentioned in Glasgow was back-fill for worked-out quarries, probably building waste.  As towns grew, the areas where local stone had been quarried became desirable for housing, factories or parks.  This probably applied anywhere where stone was the principal building material and also maybe where sand or gravel was extracted (although these were often low-lying and so maybe not so useful).  It's the perfect job for a simple open, I think the Midland had such a vehicle.

[relaxinghobby]

 

 

Pre-grouping loads

Small town Electric power station under the chimney with it's own siding,10 wagon loads of coal a week? Almost one whole train just for the power station and wagon loads of ash, clinker and grit to be removed for road making?

Photo from Bygone Caterham by Jean Tooke 1988 Pub Phillimore & Co Ltd

[Poggy1165]

A gas works produces similar traffic, plus tank wagons to take away by-products. And that's an industry that produces coke IIRC, through roasting coal. Every town, more or less, had a gas works, even some quite small ones. Big towns and cities had immense gas works. Rev. Peter Denny wrote articles in the RM donkey's years ago about modelling gas works, and those articles are well worth finding if anyone is interested as the story of gas is complex and the method of making changed - during "our" period I think.

[Caley Jim]

If you want to see a small town gasworks come to Biggar. Put 'Biggar gasworks' into Google. Can't seem to paste the link on my phone.

 

Jim

[Penlan]

..... Rev. Peter Denny wrote articles in the RM donkey's years ago about modelling gas works,....

Would that be 'All Gas & Gaiters'  

 

Geoff Williams on his model of Aylesbury (LNWR) had a gas works too,

and Geoff had worked in the Gas Industry all his life,

so he was fully aware of all it's subtleties for a model.

Edited September 2, 2017 by Penlan

[John_Miles]

Would that be 'All Gas & Gaiters'  

 

Geoff Williams on his model of Aylesbury (LNWR) had a gas works too,

and Geoff had worked in the Gas Industry all his life,

so he was fully aware of all it's subtleties for a model.

 

Sandy

 

You were awake at 8.19 am. Is something wrong. Is there a shortage of beer in Mousehole?

[Northroader]

There is a thread running on small gasworks traffic herehttp://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/102002-small-town-gasworks/page-2

[Penlan]

You were awake at 8.19 am. Is something wrong. Is there a shortage of beer in Mousehole?

John, are you assuming I was up and about early, rather than another late night.   

Don't forget this was the morning following the Wedding Reception I didn't know I was going to* - I thought it was a small finger Buffet, it transpired to be something, and bit more...... 

All I'm saying is there was unlimited wine flowing, and I'm sure I saw a Battleship go by 

 

* No, not mine, a friend in the Village, though I didn't know we were held in such high regard,

perhaps the invite should have gone somewhere else?

[Penlan]

 Is there a shortage of beer in Mousehole?

No shortages, and because the 'Beer Buyer' for The Legion got his quantities mixed up on his last order, we have extra 'Bass', 'London Pride' and 'Rev. James' to drink through in a short time, so they are all at £2.75 a pint at present, we should have reached stock equilibrium by Monday night.  We have 'Wicklow' BOB ready for Wednesday, my Birthday Pasties night too - we have a Chilli Beef version on order, they also have a medium to thick (but not goo'ie) gravy in them, we have had tasting sessions   

 

We also have 'Rev. James' bitter coming for October 7th - Big Party night in the Legion with an Irish band, loads of locals and about 20 people coming down from the Cardiff area. That could be the start of another late night.....

 

Betty Stogs is the normal pump beer in the Legion, and it sells well,

but we have two other pumps for the Guest Beers..

Edited September 3, 2017 by Penlan