Castle Aching

[Hroth]

10 minutes ago, Regularity said:

Have your say on the BBC is always good for that...

 

Frothing at the brain a speciality.....

 

Spent the afternoon socially distancing at the street party then came home for tea.  Couple of good programmes on BBC 4 from 7pm, Classic Cellists at the BBC (Paul Tortelier, Jacqueline du Pre, Mstislav Rostropovich, Yo Yo Ma, Steven Isserlis etc) and Tunes for Tyrants, exploring the use, abuse and manipulation of music in WWII.

 

I'll catch up the Queens Speech on iPlayer.....

 

Talking of Queen, I heard today that Brian May has pulled his gluteus maximus whilst gardening*.  Sounds like a perfect reason not to do any gardening at all!

 

 

* Evidently very painful and not something to be taken sitting down, as it were...

 

Edited May 8, 2020 by Hroth
Just.....

[monkeysarefun]

10 hours ago, Edwardian said:

Thinking of Annie's Titanic analogy, I am reminded that it was a transatlantic service, I I do not believe the Titanic picture she posted adequately reflects the comments overhead on life boats predominately manned by Brits ....

 

"I say, look, I know we didn't change course in time, or order enough lifeboats, oars, life jackets and so forth, but we're guided by the navigation charts and everything will be fine"

 

"Everyone! Don't rock the boat, protect the White Star Line's insurers, save premiums"

 

"'Ere, you looked like you're enjoying the view; you're nicked!"

 

"Ignore the Belgian in that boat over there; we will still be able to finish re-arranging the deckchairs before 31st December"

 

"Well, the poor Captain was struck down by that horrid iceberg, so I now no longer consider him to be an incompetence self-aggrandising buffoon.  In fact, he's my hero and can do no wrong. I'd follow him to the gates of Hell"

 

"You probably will" 

 

Meanwhile, a party of German passengers, replete with flotation devices, organised a motor launch to take them to a waiting U Boat.

 

 

 

 

..And back inside  the Titanic there is a bunch of US Trump voters drilling holes in the bottom to let the water out.

Edited May 8, 2020 by monkeysarefun

[Malcolm 0-6-0]

And I note on the news this morning there's been another Covid-19 case in the US government. A press aide of the the VP.

 

The official announcement said that no one was concerned about it, which probably just about sums it all up when you think about it. 

[Malcolm 0-6-0]

11 hours ago, wagonman said:

There is archaeological evidence that neolithic groups cared for, and even cherished, crippled members of their tribe. As Simon said, it's compassion and cooperation that have allowed Hom Sap to become the dominant species on the planet. Hopefully the same traits will also stop it from destroying said planet...

 

 

 

Well there's evidence going back to the Neanderthal period of similar "caring" traits, both in burial practices and also in the case of a male who had suffered a broken leg which would have prevented them from hunting or gathering food so their survival until the break healed shows that the band looked after them. However whether or not caring behaviour is going to save the species is probably moot because in genetic terms species have a limited shelf life, which explains why there are so many extinct species than cannot be explained by simple catastrophes or other short term things such as disease.

 

If the planet is still functioning in a couple of million years I would say that H0mo Sapiens as we understand ourselves will have become extinct through this genetic ageing and replaced by another species altogether. Whether that species evolves because of altruistic behavioural traits is also unpredictable. It works for H0mo Sapiens but does it work for other species, even a descendent species of ourselves? We can't say. Insects like ants, termites etc. are supremely cooperative however they are not altruistic in any sense we would understand because their genetic imperative is concentrated entirely upon creating a species in which the entire population is as much an individual as each of its members.      

 

Our host drew our attention to the last experiment in non-altruistic human behaviour where the cooperative trait in altruism was restricted to one group in the population and which failed. That failure, however, was not because of the lack of altruism but because they adopted an export drive that was not welcomed by the potential customers. On the other hand similar experiments in selective altruism applied only to approved people in China and Nth Korea are functioning quite well, presumably because they are not seeking to export the behaviour.

 

In the end for our species it is not what works best for the species as a whole, but what works best for each sub-population of the species that is our dominant behavioural trait. Obviously such a behaviour in a species is counterproductive for the species as a whole, and in our case the internecine conflict between our sub-populations is clear evidence of that. So is H0mo Sapiens in its current form a species that can survive in the reality of genetic time which is of a vaster scale than individual human time? I doubt it unless the irremediable damage created by this internecine conflict trait is recognised and controlled. There have been efforts to achieve this but whenever some progress is made one sub-population or another gets another rush of populistic nationalistic fervour and we are back to square one. I can't see that changing. 

 

     

Edited May 9, 2020 by Malcolm 0-6-0
clarity - the automatic censor doesn't like h*mo so I substituted a 0

[St Enodoc]

19 hours ago, Edwardian said:

Thinking of Annie's Titanic analogy, I am reminded that it was a transatlantic service, I I do not believe the Titanic picture she posted adequately reflects the comments overhead on life boats predominately manned by Brits ....

 

"I say, look, I know we didn't change course in time, or order enough lifeboats, oars, life jackets and so forth, but we're guided by the navigation charts and everything will be fine"

 

"Everyone! Don't rock the boat, protect the White Star Line's insurers, save premiums"

 

"'Ere, you looked like you're enjoying the view; you're nicked!"

 

"Ignore the Belgian in that boat over there; we will still be able to finish re-arranging the deckchairs before 31st December"

 

"Well, the poor Captain was struck down by that horrid iceberg, so I now no longer consider him to be an incompetence self-aggrandising buffoon.  In fact, he's my hero and can do no wrong. I'd follow him to the gates of Hell"

 

"You probably will" 

 

Meanwhile, a party of German passengers, replete with flotation devices, organised a motor launch to take them to a waiting U Boat.

 

 

 

 

And, unfortunately still all too common nowadays, "We complied with the standard so if it goes wrong it's not our fault".

[Hroth]

2 minutes ago, St Enodoc said:

And, unfortunately still all too common nowadays, "We complied with the standard so if it goes wrong it's not our fault".

 

Then as now, all cost based.  "We have x to build and equip this thing. The standard says we need do y so y is what we do, as cheaply as possible. Doing z, as cheaply as possible will take us over budget or have a cost effect on other design parameters, so we'll do y."

 

Of course "x" may be inappropriately low because it was the lowest tender. So there will be later cost over-runs and skimping on quality, not the cheapest acceptable stuff, but the cheapest rubbish.

 

So we end up with the Tay bridge, the Titanic and so on.

In the current situation, it results in dangerously inadequate PPE being bought in on spec, wasting money and potentially putting life at risk.

 

[Edwardian]

45 minutes ago, Hroth said:

 

Then as now, all cost based.  "We have x to build and equip this thing. The standard says we need do y so y is what we do, as cheaply as possible. Doing z, as cheaply as possible will take us over budget or have a cost effect on other design parameters, so we'll do y."

 

Of course "x" may be inappropriately low because it was the lowest tender. So there will be later cost over-runs and skimping on quality, not the cheapest acceptable stuff, but the cheapest rubbish.

 

So we end up with the Tay bridge, the Titanic and so on.

In the current situation, it results in dangerously inadequate PPE being bought in on spec, wasting money and potentially putting life at risk.

 

 

With the present crisis, something of a false economy, as matters turned out.

 

To get us in the mood for the PM's Grand Announcement tomorrow ...

 

 

 

 

[martinT]

6 hours ago, Malcolm 0-6-0 said:

 

If the planet is still functioning in a couple of million years I would say that H0mo Sapiens as we understand ourselves will have become extinct through this genetic ageing and replaced by another species altogether. 

 

EMmo Sapiens?

[Edwardian]

2 minutes ago, martinT said:

 

EMmo Sapiens?

 

Wide Boys

[Hroth]

32 minutes ago, martinT said:

EMmo Sapiens?

 

29 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

Wide Boys

 

Nahhh....  By then it'd definitely be Pefomo Sapiens.

[CKPR]

17 hours ago, wagonman said:

There is archaeological evidence that neolithic groups cared for, and even cherished, crippled members of their tribe. As Simon said, it's compassion and cooperation that have allowed Hom Sap to become the dominant species on the planet. Hopefully the same traits will also stop it from destroying said planet...

 

 

I was just about to post the very same - as a clinical psychologist, I've always worked in the field of what we now know to be genetic neurodevelopmental disorders and when teaching, I have used this very example coupled with a discussion of the 'is/ought' distinction in evolutionary theory.

[Annie]

If there were Murder Hornets or zombies or Martian walking machines armed with death rays outside people would be staying indoors with enthusiasm, but because it's an invisible deadly disease people get daft ideas in their heads like, 'I won't catch it' or 'It only kills left handed people'  or 'It's all a government plot'..... and etc.   As for people who say, '(insert name of appropriate deity here) will save me.' I really do wonder.  Having faith is one thing, but being stupid is not something (insert name of appropriate deity here) can save you from.

 

[Hroth]

Murder Hornets are definitely a bad thing, its not just that they can kill humans, they attack whole colonies of honey bees who's bodies are fed to the Hornets young.

 

They're big too, BIG!

 

 

[Donw]

4 hours ago, Hroth said:

 

Then as now, all cost based.  "We have x to build and equip this thing. The standard says we need do y so y is what we do, as cheaply as possible. Doing z, as cheaply as possible will take us over budget or have a cost effect on other design parameters, so we'll do y."

 

Of course "x" may be inappropriately low because it was the lowest tender. So there will be later cost over-runs and skimping on quality, not the cheapest acceptable stuff, but the cheapest rubbish.

 

So we end up with the Tay bridge, the Titanic and so on.

In the current situation, it results in dangerously inadequate PPE being bought in on spec, wasting money and potentially putting life at risk.

 

 

One of the problems is everthing is done through layers of management. If you ask someone working at the coalface they can tell you what is needed but by the time it goes through layers of management the truth often gets lost.

I remember when I was designing domestic items. We were discussing a new cooker hood with marketing. Why can't you design one as good as the German ones they asked. We can we said  if you increase the production price.  We cannot do that the public won't buy it. Well they buy the German ones.  Well they have a reputation for quality. Doh!

Also when I was developing software Management would provide a specification for what they wanted. Not being a believing sort of chap I would sit down with the staff members especially the clerical assistance to really understand what was needed. Managers rarely understood how things were actually run in their department.

Think about the Sir Humpries of this world a minister would not be allowed to get near anybody who would tell them the truth. If we do throw money at problems we often seem to just get expensive rubbish.

 

Don

 

 

 

 

[Nearholmer]

I think you maybe being a tiny bit harsh Annie.

It is actually quite a mental stretch to remain necessarily terrified for months on end of something that you can’t see, has done no harm to anyone you know, and no harm to anyone in your immediate neighbourhood, which is the practical experience (thankfully) for many.

 

Its actually a mental tussle between what you are being told, and what you can see with your own eyes, with the added spice that what you are being told you’d rather not have to believe, because it’s horrible.

 

The more distant the threat, the more dissonance between what you can see and what you are being told, the bigger the struggle.

 

We like to mock Americans (well, I do) over all this, but it wasn’t long ago when everyone in the UK thought this was and ‘Italian problem’, and wouldn’t have countenanced a lock-down against it, yet Italy is closer to us by some margin than New York is to mid-US. 
 

The prime lockdown flouters here seem to be young blokes, because they are naturally risk-takers, objectively at low risk of the worst outcome, and have a notoriously under-developed sense of community responsibility. Any honest male will tell you that they were just the same at that age - during wartime these are the guys who are lauded for their bravery, which is just another name for their willingness to take insane risks! And ride powerful motorbikes.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 9, 2020 by Nearholmer

[Donw]

This caring compassion thing worked very well at a tribal level. You knew who were the decent honest people who deserved support. Those had never done a thing for anyone else might find themselves getting a bit less support. It is less effective at national levels. I personally knew of a lot of people who were cheating the benefits or were just simply takers never givers at one time. These days I don't have any contact with them but no doubt they are still there.  People often wil ask is it cheaper for cash when buying services encouraging self employed workes to cheat. I know no system or any person can be perfect but I do feel the level of cheating the system is like a canncer eating at society.

 

Don

[Donw]

6 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

I think you maybe being a tiny bit harsh Annie.

It is actually quite a mental stretch to remain necessarily terrified for months on end of something that you can’t see, has done no harm to anyone you know, and no harm to anyone in your immediate neighbourhood, which is the practical experience (thankfully) for many.

 

Its actually a mental tussle between what you are being told, and what you can see with your own eyes, with the added spice that what you are being told you’d rather not have to believe, because it’s horrible.

 

The more distant the threat, the more dissonance between what you can see and what you are being told, the bigger the struggle.

 

We like to mock Americans (well, I do) over all this, but it wasn’t long ago when everyone in the UK thought this was and ‘Italian problem’, and wouldn’t have countenanced a lock-down against it, yet Italy is closer to us by some margin than New York is to mid-US. 

 

 

 

I think everyone in the UK is a bit of an exaggeration.  Certainly I felt we had failed to protect ourselves immediately it was first identified and that if it had spread from China to Italy and the first cases were here the cat was out of the bag.  The question then was do we choose to let it rip through the populous and get it over with or do we try something else. On careful thought I realised that even if you felt hey lets take a chance I will get over it easily. Should that not be the case or if one had other problems needing medical care then should the NHS be overwhelmed the results could be disastrous. A lot of people are very worked up about the number of deaths but to be honest I think it could have been a lot worse.  I know deaths in care homes are rather high but having had to go into one daily to visit the in laws you realise a lot of the people in them are kept going by the thought of seeing their loved ones as soon as they can. Take that away and many will lose the will to keep going. The ones I feel sorry for are those who are in residential homes with the prospect of a good few years just needing so help with domestic matters. These probably found themselves shut in with others much more susceptable to the virus. Not ideal.

 

Don

[Nearholmer]

19 minutes ago, Donw said:

I think everyone in the UK is a bit of an exaggeration. 

Yes, a bit.

[Annie]

2 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

I think you maybe being a tiny bit harsh Annie.

It is actually quite a mental stretch to remain necessarily terrified for months on end of something that you can’t see, has done no harm to anyone you know, and no harm to anyone in your immediate neighbourhood, which is the practical experience (thankfully) for many.

 

Its actually a mental tussle between what you are being told, and what you can see with your own eyes, with the added spice that what you are being told you’d rather not have to believe, because it’s horrible.

 

The more distant the threat, the more dissonance between what you can see and what you are being told, the bigger the struggle.

 

We like to mock Americans (well, I do) over all this, but it wasn’t long ago when everyone in the UK thought this was and ‘Italian problem’, and wouldn’t have countenanced a lock-down against it, yet Italy is closer to us by some margin than New York is to mid-US. 
 

The prime lockdown flouters here seem to be young blokes, because they are naturally risk-takers, objectively at low risk of the worst outcome, and have a notoriously under-developed sense of community responsibility. Any honest male will tell you that they were just the same at that age - during wartime these are the guys who are lauded for their bravery, which is just another name for their willingness to take insane risks! And ride powerful motorbikes.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Having only one properly working kidney and a damaged liver from a doctor's careless prescribing when I was in my 30s most probably makes me  somewhat more sensitive to the danger Kevin.  Catching a dose of the 'flu knocks me around something awful so I would imagine getting COVID-19 would place me in line for a nice shiny new harp and a free trip into the unknown country.

 

I do agree about young males being risk takers and being willing to do daft things as well as not caring about the 'oldies' (anyone over 30).  Having worked in hospitals I would see the result of this all the time, - especially on the Monday after a weekend.

 

I agree too that psychologically a lockdown is an unnatural state.  Most of the population stays inside, people don't see anybody around them getting ill so they start thinking 'perhaps it's gone now' and they go outside.  I can't really blame them for thinking like that since as you say being in a state of terror/fear is not a natural state either and of itself can lead to other health issues.  Our prime minister advised New Zealanders to think of themselves as already having COVID-19 and not wanting to pass it on to others which I think was a more useful mental vehicle to have instead of the government saying, 'Don't go outside you'll get it.' 

 

I really don't know where all this is going to end up.  The USA is a firestorm that's going to take a long time to burn out and if the King of the Mad is elected for another term (which is looking a lot less likely by the day) a very large number of Americans can kiss their ar$e goodbye, - apart from those who have already done so.  As long as the USA burns nobody can seriously start thinking about opening borders even if more sensible governments have managed to get a lid on things in their own countries.

 

I think it's true enough to say though that nothing is going to be the same again.  The likelihood of a new pandemic virus arising every 5-10 years is fairly high so if governments take no lessons from this COVID-19 outbreak their countries will be paying the Reaper again in the not so distant future.

[Donw]

We do not know yet what the future might be. If this turns out to be something that once you have had the disease you have a lifelong immunity it will effectively be over a some point although there could be problems for new borns.

We may develop a vaccine which can give immunity whether needed just the once or whether needed at regular intervals. 

If on the other hand it is like flu mutating slightly so we need a new vaccine every year or so  or you take your chance on it each year as most adults do. Only the weak are regularly vaccinated against flu.

Or it could be like the common cold where we have never come up with a vaccine but the human race is able to cope with the common cold. If so we are in for a rough time until the population becomes able to cope with corvid19. This could mean that say some people have a genetic weakness to it. Anyone with that genetic strain would be likely to suffer much more with it and be at risk. Gradually that genetic strain could dwindle in the human genome.

Or Corvid 19 might mutate to something which ceases to transmit between us and so becomes a minor issue.

This could take some time to become clear and the response to the disease may be different for different  people.

 

On other thing. I do understand the importance of PPE but it seems some of this stuff is treated as throwaway. Surely we could find greener solutions stuff that could be cleansed for re-use. Not during this crisis obviously but something for the future.

 

Don

[jcredfer]

25 minutes ago, Annie said:

Having only one properly working kidney and a damaged liver from a doctor's careless prescribing when I was in my 30s most probably makes me  somewhat more sensitive to the danger Kevin.  Catching a dose of the 'flu knocks me around something awful so I would imagine getting COVID-19 would place me in line for a nice shiny new harp and a free trip into the unknown country.

 

I do agree about young males being risk takers and being willing to do daft things as well as not caring about the 'oldies' (anyone over 30).  Having worked in hospitals I would see the result of this all the time, - especially on the Monday after a weekend.

 

I agree too that psychologically a lockdown is an unnatural state.  Most of the population stays inside, people don't see anybody around them getting ill so they start thinking 'perhaps it's gone now' and they go outside.  I can't really blame them for thinking like that since as you say being in a state of terror/fear is not a natural state either and of itself can lead to other health issues.  Our prime minister advised New Zealanders to think of themselves as already having COVID-19 and not wanting to pass it on to others which I think was a more useful mental vehicle to have instead of the government saying, 'Don't go outside you'll get it.' 

 

I really don't know where all this is going to end up.  The USA is a firestorm that's going to take a long time to burn out and if the King of the Mad is elected for another term (which is looking a lot less likely by the day) a very large number of Americans can kiss their ar$e goodbye, - apart from those who have already done so.  As long as the USA burns nobody can seriously start thinking about opening borders even if more sensible governments have managed to get a lid on things in their own countries.

 

I think it's true enough to say though that nothing is going to be the same again.  The likelihood of a new pandemic virus arising every 5-10 years is fairly high so if governments take no lessons from this COVID-19 outbreak their countries will be paying the Reaper again in the not so distant future.

 

The likes of the republicans and the musk-rat would be perfectly happy to see the population diminish by quite large numbers, particularly those less able, who get state aid.  It is perfectly possible that the orange king may dither even more than he has, about that.  He is well aware of the sector of the population he winds up for support and even he can't have missed the fact that they are also the most vulnerable to Covid.  The inner conflict in his mind {and those who need him for their wages} must be massive.  The number of republican mantra statements he starts and then backtracks, as he works out the consequences {well - someone tells him} is increasing, as he gets more desperate.  Each day the number of deaths gets bigger, which racks up the pressure and until he is seen to grip the Covid situation, his grasp on a second term gets weaker.  It remains to be seen, what he does about it , with whatever lies he will tell and in the meantime the real cost will be paid in the blood of the people of the US.

 

Julian

 

[lanchester]

18 hours ago, monkeysarefun said:

..And back inside  the Titanic there is a bunch of US Trump voters drilling holes in the bottom to let the water out.

I think this is true: the story is that the US Congress held hearings on the loss of the Titanic, and one Congressman asked "I understand the Titanic was built with many watertight compartments - so why couldn't the passengers just get in to the watertight compartments?"

 

Please let that be a true story - it so ought to be!

[lanchester]

On 08/05/2020 at 13:12, Donw said:

 

The human race is increasingly working against evolution. Many species will give more food to the strongest young because  it is best for the species and the herd may not slow down so the weakest can keep up. We Humans will bend over backwards to help the weak we make special provision for disabled, provide social benefits for those unable to look after themselves or their family. It is a laudable trait but it does reduce the effect of natural selection from working in the best interests of the species. I am sure I would not like to live in a society that allowed the weak, either physically or mentally

weaker, to suffer deliberately.

Don

 

Evolutionary 'progress' (note the quote marks - evolution has no vision of the future so can't 'progress' towards anything, the best it can do is a better fit to the present) is further compromised. As well as natural selection in the sense of favouring traits that leave you alive long enough for successful reproduction, there is sexual selection which means that particular, presumably desirable, traits (like compassion, mebis?) are favoured in the pairing-up process. Unfortunately, since the human male will mate, with consent or without, with anything with a pulse, sexual selection may not really work for the genus . (We'd better do this at genus level, because the sapiens species may already be below the critical population level for survival).

[Annie]

12 minutes ago, lanchester said:

I think this is true: the story is that the US Congress held hearings on the loss of the Titanic, and one Congressman asked "I understand the Titanic was built with many watertight compartments - so why couldn't the passengers just get in to the watertight compartments?"

 

Please let that be a true story - it so ought to be!

 

All the watertight compartments did was slow down the sinking.  Too many compartments in the bow had been opened to the sea by the iceberg so the weight of water in the bow pulled the ship down to the point where water could flood over the top of each compartment in turn.

 

It sounds like the intelligence of many US Congressman hasn't improved any since then.

[Edwardian]

I fear that there is nothing I can say that would be helpful or any less depressing!

 

Or perhaps I can.  Readers will recall that the Estate sent some chaps round a while back to replace our rotten sashes.  They removed the swifts' nest in the corner of our bedroom window.  Yesterday the swifts returned, to find it gone.  I think I heard the swift equivalent of "bloody typical!". Judging by the activity today, however, nothing daunted they're setting about a replacement gaff. They'll neither know nor care whether I'm still here to see their next clutch.  On they go.  I find that strangely reassuring. 

 

And at least we live in the age of freeview TV and internet streaming, so those of us still alive for the time being can keep our minds off things.  If Covid had struck during my childhood, I'd be staring at this all day ...l